Brexit - The UK and the EU

Discussion in 'In The News' started by Fwiffo, Feb 20, 2016.

  1. Pimpernel Smith

    Pimpernel Smith Well-Known Member

    567
    525
    It's about sovereignty, democracy and forging ahead from an ailing EU.

    One is reminded of Margaret Thatcher's warning: ''What we should grasp, however, from the lessons of European history is that, first, there is nothing necessarily benevolent about programmes of European integration; second, the desire to achieve grand utopian plans often poses a grave threat to freedom; and third, European unity has been tried before, and the outcome was far from happy.''
     
  2. OP
    OP
    Fwiffo

    Fwiffo Well-Known Member Supporter

    5,341
    1,724
    That's not true. The Roman Empire was quite happy - for those who benefited from it.

    You're quoting Thatcher. Who should I expect next? John Major?
     
  3. Pimpernel Smith

    Pimpernel Smith Well-Known Member

    567
    525
    Thatcher was right.

    Had to listen and lectured to by some utopian dreamers at lunch today: how wonderful and right Merkel has been as we all should open our borders to the refugees of the world and how wonderful it was in Germany. This was delivered by a German lady who was virtue signalling and taking the moral position that we in Europe need to do just as Merkel tells us to. Then some idiot who was going on about how we in Europe need to have a massive population influx and mega-cities to be able to compete with the rest of the world. The example he gave, as a Spaniard, was the vast areas of Spain which need to be filled. His argument was filling them with refugees was ideal as this would increase GDP massively then we can compete with the mega-cities of the Far East and South America.

    Then they got onto language, which they all agreed was a mere tool, then I had to interject and tell them that when it came to the English language and the English speaking peoples of the world, it was much more than a mere tool.

    That kind of shocked them out of their bewildered state for a moment, a flicker of enlightenment, then it was gone back into a lifestyle choice of superficial middle class virtue signalling.
     
  4. Kingstonian

    Kingstonian Well-Known Member

    446
    210
    It’s all about realpolitik now.

    Can the government deliver a clean, timely Brexit or not?
     
  5. Scherensammler

    Scherensammler Well-Known Member

    2,918
    3,441
    Like Mexico City? Or Sao Paolo? With a similar crime rate as well?
    Who's going to build those cities? Clearly not the refugees!
    All those Merkel/ refugee lovers will soon wake up when they realise that all their savings will eventually disappear and even their neighbourhood will be invaded by folk that's going to blare the wonderful call to prayer at 5.00 am from the nearby minaret.
    Looks like it's more a matter of "do they want to"! More scaremongering every day, tales of certain doom around the customs collapsing, increase of crime (especially arms smuggle) when customs staff will be needed at Dover to deal with all the lorries.
     
  6. Kingstonian

    Kingstonian Well-Known Member

    446
    210
    Are the numbers ‘who want to’ greater than the number who don’t? - if you prefer.

    All sorts of nonsense gets spouted on both sides. A determined and competent leader would simply say ‘JFDI!’.

    Unfortunately we don’t have such a leader.
     
  7. güero

    güero Well-Known Member

    267
    222
    That is at least the more interesting question, because they can't. Very bush league to enter into a negotiation with a fixed deadline, little to no leverage and a near worst case default outcome for oneself if no other agreement ist reached.
     
  8. formby

    formby Well-Known Member

    947
    924
    Britain had 2 options:

    1. Walk away from the EU soon after the result of the referendum. This would have caused considerable turbulence on the markets.

    2. Trigger Article 50, which has a 2 year fixed negotiating period. This can be extended with agreement however.

    To cut the chase, the negotiations are all about money, everything else is a sideshow. The EU will have to make up a shortfall in its budget or curtail some projects for the next few years if Britain walks, its losing its second biggest economy, and second biggest contributor. This shortfall will have to be picked up by the EU (Germany basically). This is Britain's leverage, how much they want, and how much we're willing to pay.

    The EU do not want the UK to leave, why would they want to inflict further damage on an already fragile EU? And if the UK do walk it will be damaged, maybe irreversibly.

    However, the talks haven't yet broken down and this should tell you something.
     
  9. sirloin

    sirloin Well-Known Member

    442
    743
    Hold nu kæft.
     
  10. Kingstonian

    Kingstonian Well-Known Member

    446
    210
    The problems are :-

    1 We have the weakest prime minister I can ever remember. Yet she has been left in place.

    2 I am not sure all of her government are acting in good faith to secure Brexit.

    3 I don’t know if the clean Brexit camp have enough supporters - or even the willingness to force the issue.

    Like most, I have absolutely no idea at all about what is actually going on in this Brexit process.
     
    ConchitaWurst likes this.
  11. formby

    formby Well-Known Member

    947
    924
    Well, you never do with political negotiations. There's always posturing.

    Both sides want a deal of some sort, there wouldn't be negotiations if that were not the case.

    One thing I have noticed however is how the EU negotiators are adopting the tactics/antics of the Trump administration. They seem very active on Twitter, sowing seeds of doubt, as they say.

    That's not a good way to carry on, for either side...
     
  12. Kingstonian

    Kingstonian Well-Known Member

    446
    210
    The EU are the establishment not a Trump administration equivalent.

    So they reach out to the Deep State for support at every opportunity.

    Cue Blair, Clegg, Heseltine, Clark. Helped by the BBC, CBI, Goldman Sachs, Chairman of The Bank of England etc. etc....
     
  13. Pimpernel Smith

    Pimpernel Smith Well-Known Member

    567
    525
    The problem we have, as I see it, are not well travelled academics in comfortable jobs and very little exposure to the dirty, grotty, violent and desperate reality of most of the non-western world. They see not that the generous welfare states will collapse on the current trajectory.

    They cannot perceive anything other than a groovy utopian Europe being forged through the destruction of national identity and culture.

    Whereas they see the creation of the Superman I only see a globalised third and developing world, where western Europe sinks into failure. We are beginning to see this already...

    The facts are simple: the UK cannot afford to be in the EU and the EU cannot afford for the UK not to be.

    With the utopian grandiosity and arrogance of the EU elites, I cannot see any deal other than capitulation and that is why the traitors in the UK must be ousted before the nefarious plans have a chance to succeed.
     
  14. formby

    formby Well-Known Member

    947
    924
    The problem with a lot of academics, too many sadly, is that they, to borrow a phrase from an infamous member of the Bush administration, don't reside in the 'reality-based community' They prefer abstractions. I'm put in mind of the late Garret FitzGerald, then Taoiseach alleged comment to Thatcher: 'That's fine in practice, but will it work in theory?' Always raises a chuckle that one.

    When thinking about some of the characters running the EU, I find George Santayana point useful: 'Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim'

    A deal will be struck.
     
    Pimpernel Smith likes this.
  15. güero

    güero Well-Known Member

    267
    222
    As far as I am told the EU has basically only two major goals: Get as much money as possible to cover the existing obligations of the UK and secure residency/travel rights for its people living in the UK. Which has been negotiated for about a year, with some but little progress. Anything else has not been talked about and is of less relevance for 27 of the 28 parties.

    The EU having to cover the future budget shortfall, the damage on a fragile EU and the possibly irreversal damage on the UK - everything has happened (because the UK will be out at a fixed date) and is already being reflected in the real world outside the political realm. The negotiations can only alleviate a bit here and there, so talks are never going to break down. It is just a very lobsided benefit distribution that is being talked about. Very stupid to do in such a set-up.
     
  16. Pimpernel Smith

    Pimpernel Smith Well-Known Member

    567
    525
    You forget the third: the utter humiliation of the UK.

    They cannot allow this to happen and the UK gain traction for being first out.

    That would be unbearable for the technocratic elite in Brussels. For they know, they would be back working for local councils debating where to put the next refuge tip and arguing over tram routes.
     
  17. Pimpernel Smith

    Pimpernel Smith Well-Known Member

    567
    525
    Can't stop laughing, Merkel's Germany has become ungovernable:

    20171119_eur1.jpg

    From Chairman Mao down to Toxic Hillary and now Merkel: never trust anyone who has a fetish for collarless jackets and those without lapels. It's an indicator of something sinister.
     
  18. Kingstonian

    Kingstonian Well-Known Member

    446
    210
    Collarless jackets served The Beatles well.
     
  19. Kingstonian

    Kingstonian Well-Known Member

    446
    210
    Rumours May poised to offer £40 billion. Madness. She needs to be replaced as PM.
     
  20. Scherensammler

    Scherensammler Well-Known Member

    2,918
    3,441
    And just like all the great leaders she refuses to stand down after this disaster.
    There has been some mild criticism of her in the German media in the past weeks already (for failing at climate protection) so my guess is she is on her way out. Or will be in a few days, hopefully.
    Maybe she clings on to the last hope of staying chancellor by getting the SPD into another big coalition.
    There will be elections in Bavaria (on council level) and it's likely that the CSU will loose big style. It's the councils that are under pressure from migrants put in their communities in all of Germany and the German government in Berlin does little to help them out. Only promises of more money so far.
    Horst Seehofer is under fire already for not being insistent enough regarding Bavarian matters and the party's position regarding uncontrolled mass immigration. Bavaria used to be ultra-conservative in the past with an emphasis on Christian values, especially in the rural areas and the CSU always won the elections big style with a vast majority.
    In the past couple decades or so their majority in the state parliament has gotten smaller and smaller, barely holding on to a minimal, simple majority.
    If Merkel goes, Seehofer goes also. Schäuble did the smart move and made himself president of the German Bundestag.
    Hopefully the Marxist Green Party will get kicked out of every German parliament in the upcoming year.
    They support mass immigration and bringing in the families of asylum seekers. So the less influence they have, the better.
    There is already talk of new elections early next year, not sure if that will happen.

    Why pay that much money to a Mafia-esque organisation? To gain access to the single market? Have the same agreements as now is like having no Brexit. Which is probably the reason for it.
    Looks like the City of London does a lot of lobbying right now.
    The fact that May is fine with the Russia bashing shows who's side she's on. She is no better than Merkel and other globalist's muppets.
    Makes me wonder if Boris Johnson was deliberately given false information about that "British" woman held captive in Iran to keep him away from the PM post. Westminster more and more resembles a snake pit.
     
  21. formby

    formby Well-Known Member

    947
    924
    Mmmm,

    If Britain has made financial commitments then it should honour them. You shouldn't just walk away leaving others to make up the shortfall. However, you can't write a blank cheque either.

    There's enough financial expertise in Britain and the EU to work out what Britain's financial commitments / liabilities are.
     
    sirloin likes this.
  22. Kingstonian

    Kingstonian Well-Known Member

    446
    210
    Gilbert and George are Brexiteers

    “What did you think of Brexit? The art world is global; your art career is global. Do you think England is turning away from the world?

    George: It's not true. Every gallery is moving to England. All the Germans and the Americans are opening there.
    Gilbert: They are no big galleries in Germany or France. They are all in London. For all this talk of Little England there is no city that's as cosmopolitan as London. If you go to Germany you get German food. If you go to Italy you get Italian food. But in London you get everything. England loves Europe but they don't like the system of the United States of Europe. They never wanted that.
    George: It was going to get worse anyway if we didn't leave. They wanted a central bank and a central taxing system. It was going to lead to armed warfare or something.
    Gilbert: It is only Germany that's successful. Italy is bankrupt, Spain is bankrupt, Portugal is bankrupt. People only know one name: Merkel.

    And what of Trump?

    George: I understand him very well. He reminds me of—who's that American who plays the piano
    Gilbert: Liberace.
    George: Yes. He's camp. The art world is madly opposed to him of course. We tell them to calm down. The people who are against them always need a witch anyway. If it wasn't Trump it would be someone else.
    Gilbert: He didn't kill anybody yet. Did he?

    But his supporters also need a witch. They found one in Hillary Clinton.

    Gilbert: The world is more polarized, yes. Intolerant liberals, we call them. We always have that problem in the art world. They are always accusing us of how we have black people in our art or only men in our art or nationalism in our art.
    George: The frowning classes, the middle classes, get upset. The lower classes and the aristocrats are always fine with everything.
    Gilbert: We made an art that maybe 80 percent of collectors wouldn't touch. Even now when we make Naked Shit pictures, they like the pictures, but they wouldn't be able to put them up in their houses.

    I think many people here voted for Trump as a defiant gesture.

    George: We're not against him, that's all I have to say. It's exciting.“

    Two of the most important benders in Britain
    https://vimeo.com/60082289
     
    Pimpernel Smith likes this.
  23. Pimpernel Smith

    Pimpernel Smith Well-Known Member

    567
    525
    Can't fault them, always knew they had talent:

    prt273561.jpg