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Pimpernel Smith

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I got the offer. Smaller insurance firm. They marginally beat my current pay although pension contributions are way better. Maybe 5 or 6 staff compared to the 25-30 I have now. Still in the financial district. I'm tortured whether I should keep interviewing and hold out for better before my title is taken away in my current firm.
Never wait until your title and kudos are ripped from your grasp....

Sounds like a winner: less people = less problems. More money and better pension. What's not to like?

A smaller organisation may mean more control, more authority and you'll be more appreciated and get things done a lot quicker. Of course, not everyone suits smaller business units and for some the large city size corporate entity is ideal.
 

Fwiffo

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Never wait until your title and kudos are ripped from your grasp....

Sounds like a winner: less people = less problems. More money and better pension. What's not to like?

A smaller organisation may mean more control, more authority and you'll be more appreciated and get things done a lot quicker. Of course, not everyone suits smaller business units and for some the large city size corporate entity is ideal.
You sound like 1/3 of the people I speak to - more money, same title, less work - win win win. That's not really the same to me.

I like big organizations because it comes with big problems and a lot of bureaucracy to wade through.

fwiffo - as I've told you before - my motto is "Better To Be King of The Shits than The Shit of Kings"
You keep saying that.

They asked me to ring them back after my initial declination, and were prepared to offer more money and I said no. I actually feel like a wanker for turning them down again. They said in their decade of being stationed in this country as a branch of the head office, no one has ever declined them.
 

Thruth

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You sound like 1/3 of the people I speak to - more money, same title, less work - win win win. That's not really the same to me.

I like big organizations because it comes with big problems and a lot of bureaucracy to wade through.



You keep saying that.

They asked me to ring them back after my initial declination, and were prepared to offer more money and I said no. I actually feel like a wanker for turning them down again. They said in their decade of being stationed in this country as a branch of the head office, no one has ever declined them.
So now I am confused. You wanted title, money but it must be wrapped in big bureaucracy. Aren't you in the position you are in because of your firm's bureaucracy?

I'm with fxh fxh in thinking the offer from the small firm is a good move.

But only you know what you really want.
 

Fwiffo

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So now I am confused. You wanted title, money but it must be wrapped in big bureaucracy. Aren't you in the position you are in because of your firm's bureaucracy?

I'm with fxh fxh in thinking the offer from the small firm is a good move.

But only you know what you really want.
I am getting demoted at my big firm. If I wasn't demoted, I'd probably stay for a bit to see how this reorganization pans out.
 

Thruth

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I am getting demoted at my big firm. If I wasn't demoted, I'd probably stay for a bit to see how this reorganization pans out.
Understood, but you had a solution in hand - save for the bureaucracy bit - and from that perspective it gave you what you wanted.
 

Fwiffo

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Understood, but you had a solution in hand - save for the bureaucracy bit - and from that perspective it gave you what you wanted.
I could have went to a small firm but it wouldn't help me be considered later on for larger firms. I know I can fix this operation in 2 years, but then where do I go? They were looking for a successor to their VP and frankly leaving when you're being groomed as a successor would be accepting the job in bad faith.

If my title was taken away last week and I was given something I was doing more than a decade ago, I'd jump. I have some luxury right now to check off all my boxes. I'm not desperate just yet. Four months from now - probably.
 
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Thruth

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I could have went to a small firm but it wouldn't help me be considered later on for larger firms. I know I can fix this operation in 2 years, but then where do I go? They were looking for a successor to their VP and frankly leaving when you're being groomed as a successor would be accepting the job in bad faith.

If my title was taken away last week and I was given something I was doing more than a decade ago, I'd jump. I have some luxury right now to check off all my boxes. I'm not desperate just yet. Four months from now - probably.
who was looking for the VP succession? your firm or the other one. If it is your firm, are you in the queue for that and how does that resonate with your demotion.

If it is the little firm, organizations always deal with upward moves
 

Fwiffo

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who was looking for the VP succession? your firm or the other one. If it is your firm, are you in the queue for that and how does that resonate with your demotion.

If it is the little firm, organizations always deal with upward moves
The little firm. The only good thing about the small firm is they are growing so likely to add people in the next few years. I've been with firms when they need to cut costs and shrink and that's not fun. They're clearly not like that.

In my current firm, there are only 37 people management positions including the CxO in my division. There are 1,000 people in the division. Nearly half the people management positions are reserved for new blood outside of the company so I'm out of luck when it comes to continuing my people management career here.
 

Thruth

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The little firm. The only good thing about the small firm is they are growing so likely to add people in the next few years. I've been with firms when they need to cut costs and shrink and that's not fun. They're clearly not like that.

In my current firm, there are only 37 people management positions including the CxO in my division. There are 1,000 people in the division. Nearly half the people management positions are reserved for new blood outside of the company so I'm out of luck when it comes to continuing my people management career here.
...and you turned down the little guys....title.....$$$......VP succession path........
 

Thruth

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VP in a 50 person firm? Or wait, 100 people if it grows beyond its wildest imagination when I get there?
What is your point? You mentioned VP succession. Now it isn't on or you can't fathom being a VP of an organization of 50?
 

Fwiffo

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What is your point? You mentioned VP succession. Now it isn't on or you can't fathom being a VP of an organization of 50?
That's an overinflated title. Just like any director who isn't managing people managers. I could be president of a company if make my own business too, but does it have any cachet?
 

Thruth

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That's an overinflated title. Just like any director who isn't managing people managers. I could be president of a company if make my own business too, but does it have any cachet?
It provides you with a springboard with other firms when the time comes. VP > director regardless of size. Different cone of silence privileges. You take an opportunity and run with it. Or not.
 

Fwiffo

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It provides you with a springboard with other firms when the time comes. VP > director regardless of size. Different cone of silence privileges. You take an opportunity and run with it. Or not.
That's what my father said, but I have big five banks looking at me because of the team size I manage now. If I manage a 5 person team, I won't. Plus in a small firm I can't carry over my old staff. Maybe 1 staff at the most. And I have coterie of friends and family working for me now.

Where the hell were you last Thursday when I was struggling with this all night and into the next day? It's too late to renege now.
 

Thruth

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That's what my father said, but I have big five banks looking at me because of the team size I manage now. If I manage a 5 person team, I won't. Plus in a small firm I can't carry over my old staff. Maybe 1 staff at the most. And I have coterie of friends and family working for me now.

Where the hell were you last Thursday when I was struggling with this all night and into the next day? It's too late to renege now.
Its never too late to tell them you reconsidered and are wondering if the job is open. Door is probably shut but you never know. Unless they hired someone after you spurned them.

Were you stressing last Thursday over it? Were you doing it on DW chat? I never go in there anymore.

And I have coterie of friends and family working for me now.

^ this will drag you down in any senior leadership role.
 

Fwiffo

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Its never too late to tell them you reconsidered and are wondering if the job is open. Door is probably shut but you never know. Unless they hired someone after you spurned them.

Were you stressing last Thursday over it? Were you doing it on DW chat? I never go in there anymore.

And I have coterie of friends and family working for me now.

^ this will drag you down in any senior leadership role.
Yes - I was. Doghouse kept telling me to shoot for the stars so I heeded some of his advice. If in 4 months the demotion really takes into effect, I can get an offer from an insurance firm managing less than 10 individual contributors any day. One byproduct of looking for work for the past 4 months is I am a lot sharper at interviewing and customizing my CV for each role. I'm not exactly damaged goods here.

The only ones besides you to suggest I take the job was Michelle the bartender and this other woman. Both said it is a fresh start, I'm obviously tired of the current scenery and it'll likely be less hectic at least in the beginning.

I am in a position to invent openings and fill them. I hire well. Sometimes I have the odd position I can fill solely on personal ties. I don't see it as unethical. Perhaps I am Middle Eastern in my sensibilities.
 

Thruth

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Yes - I was. Doghouse kept telling me to shoot for the stars so I heeded some of his advice. If in 4 months the demotion really takes into effect, I can get an offer from an insurance firm managing less than 10 individual contributors any day. One byproduct of looking for work for the past 4 months is I am a lot sharper at interviewing and customizing my CV for each role. I'm not exactly damaged goods here.

The only ones besides you to suggest I take the job was Michelle the bartender and this other woman. Both said it is a fresh start, I'm obviously tired of the current scenery and it'll likely be less hectic at least in the beginning.

I am in a position to invent openings and fill them. I hire well. Sometimes I have the odd position I can fill solely on personal ties. I don't see it as unethical. Perhaps I am Middle Eastern in my sensibilities.
Not unethical. Difficult. When you move higher it puts more stress on the relationship(s). You have to learn no one is your friend.

The advice I was given by other senior leaders before applying and when I was considering the CEO offer was the job is challenging and it is the loneliest job in the world. I got the gist what they were saying but it was a bit lost on me because I don't need any work pals.
 

Fwiffo

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Not unethical. Difficult. When you move higher it puts more stress on the relationship(s). You have to learn no one is your friend.

The advice I was given by other senior leaders before applying and when I was considering the CEO offer was the job is challenging and it is the loneliest job in the world. I got the gist what they were saying but it was a bit lost on me because I don't need any work pals.
I have one mate at work whom I will keep in touch with on a personal basis. I invented a job for my lady friend's sister because she was straight out of school. I do a lot of charitable work that way. No interviews since I don't interview people I already know.

I don't want to be C suite for that reason. That's why I don't even want to be VP. I sat in a corner office when I was in Atlanta when the CxO was fired and I stepped in his shoes temporarily. The sheer amount of trivial crap that corner office attracted was astounding.

Yeah I remember you gave up a leadership role to be regular person. I'm not exactly of age to give up a challenge to take it easy. I should be challenging myself at this age.
 

Thruth

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I have one mate at work whom I will keep in touch with on a personal basis. I invented a job for my lady friend's sister because she was straight out of school. I do a lot of charitable work that way. No interviews since I don't interview people I already know.

I don't want to be C suite for that reason. That's why I don't even want to be VP. I sat in a corner office when I was in Atlanta when the CxO was fired and I stepped in his shoes temporarily. The sheer amount of trivial crap that corner office attracted was astounding.

Yeah I remember you gave up a leadership role to be regular person. I'm not exactly of age to give up a challenge to take it easy. I should be challenging myself at this age.
I gave up banging my head on my desk for a different desk to bang my head on. I did not go from a challenging position to an unchallenging one. I'm a director-type like you now. I took that on instead of a year off because there was a gap that could not b field by an external.

But if what you find challenging is at your current level, that is fine. Only you know what you want. All I am saying is that if you moved to the VP it would be challenging and for some old and some new reasons.

I also do not know your industry so I can only give general opinions.

If you had taken th VP gig would you have been a young VP, normal aged VP? Certainly not an old VP.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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And I have coterie of friends and family working for me now.

^ this will drag you down in any senior leadership role.
It's a complete no-no in the modern organisation. It will stave off your career chances and behind your back everyone will be saying you're bent and draw undue scrutiny. Of course there are exceptions.....

I try and keep a distance between me, the office staff and consultants as once they see a spark of empathy they're wanting fireside chats and the like and soon you're like an agony aunt. With the continued globalisation of business, we experience the face-to-face going from our industry. It's remote business centres across the globe in different time zones with people you've never met or even spoke to, but you have million dollar contracts with.
 

fxh

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Fwiffs - I don't understand you but I particularly don't understand your workplace. Its a huge (inter) nation state that allows (encourages?) drinking on the job and allows nepotism (corruption?)to flourish.
 

Fwiffo

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But if what you find challenging is at your current level, that is fine. Only you know what you want. All I am saying is that if you moved to the VP it would be challenging and for some old and some new reasons.

If you had taken th VP gig would you have been a young VP, normal aged VP? Certainly not an old VP.
Young. I don't think it's even credible to be an executive if you're my age unless you are on a fast track or you're heir to the firm.

I don't want to go so high because of self-preservation. I don't like going out the door whenever there is a regime change at the top.
 

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It's a complete no-no in the modern organisation. It will stave off your career chances and behind your back everyone will be saying you're bent and draw undue scrutiny. Of course there are exceptions.....
I'm bent? I was told I have no moral compass by a peer. As I always say to vendors I'm very susceptible to bribes.
 

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Fwiffs - I don't understand you but I particularly don't understand your workplace. Its a huge (inter) nation state that allows (encourages?) drinking on the job and allows nepotism (corruption?)to flourish.
Drinking on the job - I think that's more the industry. Nepotism. Well, it hurts less coming from you. It does hurt more when a Russian mate of mine says you're the embodiment of nepotism given the current state of Putin led Russia.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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I'm bent? I was told I have no moral compass by a peer. As I always say to vendors I'm very susceptible to bribes.
Against some organisations code of ethics, then employing someone not on the basis of talent, or credentials and previous track record, but on the fact that they are your friend or relation would indeed be classed as unethical. Doubly so for inventing a position for them.
 

Fwiffo

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Against some organisations code of ethics, then employing someone not on the basis of talent, or credentials and previous track record, but on the fact that they are your friend or relation would indeed be classed as unethical. Doubly so for inventing a position for them.
Officially I passed all those. Code of conduct, ethics, anti-corruption but all by answering against my base nature of not donating personal funds to a vendor's child's charitable event, accepting sports event tickets, conveniently revealing competitor RFP details, sham interviews, etc. The most difficult to pass was the in person respect your peers because I had to behave prim and proper and not say things like, "If we don't achieve this, you better start brushing up your resignation letter because you're handing it in at the end of the year right after I hand in mine."
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Officially I passed all those. Code of conduct, ethics, anti-corruption but all by answering against my base nature of not donating personal funds to a vendor's child's charitable event, accepting sports event tickets, conveniently revealing competitor RFP details, sham interviews, etc. The most difficult to pass was the in person respect your peers because I had to behave prim and proper and not say things like, "If we don't achieve this, you better start brushing up your resignation letter because you're handing it in at the end of the year right after I hand in mine."
And not forgetting the completely confidential 24hr anti-corruption hotline that you can ring and ensure your own demise whilst those running the scam will be asked to leave quietly without prosecution as any rigorous attempt to get the money back will only be bad publicity and lead to a shareholder revolt.

We have a diversity policy, which I refused to sign onto, being that I base my recruitment on talent and ability, regardless of colour, creed, religion, demographic, or perceived grievance group. I have no interest in a diverse team based on race, gender expression or sexual orientation. Diversity may be your strength, but in business you want a team of talent based on ability, professionalism and character.
 

Fwiffo

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Wealth management arm of insurance firm - AVP position - got past round 2 I think.

Pure wealth management firm - Director position - waiting for round 3.

Travel insurance firm - doing rund 3 and 4 telephone interviews from across the pond tomorrow.
 

Fwiffo

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So if you are asking for a pay rise is it better to nominate a number or wait for 'the man' to come up with something?
At your current job? I've never asked for one. People either keep promoting me, gifting me massive bonuses or giving me merit increases.
 

Dropbear

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I’ve always nominated percentage. I’ll lay out the evidence of what I’ve brought to the org and then say that an x% raise is saving them money by keeping me another year.
 

The Ernesto

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At your current job? I've never asked for one. People either keep promoting me, gifting me massive bonuses or giving me merit increases.
Yes, current job. I've never asked before either. I get an automatic increase each year.

I’ve always nominated percentage. I’ll lay out the evidence of what I’ve brought to the org and then say that an x% raise is saving them money by keeping me another year.
That's a very good idea, thanks. I've been asked to produce a one pager showing why I should get it.
 

fxh

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Negotiations you never back yourself into a corner . I had a mate who’d always do well by saying

“ I’d like/deserve a raise but I have no idea how it’s done here or if it would be rude to ask. Can you give me some guidelines of how it’s done here and what is the sort of range that you work within”
 

fxh

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The other way is when you negotiate your contract. Think of what you want that’s not cash. Before tax deductions are good. Things like 6 weeks recreation leave instead of 4. Doesn’t cost them anymore. One overseas high level conference each year. (A very Oz thing worth more here) . If it’s a NFP there’s more stuff. Fuel card.
 

Fwiffo

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What a small world. When I left London, a year later another American from Chicago who was in charge of distribution and marketing took over the company's European office. A few years after I left the American company's Toronto office, he transferred from London to Canada to head up my former coworkers. Then last year he returned to Chicago. Now he joins my current firm and took over one of the subsidiaries based in Illinois.

The office responsible for back office for this subsidiary is already staffed with people from our old company (they left right when I started out of uni). When I joined this German firm, I discovered the company I was working with the most in Atlanta bought the life reinsurance business off my old firm. Musical chairs.
 

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Since the beginning of August I had one rejection, and hey you can try for our manager opening. And I had one telephone screen for a position up town.

Five months and a bit now looking for work.
 

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In some insane twist of humour, I got promoted to manager again. I didn't notice until someone said I moved up in the organization chart. Retracing my steps from a decade ago - brilliant.
 
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