THE TOTALLY AWESOME EXPLANATION OF HOW PATTERNS WORK AND AFFECT THE FIT!!!!!

Russell Street

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All right, it's like we're back in the heyday of the clothing fora when real information was exchanged and you actually learned stuff! I really wish that gufasd was here to see this, as he had this idea that tailoring was just length and width and how hard could it be? There's way more to it.
 

LKP

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cannot see most of the pictures at work
but i think i know what you're doing there

i also like that my term COLLO AMERICANO is being used
once more for everybody
it is called collo americano
because america is the land of the free
and this collar is free-floating
 

LelandJ

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The most crucial one, however, is the vertical balance, which is based on your posture:



Patterns are made for the standard figure, so any deviation from that is going to cause more or less a fit issue.

1) Erect: Here the back is shorter and the chest longer/ fuller. On this figure type a normal jacket, when buttoned, will pout at the chest and the fronts will tend to overlap at the bottom and there might also be a neck fold under the collar. When unbuttoned the fronts will swing open.
A bespoke tailor will adjust the pattern in a way similar to this:



The chest of the fronts gets opened to make it wider and longer, while the back gets shortened and narrowed.



This "erect" position as pictured above is closer to a healthier, proper posture than the "normal" one shown. I have couple decades of elite martial arts training as my reference point.
 

Journeyman

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"Normal" has changed over the last decades. Today the stooping figures are more common than the average one shown in the diagram (which is defined by the axis going through the centre of the body).
Add to that an overall more obese and taller population compared to pre-WW2.
Very true.

Unfortunately, the average person working in a clothing store knows very, very little about how to fit a suit properly and so nowadays the default advice (at least before this recent trend of very skinny suits) is typically to wear a suit that is too large. I've been told that I look good even when I'm trying on a jacket that projects an inch from each shoulder and, when I've questioned the fit, I've been told that it's good, because it "allows me to move".
 

robertito

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From what I can read, are you advocating for the use of drape to give us more comfort when wearing a jacket? (back width= drape at the back)


As you can see, both elements, front and back of a jacket, need to be well proportioned and in relation to each other.
A loose jacket will have the range of movement in the back, but will restrict you by having too much material against your shoulder in the front. The close fitting jacket won't hit your shoulders in the front, but will restrict you in the back.
So all the elements of the upper part of a jacket play a role in comfort and good fit. These are the points to look out for:
Have a look at how jackets behave when you (or someone else around you) move the arms up or forward. Do the sleeves get much shorter and/ or do they lift the entire jacket? Does the back of the jacket ride up and creates a little fold at the neck? Does the front of the armhole rest on your biceps?
I have exactly the same problem with a custom jacket (one of my first ones) I always thought that was a matter of wrong armhole position (something like a off-pitch armhole), Are you saying that if I increase the back width through the back seam (I have a lot of extra fabric there) I would be able to solve the issue?I
 

LelandJ

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I've never contemplated armhole pitch/shape and it being a distinct issue from sleeve pitch, good post.

I really wonder why so many RTW brands have Boglioli sleeves where the only way you don't see pulling is if your arms are positioned like so:

 

LelandJ

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Noodles standing well enough here, arms relaxed, and you can see pulling on both sleeves with forward pitched sleeves. I call it Boglioli because they're one of the worst offenders.

 

Rambo

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Ok, all the OT posts have been moved from this thread. Let's keep this discussion on track in here. As this thread is a wonderful resource and Scherensammler Scherensammler has gone to great lengths to prepare this material for all of us, we will be heavily moderating this to keep out any discussions that veer off topic.
 

LelandJ

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Not necessarily wrong. Des knows his stuff and that tailor's stand has a thick neck. So if this customer has a thinner neck and a stooping posture it would mean the sleeve goes forward.
This would be a severe hunchback posture which itself would look worse than any jacket tailored for it.
 

LelandJ

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Looking at your animation X sleeve is nearly parallel to front quarter. Merrion's client jacket pictured has a bigger angle than your X3. I said his client has a hunchback, not the mannequin. I'll rephrase here - the client's posture looks worse than any jacket that could be tailored for him.
 

robertito

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There needs to be a certain amount of ease between armhole and blades to allow for comfort when reaching forward. How much ease depends on how much the back flexes and how wide the shoulders are or need to be.
Also, and this shows how difficult it can be to get this right, shoulder and back can be perfectly fine and correct in width, but the back might still be restrictive.
One reason for that can be the size or the shape of the armhole. A good armhole follows the shape of the body (see arrow):



When the shape is wrong, like indicated by the dotted red line:



it creates a shortness at the bottom of the armhole, resulting in this:



One remedy for this is to change the shape of the armhole:



or, if that's not possible, to add that amount of fullness to the under sleeve.



robertito robertito , feel free to post a picture of that coat, maybe we can sort it out.
There you have:
Quite an old jacket (6 years?) didnt know that it fit me so badly. :) my wife took the pics but the one sideways are a disaster. Happy to take more if you want.
 
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robertito

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OK, lets start with the obvious: It's very, very tight. Must have shrunk at the dry cleaners.
When you open the front button, how much do the fronts open/ gape? That is usually a good indicator for how much is missing.
Is this full bespoke or MTM/RTW?

Are there pads in the shoulders? It's hard to tell what's going on with the sleeves, because the jacket doesn't sit right, especially in the back. But from the last image it seems they are a bit narrow and tight in the crown (not enough ease, more later). The crown appears to be on the slightly too long side. Narrow and long makes the crown push up the cloth like it does in your case.
As I said it is an old jacket and I have put on about 4kgs/8 pounds since I got it. I also took it only once to the cleaners so I dont know if it has shrunk or not. What I can say is that it doesn't feel tight at all?
This a pic with the front button open. I also took a couple of pictures more when I lift the arm up it the sleeve hardly moves. It its only when I move the arm forward that the sleeve bunches up. I also know it is normal for the sleeve to do that, it is only that it is too much and why I decided to post the pics.

It is bespoke (badspoke would be the correct term) the tailor made another jacket earlier and to some degree I have the same problem but not as bad as this one. I am tempted to think that the problem is because of the way that the tailor cuts the jacket.

There is hardly any padding on the jacket.

I didn't understand the bolded sentence










Hideous Roberto, hope you never wear it again.
I am afraid, you are right. I didn't know if fit so badly at the back

You'll find that a lot of jackets will do that, although you are right in the sense that one would expect some sort of pulling on the front button.
The sleeves look a bit lifeless and, is it just me, or does robertito robertito 's jacket share some resemblance with that of our DarkOverlord™ Sartodinapoli ?
I thought slightly the same and I was tempted not to upload the pic because of that. My only comfort is that I didn't pay +2,000 euros for the jacket like Lord Voldemort did. Sartodinapoli
 

robertito

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Thank you. Very helpful. I guess to know how much is the inlay I would need to rip the sleeve off? I am happy to do so. The jacket has rendered useless unless I fix it. To find a talented tailor would be the real problem.
 
Thread starter #37

Scherensammler

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I my eyes working from a pattern towards a fit is not bespoke, but MTO, at least in essence. Tailors who grasp this have the potential to become great.
So, according to your view, basically every men's tailor on this planet is doing it wrong?
But at least you found an example of how it was done the old way, bravo. You are not as UNknowledgeable
Thank you, I was aiming at being perceived as knowledgeable.

as what could be concluded from the posting where you pretend that at any given moment in time there are at least or more tailoring houses where detailed execution is bad and overall cut is good than there are tailoring houses where detailed execution is bad and overall cut is good. As we all know, this probability is close to zero. But I guess you were influenced by UNtailors, so I forgive you.
I can see that you share Sarto's ability to make wild conclusions. Well done, really dear!
 

Rambo

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Fucking christ. I woke up to 100's of posts. I never thought they would be about some sort of slot far-sight that lets one determine the fit of the garment by staring into them.

All this shit has been moved to the bored at work thread.

Alfanauts has been banned from this thread.
 

fxh

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You are using toile the same as the Americans use muslin?

It's a mockup of material that has approximately the same characteristics of the planned suiting?
 
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