Adult Daycare: Dealing with Employees

Lord Buckley

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Now I have to deal with Italy, the shambles of the Italian decree D.Lgs. No. 81/2015 and the elastic clauses and contradictions. Whilst you can reduce the hours the employee works due to a downturn or company crisis (see Court of Cassation, 21.11.2011 opinion ni, 24476 blah, de blah, de blah), the worker can refuse the reduction and continue working full-time. In this case, you cannot use this is a reason to make them redundant.

Quite an ingenious trick.
 

Fwiffo

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Sounds similar to this mythical worker's council I hear in Bavaria. A job for life for anyone who can get their foot in the door.
 

Lord Buckley

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It's not mythical, I had a colleague who joined one in a large company, solely on the pretext that the worker council members are the last to go in any redundancies as they are the facilitators and mediators between management and workers. He joined because he wanted some comfort that he would get the last seven years in before retiring to South America. On the negative side you have to attend training and out of hours meetings which I imagine are pretty dire.
 

doghouse

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Now I have to deal with Italy, the shambles of the Italian decree D.Lgs. No. 81/2015 and the elastic clauses and contradictions. Whilst you can reduce the hours the employee works due to a downturn or company crisis (see Court of Cassation, 21.11.2011 opinion ni, 24476 blah, de blah, de blah), the worker can refuse the reduction and continue working full-time. In this case, you cannot use this is a reason to make them redundant.

Quite an ingenious trick.
I don't know why anyone would dream of being a business owner in these places.
 

Fwiffo

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I was being facetious with the word "mythical". However, I agree with doghouse, I'm more used to North American style.

One of my friend's sibling graduated uni and landed a job in Canada for the construction industry - not doing the work but more supervising and logistics. Although they get a company car to travel on site and even got promoted recently, there is no paid time off in the employment agreement and any vacation is considered unpaid time. I'm sure if I said that to my German coworkers (colleagues), they would think it's modern slavery.
 

Monkeyface

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I've said it before and I'll say it again, Americans tie their self worth to their jobs and hence the more one works (or is seen by others as "working"), the more self worth one has.
Hence we get concepts such as facetime, inflating the hours one works, taking as little vacation as possible, spending as much time as possible at the office even though it's not necessary. Work has become ritualised, as most other rituals (religion, caring for family & neighborhood) have been eroded.

Of course the US is not the only one that adheres to this culture, Japan and U.K. are notable offenders as well.
 

Rambo

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I've said it before and I'll say it again, Americans tie their self worth to their jobs and hence the more one works (or is seen by others as "working"), the more self worth one has.
Hence we get concepts such as facetime, inflating the hours one works, taking as little vacation as possible, spending as much time as possible at the office even though it's not necessary. Work has become ritualised, as most other rituals (religion, caring for family & neighborhood) have been eroded.

Of course the US is not the only one that adheres to this culture, Japan and U.K. are notable offenders as well.
aren't you trying to move here?
 

viaattovannucci

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I've said it before and I'll say it again, Americans tie their self worth to their jobs and hence the more one works (or is seen by others as "working"), the more self worth one has.
Hence we get concepts such as facetime, inflating the hours one works, taking as little vacation as possible, spending as much time as possible at the office even though it's not necessary. Work has become ritualised, as most other rituals (religion, caring for family & neighborhood) have been eroded.

Of course the US is not the only one that adheres to this culture, Japan and U.K. are notable offenders as well.
The parenthetical remark is key; "work" in the US is, at a certain level, about keeping appearances.
 

Monkeyface

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aren't you trying to move here?
Of course, it's the land of the free and the home of the brave!

There's very little difference between UK and US working culture (except for the many pints, and I'm not a fan of beer), so no problem for me.
 

Fwiffo

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To that point there is no work life balance as most people try to coach and preach. You work five days out of seven days (or six out of seven days for Muslims). That in itself says you chose work and not life so any sense of balance is simply a delusion. Money makes a whore of most of us.
 

Monkeyface

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To that point there is no work life balance as most people try to coach and preach. You work five days out of seven days (or six out of seven days for Muslims). That in itself says you chose work and not life so any sense of balance is simply a delusion. Money makes a whore of most of us.
The 5 day workweek has become a ritual as well. Why 5? Why not 4 or 6?
 

Lord Buckley

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I've just had the full on blabbering tears routine complete with dog is dying, daughter is giving birth prematurely and please don't make me work my notice as I really need to get back to Houston, like on the first thing smoking.

Strictly speaking, following all the company procedures, employment laws and other regulations designed to stop me effectively managing and making money for the shareholders, I am in no position to deviate from standard procedure of making them work the three month notice period. Of course, it's time like these where you have to differentiate yourself from the herd and remembering that she was the one who warned me I was going to be set-up by two nice ladies on a sexual harassment charge so that one of them would inherit my job, I did the only gentlemanly action.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-8UXpuDKcA

Just another adventure on the proud highway.
 

Fwiffo

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Let's say I work at a company that equips auto shops. The sales manager says hey let's sell something to this body shop as a trial so maybe we can get more sales in the future. Alright, I'm in the production department, I produced this one thing but I need someone to go on site and install it at their auto shop. I need a brain. I get a brain from another department.

Fast forward a month later, the brain has gone on holiday for a month. And then the sales manager says hey, we need to save this account and grow it. Can the thing we sold support more than one car? Then I take a look at it, wait a minute, we set this whole thing up for one car at a time in a corner of the body shop that can't be expanded. We sold them the starter product. Wait a minute, why did we charge them on a per car basis for small customers rather than a per shop basis if they were going to use it for multiple cars at once. Sales manager then says quick - talk to them and figure out how they can do 12 cars at once or we lose the account.

What am I supposed to do now? Dismantle the thing, have someone pay for their myopic near sightedness and sprinkle some pixie dust on it to make it all better?

Oh and by the time the brain comes back from holiday - well done lad, another account that we can add to our customer roll. How are you such a genius to convince these people they need our product. Rank A client.
 

Lord Buckley

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The nightmare continues: I've someone who hasn't worked full-time since the beginning of 2011. They do have a genuine medical condition and have been off a full year now. Previously it was work for 2-3 days then go off for a month, then come back and stay for a couple of days and then go off again for 4-6 weeks. Under the Dutch system we are responsible to pay someone's salary if they are ill for 2 years in one constant period. So if someone is off like the above, the 2 years never starts. Anyway, this person was assessed by the works doctor to be mentally and physically unfit for work so the process was meant to start that they would go on disability benefits and be looked after by the state as there was no chance that the person would get well.

Inbetween that assessment and the last six weekly one by the work doctor they have relocated to a warmer climate that is better for their condition compared to this harsh damp and cold North Sea climate. So now the new assessment is that this person might get better and that the process is ongoing so cough up the bucks for another year! This is despite the person selling their house and emigrating and telling us that they will not be back.

Meanwhile, it has filtered back to me that this person is applying for a position with one of our clients! So it looks like a double whammy get paid by us and also by the new employer.

So I've stopped their salary payments and waived bye-bye. Had a nice legal email this morning advising me of her entitlement to be paid for another year.

This is how it works here in Europe and no wonder young people can't get a job when these types are blocking entrance to the job market.
 

Monkeyface

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The nightmare continues: I've someone who hasn't worked full-time since the beginning of 2011. They do have a genuine medical condition and have been off a full year now. Previously it was work for 2-3 days then go off for a month, then come back and stay for a couple of days and then go off again for 4-6 weeks. Under the Dutch system we are responsible to pay someone's salary if they are ill for 2 years in one constant period. So if someone is off like the above, the 2 years never starts. Anyway, this person was assessed by the works doctor to be mentally and physically unfit for work so the process was meant to start that they would go on disability benefits and be looked after by the state as there was no chance that the person would get well.

Inbetween that assessment and the last six weekly one by the work doctor they have relocated to a warmer climate that is better for their condition compared to this harsh damp and cold North Sea climate. So now the new assessment is that this person might get better and that the process is ongoing so cough up the bucks for another year! This is despite the person selling their house and emigrating and telling us that they will not be back.

Meanwhile, it has filtered back to me that this person is applying for a position with one of our clients! So it looks like a double whammy get paid by us and also by the new employer.

So I've stopped their salary payments and waived bye-bye. Had a nice legal email this morning advising me of her entitlement to be paid for another year.

This is how it works here in Europe and no wonder young people can't get a job when these types are blocking entrance to the job market.
I fund it hard to believe you have to pay a salary when the person is employed elsewhere. I call bullshit.
 

Lord Buckley

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Buckley - is that EU law or Dutch?
It's Dutch law reflecting the unique work culture here where it is a badge of honour to go off sick with stress and burn out, or take 5 years to recover from a stubbed toe. Things got so bad with 10-20% of the work force constantly out on sick leave that businesses were compaining and the government had to bring in the "Arbodoctor" system. These are work doctors and an organisation that facilitates the reintegration of the person back into the work place. The end results are lots of letters, pages of pye charts and plot graphs, but sadly what ails the person is never revealed, as that is confidential and private.

I fund it hard to believe you have to pay a salary when the person is employed elsewhere. I call bullshit.
Of course not, that is only a rumour that they have applied for a job there. There is no evidence. Anyway, I am standing firm and have replied, let the game of ping-pong commence.
 

Leitmotif

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I have plenty of stories and its mostly about people dont wanting to do their job or giving to others because they are too lazy to do so.
 

Lord Buckley

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I've seen all kind of issues over the years: from falsified credentials, scams of one sort or another, ex-Bangkok Hilton drug dealing inmates storming an oil company, men going down with nervous breakdowns, fighting the unions, getting done over, being told to leave the oil patch if I valued my life, having to leave a factory in the trunk of car as the local police arrived, a paedo with a get out of jail card, steady men becoming alcoholic wrecks in the space of a few weeks, getting caught in cross fire on the way to work, a boss asking if he could give me a blow job, men in their 50s and 60s leaving marriages for exotic dancers, executives being bribed with Porsches/drugs/hookers. It goes on and on!
 

Fwiffo

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That's what makes life colourful. Without the drama or the colour, we'd be horrid and dull.

This person who claims to be ill can't disclose what their illness is yes? I wonder if that's how that bloke who flew the German airplane into the mountain was able to get away with being diagnosed whatever psychotic condition he had yet they kept putting him back in the cockpit.
 

Lord Buckley

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This person who claims to be ill can't disclose what their illness is yes? I wonder if that's how that bloke who flew the German airplane into the mountain was able to get away with being diagnosed whatever psychotic condition he had yet they kept putting him back in the cockpit.
Correct, and yes that's what was behind the German airplane being flown into the mountain.

Messed up or what?

I am just itching and a boppin' to test the law in a case, to expose the charade and nonsense for once and for all. But then I realise that's not my remit and why aren't competent lawyers doing this? Of course, it's not in their interest.
 

Fwiffo

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Apparently my English is dodgy. At the status meeting I said we better finish this because my staff was leaving ...as in taking leave, everyone assumed I was terminating someone. I made the same mistake before saying, this won't be met because so and so is out - and people again assume I kicked someone out of the company.

So now I will do full disclosure. This direct is leaving because his father is being driven illness by his equally sick uncle. The other direct will be out because her sister has high blood pressure and has had two bypasses and isn't available to fly to attend to a family matter.

Of course then I'm left wondering why I remember all this stuff.
 

Monkeyface

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Apparently my English is dodgy. At the status meeting I said we better finish this because my staff was leaving ...as in taking leave, everyone assumed I was terminating someone. I made the same mistake before saying, this won't be met because so and so is out - and people again assume I kicked someone out of the company.

So now I will do full disclosure. This direct is leaving because his father is being driven illness by his equally sick uncle. The other direct will be out because her sister has high blood pressure and has had two bypasses and isn't available to fly to attend to a family matter.

Of course then I'm left wondering why I remember all this stuff.
Leaving implies they're leaving the firm for good. I believe on leave would be the correct phrasing, but I'm just a foreigner.
 

Lord Buckley

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Be wary, if someone get's you on the burn-out ticket they can make a killing. Our lawyer here warned me to never, ever ask someone to work overtime in the office as there would be a strong likelihood they would take the next 6-18 months off with stress or worse, burn-out.
 

Monkeyface

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Be wary, if someone get's you on the burn-out ticket they can make a killing. Our lawyer here warned me to never, ever ask someone to work overtime in the office as there would be a strong likelihood they would take the next 6-18 months off with stress or worse, burn-out.
This seems silly. You guys pay by the hour? Put them on a fixed salary and they can work as much as you want.
 

Lord Buckley

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My employee problem (i.e. emigrating but the work doctor expecting us to continue paying salary as sick leave) has taken an interesting twist. Right on queue the insurance company has requested confirmation of the person's address. So now the work doctor is going to be badly exposed up on Cemetary Ridge....

Everyone was telling me why fight this and bend yourself all out of shape when the insurance will pay? That's exactly why I needed to act on this! The Insurance companies are not half-witted, they're not going to pay for someone who has relocated and clearly not available to work. And they have ways and means of finding out things.
 

Fwiffo

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I'm no longer permitted to wait in the lobby of one of my female acquaintances at a competitor's because her office is erupting with scandalous news I'm the illegitimate replacement for her husband.

Apparently, we were spotted leaving from her workplace to a number of bars in the area. One time someone saw her come up to my flat. The rumours piled up until her past vacation in which people hypothesized her less than one week holiday meant she was going with me on some getaway. This is a bit of an absurdity because the same people should have seen me walking about the financial district picking up my other women friends whilst she was away.

I honestly don't know any of these people nor have I ever met them with or without her being present. People must have a ridiculous amount of time in the office to come up with such stories.

And it does me no good if I ever want to go move companies anywhere because I have a reputation as a cad in this firm now.
 

Kingstonian

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I've said it before and I'll say it again, Americans tie their self worth to their jobs and hence the more one works (or is seen by others as "working"), the more self worth one has.
Hence we get concepts such as facetime, inflating the hours one works, taking as little vacation as possible, spending as much time as possible at the office even though it's not necessary. Work has become ritualised, as most other rituals (religion, caring for family & neighborhood) have been eroded.

Of course the US is not the only one that adheres to this culture, Japan and U.K. are notable offenders as well.
Sounds like a mug's game to me.
 

doghouse

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I'm no longer permitted to wait in the lobby of one of my female acquaintances at a competitor's because her office is erupting with scandalous news I'm the illegitimate replacement for her husband.

Apparently, we were spotted leaving from her workplace to a number of bars in the area. One time someone saw her come up to my flat. The rumours piled up until her past vacation in which people hypothesized her less than one week holiday meant she was going with me on some getaway. This is a bit of an absurdity because the same people should have seen me walking about the financial district picking up my other women friends whilst she was away.

I honestly don't know any of these people nor have I ever met them with or without her being present. People must have a ridiculous amount of time in the office to come up with such stories.

And it does me no good if I ever want to go move companies anywhere because I have a reputation as a cad in this firm now.
This actually sounds like a badge of honor Fwiff.
 

Fwiffo

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This actually sounds like a badge of honor Fwiff.
A mate of mine, manager at another insurance firm, said he heard rumours I slept with one of the women who used to work for me. He now follows her on social media - I don't know if he said that because he was envious or has a crush on her.

And of course the most absurd - I know two women in firm A and firm B. People in firm A see me go out with her and tell people in firm B to tell the other woman that I was seen cheating on her. Insurance - such an incestuous industry.
 

Monkeyface

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I'm no longer permitted to wait in the lobby of one of my female acquaintances at a competitor's because her office is erupting with scandalous news I'm the illegitimate replacement for her husband.

Apparently, we were spotted leaving from her workplace to a number of bars in the area. One time someone saw her come up to my flat. The rumours piled up until her past vacation in which people hypothesized her less than one week holiday meant she was going with me on some getaway. This is a bit of an absurdity because the same people should have seen me walking about the financial district picking up my other women friends whilst she was away.

I honestly don't know any of these people nor have I ever met them with or without her being present. People must have a ridiculous amount of time in the office to come up with such stories.

And it does me no good if I ever want to go move companies anywhere because I have a reputation as a cad in this firm now.
A mate of mine, manager at another insurance firm, said he heard rumours I slept with one of the women who used to work for me. He now follows her on social media - I don't know if he said that because he was envious or has a crush on her.

And of course the most absurd - I know two women in firm A and firm B. People in firm A see me go out with her and tell people in firm B to tell the other woman that I was seen cheating on her. Insurance - such an incestuous industry.
Just don't date in your industry then if it's causing you so much trouble.
 

Fwiffo

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Just don't date in your industry then if it's causing you so much trouble.
It's not causing me trouble so much as the women. As doghouse mentioned, a man can consider it a badge of honour.

Beyond insurance? Banking? Investments? There aren't any women in investments are there?

I just don't know how people have so much time to dine on the misery of people they don't even know. Your own mates and coworkers I can see, but random people?
 

Monkeyface

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It's not causing me trouble so much as the women. As doghouse mentioned, a man can consider it a badge of honour.

Beyond insurance? Banking? Investments? There aren't any women in investments are there?

I just don't know how people have so much time to dine on the misery of people they don't even know. Your own mates and coworkers I can see, but random people?
Olo why do you only date finance people?
 
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