Sammy Ambrose
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Yes. Shooey's shoulders disappear. But be fair. You are not flinging your arm out, as Shooey is.
Adventures in Bespoke Tailoring
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belinmad
Damn Tacky Big Collar Daddy
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I’ll do a pic in the next few days, but bending the arm the way I’m doing it puts further strain on the structure by locking free sleeve movement. With a straight arm, the sleeve has room to pull back and release tension from the shoulder head.
You’ll see once I post the picture
Sammy Ambrose
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I have just googled 'collar gap' and found a video where a tailor says it is caused by one or two things. 1. Not enough cloth in the back of the jacket. 2. The balance (between the shoulders) is wrong.
Is he right?
Is he right?
belinmad
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There’s a number of things, including those two.
add the collar structure itself (ie the shape of the neck, how the collar’s back is stitched and iron shaped on the side towards the neck to “hug it till you choke it” as Frank would say) , front to back balance, armhole size, and how the coat sits on the shoulders (related to your second point) and you’ve got most of it.
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belinmad
Damn Tacky Big Collar Daddy
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I’m no fan of Crompters, but googling I found this article which I think covers it pretty well.
Sammy Ambrose
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^
What about this explanation?
www.parisiangentleman.com
What about this explanation?
Signals of a Handmade Suit : Zero Collar Gap
www.parisiangentleman.com
belinmad
Damn Tacky Big Collar Daddy
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^
What about this explanation?
Signals of a Handmade Suit : Zero Collar Gap
It’s a bit incomplete I think, and focuses on cause and effect rather than construction. Crompters covers the different construction components in more detail.
The Shooman
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What happens when you sit down and your stomach expands, do you need to unbutton it? That cut wouldn't work for me, l need some room.
The armholes are supposed to be high, I can slip 2 fingers under my armpit. I need extra padding to even out the shoulders too, so probably a bigger armhole. Sure, your coat moves less, but my needs are different to yours. For my tailor to fit a body like mine is a miracle, some compromises need to be made.
So what does that say about Kirby's coat, are they low armholes too? His coat moves much more than mine does.
The armholes on my Oxxfords can also fit 2 fingers, and they are supposed to be high armholes.
Anyway, will be interested how you do the `hail a cab' position. I want to see if Frank make big daddy collars.
The Shooman
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I was watching a video from Hitchcock about collar fit and armhole size. So if my armholes are too big shouldn't the collar be moving off my neck?
The interesting thing is, my tailor tells me the armhole area has been pushed down by my armpit (the blue one) because he made the armhole slightly too high. He would know. Maybe the extra padding on top makes them look lower than what they are?
Some say only 1 finger under the armhole, but to me that is not much room. Is an extra finger really that much extra?
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belinmad
Damn Tacky Big Collar Daddy
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Shooey, when you sit you should ALWAYS unbutton your coat. This is gentleman behavior 101. I shouldn't need to explain this to you.
The bigger the armhole, the bigger the movement of the shoulder upwards, like in your blue coat. See pictures below.
Shooey, I really do want you to become a Big Collar Daddy, but for that to happen you need to stop following these false idols like Kirby (he's a Big Collar tool as far as I can tell - he might be Big Shoo Daddy, but he's got nothing on coats) and also start taking your tailor with a grain of salt.
Are these RTW? Some RTW/MTM (see Oracio Luciano coat below) have smaller armholes by design. But if you read Crompters' piece you'll see a good explanation - MTM tends to work with bigger armholes just because they fit more people.
Exhibit A:
Frank's coat (I've lost some weight since the picture I posted before), buttoned. The collar is choking me, and there's minimal movement of the sleevehead..
Exhibit B: Frank's coat, unbuttoned. sleevehead comes down a bit, sleeve is much more relaxed, less creased.
Exhibit C: Dan Macangus coat, buttoned.
English style, quite a bit of structure on the shoulder, but less structure than Frank. Dan is really good, but probably not as technically experienced as Frank. Collar remains tightly in place, but there's some deformation of the sleevehead (not as much as in yours though).
Exhibit D:
Maestro Panico's completely unstructured coat, buttoned. A very relaxed fit, you can see there's of course no movement on the sleevehead (as there's no underlying structure to it), and a very tight armhole keeps everything in place. There's some collar gap on the OPPOSITE side, due to the coat being buttoned in this position, I suspect.
Exhibit E:
Orazio Luciano RTW/MTM coat, buttoned. A little bit of structure on the shoulder (less than English, more than Panico's), broader armhole than the bespoke coat, not as big as yours. Shoulder moves a bit, sleevehead is a bit out of shape but in line with English bespoke. Minimal collar gap on the OPPOSITE side, and on the side of the neck as opposed to the back. I think there's something about Neapolitan button point and lack of structure that might create this. I have to investigate more.
The Shooman
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Scorecard
-------------
BIG collar daddy = Shooey and Belinmad
Sleeve pitch daddy = Shooey. Belinmad??
Armhole daddy = Belinmad, but not Shooey at the moment.
He is no idol, that is for sure. He is a junioor shooman (knows little) and coatman (collar gap daddy). He should also stop wearing a fedora and wear a homburg instead, it would suit him a bit better.
Kirby and Hugo are typical igent types. They are easily lead by people who don't know anything, so they end up with coats that come off their neck and coats that swing open. At least with me, armholes can be ordered smaller.
Why? Dropped in for a chat today for 2 hours (rare to get that time)...learned more things than l could ever imagine.
rtw coats. So an inch under the pit is too much?
Will get back to the rest later.
btw, Impressed that Frank's coats don't move off the neck at all. Lets face it
belinmad
, we are both big collar daddies, and people like us are few. We had a good talk about Frank today and his collars.Will get back to the rest later.
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belinmad
Damn Tacky Big Collar Daddy
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it's not just how many fingers, but more importantly the shape (I had this discussion with one of the tailors, but to be honest I don't recall all the details). The typical RTW armhole will have a more circular shape thus not only "taller", as you call it, but also wider, while the truly bespoke one will be more oval-shaped, and will have a pitch that follows the pitch of the shoulder (depending on whether your stance is shoulder-forward or shoulder-backward).
Also the distance from the top of the shoulder to where the armhole starts on the top (there's a technical name for this but I can't remember it). Broad wide shoulders with loads of structure (think Sexton) will have a very different armhole shape than a Neapolitan cut like Panico's.
Because, to be honest Shooey, when I look at your jackets (and you don't do yourself a service by posting either highly cropped pics, like that of your shoulder, or once where the stance/angle makes it hard to understand the balance) they look more from a MTM/MTO pattern than truly bespoke. And the whole "secret sauce" is marketing BS. An honest tailor should always be happy to discuss technical details. I've spent countless hours with my tailors doing this, and that's how I learned all these fascinating bits and bobs about coat construction.
What's the tailor's name? Is there a website/instagram where one can see his work?
The Shooman
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Big names with a glorious past, but not so glorious anymore.
Henry Poole collar gaps
Kirby with his usual collar gap with the managing director with his gap too. Kirby may not be a suit daddy, but he is a daddy of some sort, ie, a collar gap daddy.
but he brings Eddy along to Poole, and poor old Eddy ends up with a shocking collar cut to fit no-one. Look at how shapeless Eddy's collar is...so shapeless that it pulls off the side of the neck and at the back. Eddy's Poole collar look like those on many of King Charles' coats.
Then there is the king of collar gaps, Huntsman. Just a few of many l have saved in my collar gap files. I hear their glory days are long behind them. Aren't they passing on the old knowledge to the young generation?
Off the sides, and off the back. Sheesh.
Henry Poole collar gaps
Kirby with his usual collar gap with the managing director with his gap too. Kirby may not be a suit daddy, but he is a daddy of some sort, ie, a collar gap daddy.
but he brings Eddy along to Poole, and poor old Eddy ends up with a shocking collar cut to fit no-one. Look at how shapeless Eddy's collar is...so shapeless that it pulls off the side of the neck and at the back. Eddy's Poole collar look like those on many of King Charles' coats.
Then there is the king of collar gaps, Huntsman. Just a few of many l have saved in my collar gap files. I hear their glory days are long behind them. Aren't they passing on the old knowledge to the young generation?
Off the sides, and off the back. Sheesh.
The Shooman
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How about this photo. Balanced?
Coat made bigger to fit 21 oz winter high waisted trousers with 3 ply turtlenecks. Very slight waist suppression. Aussie shirtmaker.
One shoulder is about 3 inches higher than the other, but my tailor designed it so the difference is not too noticeable, and the sleeves look about the same length.
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belinmad
Damn Tacky Big Collar Daddy
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Yeah better.
There’s definitely something going on with the balance, not only front to back but also left to right (right side is higher). Does your right shoulder sit much higher than your left one?
Also sleeves and armhole are definitely too wide, as is the right shoulder, maybe as you say to accommodate your bulletproof knitwear, but still, they detract from the overall cut quality of the coat.
I personally find the button point to be too low for your body type, and the collar size to be disproportionately small front quarters.
What do you want me to say - The jacket does not scream bespoke to me.
The Shooman
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Yep. + my arms are twisted, and my back is all weird. I am a tailor's nightmare, one of the most difficult for people to make a coat for. For my tailor to make a coat that fits me like that is a miracle. + my legs are all messed up too, with big thighs and calves with ZERO backside (completely flat), so making trousers is also a tailor's nightmare.
Uneven shoulders.
I wanted my sleeves wider, love it like that. Hate narrow sleeves.
It looks low in photo, but it is not in reality. I think the lapel role tricks the eye.
Well l like it. If you saw me in rtw you might change your mind, my tailor has worked miracles and solved many problems, but some issues are so serious he can't solve all problems without inviting other troubles. Some compromises need to be made....eg,if he does too much of a certain thing, other problems arise. If he makes something else perfect it will throw other things off.
belinmad
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That’s all that matters.
fxh
OG Party Suit Wearer
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D-Well is launching a competition - which one of these is Shooey and which one is belinmad?
1st prize a .pdf copy of Manton's essay "Flight 93 Election"
2nd prize a signed copy of his book "The Suit"
3rd prize a pic of Manton with Trump
1st prize a .pdf copy of Manton's essay "Flight 93 Election"
2nd prize a signed copy of his book "The Suit"
3rd prize a pic of Manton with Trump
The Shooman
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Yes, and l don't think you would find a tailor in Australia who would do any better. My tailor almost makes me look normal, and he makes me look o.k in my clothes - for a tailor to do that for a body like mine is a miracle. I am not your average guy who can look decent in a rtw coat and fantastic in bespoke. I can wear the world's top bespoke and l would only look o.k at best, and if l look o.k l am doing far better than l could have ever dreamed.
belinmad
Damn Tacky Big Collar Daddy
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Is there a reason why you won’t share your tailor’s name?
The Shooman
A Pretty Face
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It is a collar competition to see who is the biggest `collar daddy'. I thought l might have won the competition, but Frank Shattuck also makes collars that don't budge.
The Shooman
and
belinmad
are both big collar daddies.
The Shooman
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I have never shared my makers names.
Sammy Ambrose
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Crompton's rigI’m no fan of Crompters, but googling I found this article which I think covers it pretty well.
belinmad
Damn Tacky Big Collar Daddy
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Why, if I may ask? If they are so great, don’t you want to let other people know?
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favorite collo americo
sometimes they are so bad they are good; perhaps the most elite sprezz ; rumor has it that mariano rubinacci even requests his jackets made this way. please post your favorites, especially bespoke examples. In my opinion the royals do it best :
www.dressedwell.net
Sammy Ambrose
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Great link.
The Shooman
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How did l miss that thread.
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fxh
OG Party Suit Wearer
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No Collar Gap
The Shooman
A Pretty Face
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He has a slight gap, and those terrible narrow sleeves l can't stand (like shirt sleeves). Those tight sleeves would drive me crazy. Maybe his suit doesn't move when he raises his arm, but so what....how many times a day do we keep our arms raised? I'd rather a comfortable coat than a straight jacket, but hey, that's just me.
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The Shooman
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The perfect bespoke coat
The one thing my conversation with
belinmad
has revealed is how individual bespoke really is. No-one likes the same things. I see
belinmad
coats and l can't stand any of them, and if l had to wear those coats with the narrow sleeves and high arm holes l would absolutely hate it.
You see, I know what l like, and l have unique requirements, and that is why l go bespoke. I have larger arms under the shoulder area, so l want larger sleeves and a wider armhole, and l like the look and feel much better than narrow sleeves. When l cross my arms or sit at my desk with a coat on, l don't want tightness in the sleeves or at the back too much, and if that means having a larger armhole where my jacket moves a bit while raising my arms, then so be it, it IS worth the compromise.
I also had my shoulders extended very slightly so l could get that straight drop of the sleeve from the shoulder that I love so much along with extra room in the coat while maintaining the clean look. If l didn't do that my arms would be puffing out at the sides. Best decision ever, and l don't need people advising me because bespoke is such an individual thing. I am probably more lucky than most because I know exactly what l want out of bespoke, but my ideas of greatness are probably different to most people's.
To me, bespoke is about covering many of my imperfections while having me look o.k with clean cut. It is also about comfort and incorporating my idea of style (wide trousers etc). My tailor gives me everything l ask for, but naturally some of that will come with compromises because bespoke is not magic, it can't solve all problems (there is a fine balance), but it can certainly do amazing things because it can transform me from a walking box with uneven shoulders into a bloke that looks decently turned out. I don't like most of the bespoke l see online, but l love my bespoke.
The one thing my conversation with
belinmad
has revealed is how individual bespoke really is. No-one likes the same things. I see
belinmad
coats and l can't stand any of them, and if l had to wear those coats with the narrow sleeves and high arm holes l would absolutely hate it.You see, I know what l like, and l have unique requirements, and that is why l go bespoke. I have larger arms under the shoulder area, so l want larger sleeves and a wider armhole, and l like the look and feel much better than narrow sleeves. When l cross my arms or sit at my desk with a coat on, l don't want tightness in the sleeves or at the back too much, and if that means having a larger armhole where my jacket moves a bit while raising my arms, then so be it, it IS worth the compromise.
I also had my shoulders extended very slightly so l could get that straight drop of the sleeve from the shoulder that I love so much along with extra room in the coat while maintaining the clean look. If l didn't do that my arms would be puffing out at the sides. Best decision ever, and l don't need people advising me because bespoke is such an individual thing. I am probably more lucky than most because I know exactly what l want out of bespoke, but my ideas of greatness are probably different to most people's.
To me, bespoke is about covering many of my imperfections while having me look o.k with clean cut. It is also about comfort and incorporating my idea of style (wide trousers etc). My tailor gives me everything l ask for, but naturally some of that will come with compromises because bespoke is not magic, it can't solve all problems (there is a fine balance), but it can certainly do amazing things because it can transform me from a walking box with uneven shoulders into a bloke that looks decently turned out. I don't like most of the bespoke l see online, but l love my bespoke.
Sammy Ambrose
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What about this? MTM in China and then locally tweaked.
www.hockerty.uk
How it works
Hockerty is where technology and crafstmanship meet. We created a very easy process where you can design your own garments and our artisans can make them for you in very short time.
www.hockerty.uk
The Shooman
A Pretty Face
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See....too many igent rules dictate rules on what is right and wrong. In my experience most of these igent rules are pure garbage.
The Shooman
A Pretty Face
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What about this? MTM in China and then locally tweaked.
View attachment 48198How it works
Hockerty is where technology and crafstmanship meet. We created a very easy process where you can design your own garments and our artisans can make them for you in very short time.
No.
China MTM often take short cuts. My tailor tells me.....
For eg, they use much less much material in making the trousers, so the pockets gape out like ears at the sides. They have no clue how to make a proper trouser pattern, and trousers cut for braces are usually unbalanced. Chinese MTM trousers are cut to make you look like an oom papa man (all wide and dowdy at the top) because those ears make you look wider without a nice clean straight line.
The collars often come off the neck and not enough material in the chest.
You can't tweek something locally to good effect is the pattern is garbage.
Will try and find pictures later.
Look at all the S.F MTM in China, all of it is garbage.
Spier and Mackay trousers with rabbit ears
Oom papa trousers that make you look big at the top. His ears would stick out (pockets), so if his coat was removes he would look big and dowdy in his trousers.
See red circle where the trousers are starting to bag out (no clean line). They make him look older and more dowdy. Big puffy trouser at top. They all do it like that. If they used more material they could straighten it all out, but they skimp on material and charge you top dollar. Don't fall for the made in China scam.
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^
To be fair, those are not MtM garments. The top video is a pair of $30 off the rack cotton chinos that look to be a size too small for that guy’s hips.
To be fair, those are not MtM garments. The top video is a pair of $30 off the rack cotton chinos that look to be a size too small for that guy’s hips.
The Shooman
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Doesn't matter, that would be the standard pattern they use for MTM. Whether it is rtw or mtm, those standard patterns have ears that stick out, and that can never be changed.
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The pocket ears are a product of poor hip fit and easily fixed. If these were MtM, you would adjust the hips accordingly.
belinmad
Damn Tacky Big Collar Daddy
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So just to clarify, your tailor told you that ALL Chinese factories, regardless of who the client is, use MTM patterns that don’t allow for enough fabric around the tights, such that you get “pocket ears” in every single pair of trousers that comes out of China?
The Shooman
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He has seen a lot of this from China, it is common place. Other countries also do it like Africa, they cut corners while charging big prices. Do ALL do it?...who can say.
I understand that there are big factories in China making for numerous MTM companies, and it seems like many are trained in the same cutting techniques that cut corners. I see so many trousers in decent fabrics with ears these days selling for high prices.
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