Bleeding Madras, the Real Deal

  • Thread starter Thread starter COG
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COG said:
Can somebody on linkedin get him here?
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Yes, he should come here. A very interesting man who was treated very roughly on another forum, we exchanged PMs and he was eloquent, had a Maine connection with family here, sold his first batch of shirts at Maine's only high end clothier, David Wood, supposedly sold out in hours at $150+ each. Have no idea where he's now or what he's doing. (He was in CA last, involved in film production.)
 
Peak said:
A very interesting man who was treated very roughly on another forum...
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Ooh boy, you must mean the FMB Ivy nutters that badgered the poor Indian Vijay guy for five pages. Aleck of course was actually attending an Ivy league university in the late 1960s, so the overseas historical re-enactors got intimidated by the legitimate authenticity and bullied him away.
 
^^^

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. As Aleck painstakingly explained his process and his progress, a commenter wrote something in a put-up-or-shut-up vein that's become indelible with me; he said, we buy things, we don't make things. I have been wary of passing on my itsy bitsy, home-grown tailoring tips ever since.
 
Forgot the link
http://forums.filmnoirbuff.com/viewtopic.php?pid=396040#p396040
Aleck really did call the bluff of the "ooh I'd sell my left nut for the magical bleeding madras shirt" grail chasers. He presented perfect fabric that could be bought and offered myriads of options since apparently none of these big-timers knew anybody that could make a shirt. But they just kept lobbing petty excuses, fear, uncertainty, and doubt. I think one guy actually had a job and was able to buy some fabric.

Sadly I am in the practical camp that is not so interested in an item that needs perpetual solitary washings. Were I in some climate where I would wear them daily and just lump them all together in a machine to muddy the colors among each other, maybe.
 
I'm Aleck Grishkevich and am in Venice and Palm Desert, CA.

I've been working with Spell Fashions/Camessi Shirts and we've FINALLY developed a HANDLOOMED "bleeding" madras that can be produced on a COMMERCIAL scale and from which garments can be made and priced COMPETITIVELY in the marketplace.

(Spell/Camessi is owned by the Shroff family. A family member was selling 1,000,000 yards/month!!! of "bleeding" madras to Ralph Lauren back in the day.)

So, AUTHENTIC, handloomed "bleeding" madras is going to be COMMERCIALLY available once again and for the first time in 45+ years.

Spell/Camessi will use the fabric to make garments - shirts, casual jackets, trousers, walk shorts, etc. - and sold on Farfetch and a brick-and-mortar" location in Shoreditch/London staring in June.

(I'd been working for 3 years with a fellow in Chennai, Yogesh Gajendran. But, he can't produce it in commercial quantities. It was also costing him $9/yard to produce, which made garments produced from it very pricey, so much so that they were unattractive to most retailers.)
 
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I had some proper bleeding madras back in the 60s - John Simon imports sold at The Ivy Shop. Colour flooded out in the wash. Washing separately is not a big deal. An easy hand wash in a basin.

I also got some ‘dead stock’ from O’Connells a few years ago. It was not the same. Colour faded but did not flood out in the wash. The fabric was thinner too.

Look forward to seeing some proper new shirts for sale in due course.
 
We will CERTAINLY be producing and selling the traditional and quintesstial Ivy/Trad "bleeding" madras garments

  • A casual/sports jacket -- sack cut, w/an undarted front, very soft unpaded shoulder, classic-width lapel w/topstitched edge, three-button fastening rolled to the middle button, hip pockets w/flaps, center vent, and three-button sleeve cuffs. Lined only in the shoulders and sleeve, French facing on the sides of the jacket.
  • Both a full placket and pullover Gant "Hugger" button-down shirt - 3 3/8" points on a 3 button collar, lined and un-bonded, 6 button closure on a placket front. Pearlized buttons, hand attached. Pattern matched, single breast pocket. Sleeves terminating at cuff with two tidy pleats. Single button barrel cuffs with high button placement. Big box pleat centered on yoke with a locker loop above.
We'll, however, be doing non-Ivy/Trad pieces as well.
  • Cifonelli - the iconic Parisian tailoring house/extraordinary bespoke institution - features the non-bleeding/colorfast madras in their new RTW-line.
  • Ralph Lauren has a non-bleeding duffel coat and field jacket.
  • Vivienne Westwood: a Harrington-style jacket.
  • Camoshita: a grandad-collar shirt.
  • The Gigi: an double-breasted unstructured jacket.

I sold Dave Mercer his "bleeding" madras.

We also do a non-madras bespoke OCBD. See the 12/5/18 post on Camessi's Facebook page.
 
Splendid endeavour.

But, like Kingstonian said, all we need in Madras is a short-sleeved shirt, and maybe a pair of shorts of the more foreign-minded. Keep it classic.
 
Can't keep it classic and make money. Tried that.

Ivy and Trad represents a small - and dwindling - % of the menswear market.

GQ editorially in the print edition has even said, "Goodbye!" to the suit.

The market for menswear is CHINA.

The predominate style is streetwear.

We're not abandoning the Ivy/Trad buyer/aficionado.

But, we're also a business.

Businesses - if they are to make money and survive - need to meet the marketplace's requirements.
 
You'll be able to obtain

  • Bespoke and RTW Ivy/Trad tailored "bleeding" madras at the Shoreditch location
    • + RTW Ivy/Trad tailored "bleeding" on-line
  • Any manufacturer/retailer can buy it from us as yardage/piece goods to manufacturer to the tastes of their customer base.
    • Formerly, the minimum order was 100 yards of a given pattern = $1000+. This was more of a commitment than most manufacturers/retailers want to/were capable of making. + We couldn't offer terms.
      • We were also unable to supply swatches.
        • Now: No minimums. Terms are available. Swatches are available. We have 100 patterns - more are being added - from which to choose.
Ralph Lauren has made a substantial monthly order.

I spoke with Ethan Huber (O'Connell's/Buffalo) earlier this week. He's not interested.

You want a Ivy/Trad retailer to offer it? We request you speak to them about it.
 
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aucociscokid said:
I spoke with Ethan Huber (O'Connell's/Buffalo) earlier this week. He's not interested.

You want a Ivy/Trad retailer to offer it, perhaps you should speak to them about it.
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But we're nobodies, aucociscokid. I wouldn't even know how to get in touch with these people.

Personally, I think M&S should offer it. It fits that market segment. Anything more upmarket goes against the ethos of bleeding Madras.
 
aucociscokid said:
You'll be able to obtain

  • Bespoke and RTW Ivy/Trad tailored "bleeding" madras at the Shoreditch location
    • + RTW Ivy/Trad tailored "bleeding" on-line
  • Any manufacturer/retailer can buy it from us as yardage/piece goods to manufacturer to the tastes of their customer base.
    • Formerly, the minimum order was 100 yards of a given pattern = $1000+. This was more of a commitment than most manufacturers/retailers want to/were capable of making. + We couldn't offer terms.
      • We were also unable to supply swatches.
        • Now: No minimums. Terms are available. Swatches are available. We have 100 patterns - more are being added - from which to choose.
Ralph Lauren has made a substantial monthly order.

I spoke with Ethan Huber (O'Connell's/Buffalo) earlier this week. He's not interested.

You want a Ivy/Trad retailer to offer it? We request you speak to them about it.
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Ralphy boy has done more than anyone to keep madras and bold plaids alive in shirting.

I had a button-down made in the Mercer madras, but sadly it got red-wined and he had run out of the cloth. Mighty fine it was too!
 
aucociscokid said:
I'm Aleck Grishkevich and am in Venice and Palm Desert, CA.
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Welcome to the forum, Alex!

aucociscokid said:
So, AUTHENTIC, handloomed "bleeding" madras is going to be COMMERCIALLY available once again and for the first time in 45+ years.
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That is great news, and I look forward to hearing more.

aucociscokid said:
Both a full placket and pullover Gant "Hugger" button-down shirt - 3 3/8" points on a 3 button collar, lined and un-bonded, 6 button closure on a placket front. Pearlized buttons, hand attached. Pattern matched, single breast pocket. Sleeves terminating at cuff with two tidy pleats. Single button barrel cuffs with high button placement. Big box pleat centered on yoke with a locker loop above.
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Sounds fantastic - so RTW versions of this will be available online?
 
Thank you for welcoming me, Journeyman, and for your interest.

Glad to be a member!

Yes! RTW "bleeding" madras shirts and casual jackets will be available from CAMESSI on Farfetch beginning in June.

Take a look at CAMESSI. Look at the extraordinary craftsmanship of all of their garments.

They also have a OCBB shirt which will also be available on-line. See it on f/b. The 12/05/18 post.''

Ralph Lauren has also place a substantial yardage order.

Other merchants/retailers can also buy piece goods from us to manufacturer into their own garments.
 
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We'll start taking pre-orders on Instagram/Amazon for King Madras - the 1st authentic hand loomed commercially available "bleeding" madras - shirts in early April. They'll be long-sleeved OCBD and slubby. Spread the word!
 
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aucociscokid said:
The 1st "bleeding" madras shirt on gone up for sale on Etsy.


https://www.etsy.com/listing/696576...as&ref=sr_gallery-1-18&organic_search_click=1

All hand loomed fabric and a completely handmade shirt.

A "QR" code is attached to each which allows the purchaser to know (and communicate directly with) the weaver in India and the atelier in Europe (Italy, France, Spain, or Portugal) where the garment was made.
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for a hundred and twenty dollars a pop we should be getting suzanne summers style letters letting us know how their lives are.
 
aucociscokid said:
The 1st "bleeding" madras shirt on gone up for sale on Etsy.
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The fabric looks nice.

A couple of quick questions:
a) Any chance of a button-down collar; and
b) What are the sizes like - any chance of measurements, or a comparison to another shirt such as a Brooks Brothers sports shirt?
 
Journeyman said:
The fabric looks nice.

A couple of quick questions:
a) Any chance of a button-down collar; and
b) What are the sizes like - any chance of measurements, or a comparison to another shirt such as a Brooks Brothers sports shirt?
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Yes button down collar is the least I would expect for bleeding madras. Short sleeves would be nice too. That said, good luck with this project.
 
Well... I gave in and I'm going to follow the advice of you guys. I put up a button down shirt. 18 different fabric variations. 3 fits (slim, normal, loose) w/6 sizing options each. It has a split yoke. Locker loop. 3rd collar button. The 18 fabrics can also be bought as piece goods, if you choose to make your own shirts, sports jackets, etc. The shirts will be made by the same seamstresses in Ohio who make Dave Mercer's, although his is more of a Brooks Bros. shirt and ours is more of a 1960s Gant Hugger (esp. in the trim fit).


I'd like to ask you guys a BIG favor. If you like what you see - as I hope you will - cold you post that fact that bleeding madras is available on Etsy on any other forums of which you are members: AskAndy, StyleForum, Film Noir Buff, etc. You know the ones. I couldn't thank you enough if you did.

If you want a short sleeve or short sleeve pull over send a "Message to Seller" when you order on Etsy and I'll be glad to make it.

It's also being offered as piece goods. So, if you know a shirtmaker say, you can get a CMT shirt for <$100.

Also: Do your own sports jackets, shorts, trousers, etc.

Here's the sizing chart (Just to give you an idea. The columns got thrown out of kilter when I copied-and-pasted it from there > here. Sorry.):

Measurement tables for shirts
Please note that we always recommend that you take your own measurements, either from your body or a shirt you like
Mens slim fit
XS S M L XL XXL
Collar 14 1/8" 15" 15 3/4" 16 1/2" 17 3/8" 18 1/8"
Shirt Length 28 3/4" 29 7/8" 31 1/8 " 31 1/2" 31 7/8" 32 1/4"
Shoulder Width 16 17 3/4" 18 1/8" 18 7/8" 19 1/4" 20 1/8"
Sleeve Length 25 1/4" 25 5/8" 25 5/8" 26" 26 3/8" 26 3/4"
Chest 37 3/4" 39 3/8" 41 3/4" 4 4 7/8" 48" 51 1/8"
Waist 33 7/8" 36 1/4" 39 3/8" 42 1/2" 45 5/8" 48 7/8"
Sleeve Width (at Armpit) 9 1/2" 9 7/8" 10 1/4" 10 5/8" 11 3/8" 11 3/4"
Cuffs 8 1/4" 8 1/4" 8 5/8" 8 5/8" 9 " 9 1/2"
Hips 37" 38 5/8" 41" 44 1/8" 47 1/4" 50 3/8"


Normal fit
XS S M L XL XXL
Collar 14 1/8" 15" 15 3/4" 16 1/2" 17 3/8" 18 1/8"
Shirt Length 28 3/4" 29 7/8" 31 1/8 " 31 1/2" 31 7/8" 32 1/4"
Shoulder Width 16 7/8" 18 7/8" 19 1/4" 20 1/8" 20 7/8" 22"
Sleeve Length (normal) 25 1/4" 25 5/8" 25 5/8" 26" 26 3/8" 26 3/4"
Chest 44 7/8" 46 1/2" 48" 49 5/8" 52" 54 3/8"
Waist 41 3/4" 43 1/4" 44 7/8" 46 1/2" 51 1/8" 53 1/2"
Sleeve Width (at Armpit) 11" 11 3/8" 11 3/4" 11 3/4" 12 5/8" 13"
Cuffs 8 5/8" 8 5/8" 9 " 9 " 9 1/2" 9 7/8"
Hips 44 1/8" 45 5/8" 47 1/4" 48 7/8" 51 1/8" 53 1/2"


Loose fit
XS S M L XL XXL
Collar 14 1/8" 15" 15 3/4" 16 1/2" 17 3/8" 18 1/8"
Shirt Length 28 3/4" 29 7/8" 31 1/8 " 31 1/2" 31 7/8" 32 1/4"
Shoulder Width 16 7/8" 18 7/8" 19 1/4" 20 1/8" 20 7/8" 22"
Sleeve Length (normal) 25 1/4" 25 5/8" 25 5/8" 26" 26 3/8" 26 3/4"
Chest 44 7/8" 46 1/2" 48" 49 5/8" 52" 54 3/8"
Waist 44 7/8" 46 1/2" 48" 49 5/8" 52" 54 3/8"
Sleeve Width (at Armpit) 11 3/8" 11 3/4" 12 1/4" 12 1/4" 13" 13 3/8"
Cuffs 8 5/8" 8 5/8" 9 " 9 " 9 1/2" 9 7/8"
Hips 44 7/8" 46 1/2" 48" 49 5/8" 52" 54 3/8"
 
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Hey, guys! If any members here clicked on to the Etsy listing, the size chart was all goofed up; when are looked at on my lap top using Chrome, all the columns were straight. On my phone they weren't though. I fixed the issue by posting a link to this chart, which is more readable. I also added to the description: 3 3/8" points on a 3 button collar, lined and un-bonded, 6 button closure on a placket front. Pearlized buttons, hand attached. Pattern matched, single breast pocket. Sleeves terminating at cuff with two tidy pleats. Single button barrel cuffs with high button placement. Big box pleat centered on yoke with a locker loop above.
 
The statement that there is no authentic, "bleeding" madras - handloomed, Azo-free direct dyed - available anywhere in commercial quantities is accurate. (Source: AskAndy.)

We've also revised the product description for our "bleeding" madras on Etsy. Copied-and-pasted below. Appreciate your telling you friends. Postings on other menswear and fashion blogs and forums. Thanks.

The return of a classic." David Hodgkins. David Wood Clothiers. Portland, Maine.

"Bleeding" does not refer to the dye "bleeding" out of a fabric - as into the water in which it is being laundered or soaked - but, rather the colors "bleeding" into one another while remaining on the fabric, making for a very beautiful, unusual, and unique garment.

"There was a time in American history when bleeding madras was the king of style. You would go to church and twin boys wore matching madras shirts, their father wore a bleeding madras sport coat, their mother a bleeding madras scarf. High school hallways were a riot of bright plaid with props given to kids with shirts that had faded, with colors that bled so the shirt became more individual, more of a work of art. Then it stopped." Herald News, Fall River, Massachusetts, October, 15, 2015.

Our fabric is DIRECT DYED using AZO-FREE DYES.

"...Ralph Lauren, etc. use autoloomed, VAT dyed fabric. VAT dyes are harmful to the environment and have been identified as carcinogenic. Leith's madras appears to be powerloomed and vegetable dyed. While vegetable dyes are the most expensive, they only "bleed" a few times. Although I was under the impression that madras in the 1960s - The Real McCoy - were vegetable-dyed, they were in fact direct dyed. The statement that there is no authentic, "bleeding" madras - handloomed, Azo-free direct dyed - available anywhere in commercial quantities is accurate. In 1960s, the cotton used was 40s; the reason that - while BB OCBD from even the 1950s are still wearable - there's almost no such thing as vintage madras. The statement that there is no high-quality, authentic vintage madras may also be accurate." drlivingston in AskAndy's Trad Forum, June 16, 2016.

It takes MORE THAN A DAY for a weaver to produce a sufficient amount of fabric FOR ONE SHIRT and 100 yards is the minimum amount which can be woven.

Of the 4.3m handloomers in India, < 0.1% will weave madras. The overwhelming majority make lungis, which are more profitable.

Compare a MTO so-called "bleeding" madras shirt from Mercer and Sons at $190.

The shirts have 3/8" points on a 3 button collar, lined and un-bonded, 6 button closure on a placket front. Pearlized buttons, hand attached. Pattern matched, single breast pocket. Sleeves terminating at cuff with two tidy pleats. Single button barrel cuffs with high button placement. Big box pleat centered on yoke with a locker loop above.

They are MTO. Hand-cut from a paper pattern.

Fabric: Hand Loomed in Tamil Nadu, India.
Shirts: Made in the USA.

More patterns on: MTO "Bleeding" Madras Shirt: The Rarest, Most Unique and Beautiful, Fabric There Is. Available for the 1st Time in 50 Years! (2).

For a size chart, click on: https://www.moderntailor.com/pub/index.do?action=measurementininches
 
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