Brexit - The UK and the EU

Fwiffo

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“Britain has other problems than Brexit - and these problems have gotten bigger with Brexit, trying to cover that up, but they are just going to get bigger.”
 

Scherensammler

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“Britain has other problems than Brexit - and these problems have gotten bigger with Brexit, trying to cover that up, but they are just going to get bigger.”
Wait, isn't he interfering with the elections in a sovereign country?
Labour is now all over and about climate change, so I expect Corbyn to meet with Greta™ at some point.
It seems that all parties now promise to open the magic money vaults and spend big. Until, of course, after the election, when they find out that the vaults are empty.
 

Fwiffo

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Wait, isn't he interfering with the elections in a sovereign country?
Labour is now all over and about climate change, so I expect Corbyn to meet with Greta™ at some point.
It seems that all parties now promise to open the magic money vaults and spend big. Until, of course, after the election, when they find out that the vaults are empty.
Greta is on the west coast. It will take her more than a week to go back to the Atlantic shore by environmentally friendly donkeys and then someone has to sail her across choppy Atlantic waters. Reckon the elections will be over by the time she shows up. If only she could bring herself to fly on a 737 max.
 

Scherensammler

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Greta is on the west coast. It will take her more than a week to go back to the Atlantic shore by environmentally friendly donkeys and then someone has to sail her across choppy Atlantic waters. Reckon the elections will be over by the time she shows up. If only she could bring herself to fly on a 737 max.
I saw she is friends with Leo DiCaprio now. Next time he flies to some film festival or premiere (or visits his latest model girlfriend during a photoshoot) he could take her with him. I'm sure Bill Clinton would loooove to be on that flight, too. Since Climate Change is totally his thing...
 

Pimpernel Smith

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I saw she is friends with Leo DiCaprio now. Next time he flies to some film festival or premiere (or visits his latest model girlfriend during a photoshoot) he could take her with him. I'm sure Bill Clinton would loooove to be on that flight, too. Since Climate Change is totally his thing...
It's clearly career suicide hanging around with Greta, just look at the new Arnold Schwarzenegger sans SUV's and cigars, tanking everywhere, respect all lost. But then again, I seem to remember that indiscretion with his rather average looking maid.
 

formby001

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Since when have we been taking advice/lectured off 16yo kids...?

What the phuck is wrong with these people....?
 

Fwiffo

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"The PM has said the UK will fully exit the EU by December 2020 if he wins the election and MPs approve his plan.

But the document says government will struggle to deliver the infrastructure and staffing needed by that deadline.

Throughout the election campaign, the PM has denied there will be checks in the Irish Sea, despite telling the BBC in the days after his deal was agreed that some checks would be needed."
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Many of your standards and codes are far more mature than the European ones. The API and ASME design codes are superior in every way to the EN ones which are mediocre copies.

The EU has been very lax on pesticides especially in Germany. And in the eggs here in the Netherlands.

Increased equitable business between the UK and USA is a definitive winner. As for the threat of Silicone Valley, well, where else are we going to go for our computer technology, China? Or the Euro zone?
 

Rambo

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Many of your standards and codes are far more mature than the European ones. The API and ASME design codes are superior in every way to the EN ones which are mediocre copies.
jesus you're really a technocrat aren't you? yes, lets sell out the last good thing that british society has so that we can update our codes in our book.

The EU has been very lax on pesticides especially in Germany. And in the eggs here in the Netherlands.
yes but still stronger than the US. here they put glyphosate directly into the coke machines.

Increased equitable business between the UK and USA is a definitive winner. As for the threat of Silicone Valley, well, where else are we going to go for our computer technology, China? Or the Euro zone?
you can buy computer technology anywhere you want. you don't need to sell the NHS down the river to accomplish that.
 

Fwiffo

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I am unsure anyone ever has equitable business relationships with the US. Take it from their largest trading partner. Things always work for the Americans even if the WTO sides with you. That said the money is good.
 

Kingstonian

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A desperate Pat Condell on Conservatives and Labour.

George Carlin was probably right all along. Voting does not change anything.
 

formby001

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All hail Good King Boris
He won decisively, but his Government needs to offer something more than electoral success and some infrastructure projects
BY Maurice Glasman

December 20, 2019


With one throw of the dice, Boris Johnson broke the Brexit interregnum. After three years of frantic inertia, he resolved the impasse through transforming the class basis of the Conservative Party. In doing so, he has renewed his party for a generation and ripped into the Labour heartlands by aligning Brexit with national renewal and exposing the class divisions within Labour by siding with the poor.

Although the Conservatives led across every social class, their lead in the skilled and unskilled working class was particularly emphatic. Boris has no equal in cabinet. There is no coherent opposition, his majority is impregnable and all his MPs have signed up to his agenda. Hail Caesar. Meet the new King of Merry England. Good King Boris.
His goal is to make his domination hegemonic through two measures. The first is to identify the Tories with the working class and the country towns and distance them from London and finance. Putney went Labour and Bolsover went Tory. Look up the difference in house prices between the two. It is a class polarisation against the ruling financial and cultural elite.
Ministers have been banned from going to Davos. The Conservative vote went down across the home counties, and especially those areas nearest London. That was the logic behind proroguing Parliament and the expulsion of the remain rebels from the Party. The Conservatives were happy for them to vote Lib-Dem and Labour. Instead the party concentrated entirely on the towns and villages of the North and the South, the country shires and the post-industrial working class, the basis of the Brexit coalition. “Fuck business.” The Conservatives will be more northern and proletarian and Boris will drink beer with his new MPs in the many bars in Parliament. The Cavaliers will lord it over the Puritans.

The second step was to break from fiscal orthodoxy and embrace the activist state. Expect to see a thousand Boris busses bombing around the country lanes of England in partnership with local government. Expect a house building boom. The PM will violate EU rules on state aid and competition law with relish, while Labour will cleave to the constraints of the single market and the rulings of the ECJ.
During the election campaign, the Conservatives pledged state aid to small regional businesses while not pointing out that half of Labour’s manifesto would have been illegal under EU Law. They quietly renounced Thatcherism. Boris will be the heir to Keynes while Labour will uphold the rectitude of Hayek forever enshrined in the Lisbon Treaty and its sovereignty over the single market and customs union. While Boris will point out the distinction between free trade and free movement, Labour won’t know the difference between the two. The interregnum has been broken, and as in 1979 its broken to the right.
Pope Francis said recently that we are not living through an era of change but a change of era. This Conservative victory is an important part of defining what the features of the new era are. The previous consensus was defined by four shared assumptions; that the nation state, democracy, the working class and conservatism would matter less. The dominant forces were the educated middle-class, globalisation, written constitutions and liberalism. Blair and Cameron expressed this perfectly.
Brexit is a sign of the times, a glimpse of the future but the progressive mind can only see it as reactionary, nostalgic and backward looking. The decisive role of the working class in asserting national sovereignty through its democratic vote in order to renew the ancient institutions of Parliament and the common law is incomprehensible to the left. The new era is a foreign country for those who thought the arc of history was with them.

The scale of Labour’s defeat last Thursday is hard for the progressive mind to comprehend. Like the death of a loved one, who has survived terrible illness before, it is both shocking and predictable. The responses of blame, avoidance, denial, anger, displacement and depression from the Labour family are also shocking and predictable. Labour is like a family from hell. Full of hate and blame and unable to understand how it got here. Labour is no longer a tribe and has lost its homeland. It’s gonna be lonely this Christmas.
This is because Labour is out of relationship with its history, traditions and the communities that created and cherished it. So out of touch that it couldn’t see the rejection coming. It now shares the entropic fate of the French, Italian, German, Belgian and Dutch Labour Parties, who have shrunk progressively into irrelevance, replaced by nationalist and Green Parties on the whole. Drained of their national purpose by the constraints of the European Union, social democracy has no conception of the social, or of democracy. Labour now shares their fate which means irrelevance and endless meetings that go nowhere. Just a slow and inexorable decline. It marks the end of British exceptionalism on the Left, just as we leave the EU.
It could have been so different. In 2017, when Labour said it respected the result of the referendum, it surged through the final two weeks of the campaign. The Conservatives, running on the policy of ‘lose your mind, lose your home’, turned a Brexit election into a discussion of the financial consequences of dementia.
There were indications of disaffection as Mansfield and North Derby turned blue; but the heartlands believed that Corbyn was a faithful son of Tony Benn and he had spent a lifetime denouncing the EU as a capitalist club where no-one was accountable. Against the current of continental Europe, Labour alone was a vital and renewed social-democratic party committed to nationalisation and the redistribution of wealth. Brexit was a source of socialist renewal and democracy was re-affirmed as the means of resisting the domination of the rich and their decades of relentless plundering. But, then, Corbyn’s Labour renounced Brexit.
https://unherd.com/2019/10/how-motherhood-put-an-end-to-my-liberalism/?=refinnar
One of the reasons why the election result seemed so shocking was that the working class were supposed to be on the wrong side of history, to not really matter anymore. Despite the result of the Brexit referendum, it was assumed that the task for Labour was to build a coalition of ‘progressive’ voters around a second referendum which they called a ‘people’s vote’. The difference between 2017 and 2019 was that the working class noted that Labour was blocking Brexit and denying the legitimacy of their vote. Corbyn’s Labour sided with global capitalism. It is a minor irony in all this that Andrew Murray and Seamus Milne, who prided themselves on their Marxist analysis with a central role for class ran a campaign based on ‘values’ and were trounced by the Conservatives who placed a relentless stress on the working class and transferring their loyalties. Labour Marxists turned out to be Whigs. What a lot of luggage for such a short journey.
The deep complicity between New Labour and the Corbyn Project was shown here. The progressive certainty that history was going in one direction, towards the free movement of people and things, that technology would dissolve place and borders in an undifferentiated swirl in which only the individual and Treaty law mattered.
That the future was based on globalisation was unquestioned between them, as was the idea that the nation state and democracy no longer really mattered. This Whig theory of history is as untrue now as it ever was. The working class, the Nation-State and democracy are key features of the new era. Far from being losers, the post-industrial working class has decided the two most significant votes of our time.
https://unherd.com/2019/03/does-class-still-count/?=refinnar
And the Left was the loser. The progressive illness has dissolved the ties that bind because it has no concept of society, of the social, of belonging and inheritance. Trapped in an endless now, it lost the future. The coalition of Peter Mandelson and John McDonnell that tied Labour to a second referendum is the key to understanding the catastrophic defeat because it finally ruptured the connection between the working class and Labour. It said, you didn’t know what you were doing. It said that democracy does not decide issues in our society. It said that it had no faith in our country to decide its future through democratic politics but that it had to be contracted out to an unaccountable system of directives and laws.
By embracing a second referendum, Labour crossed a line. It no longer supported workers who trusted democracy more than the European Court of Justice when it came to their rights. Labour thought that the consequences would be catastrophic and displayed no confidence that our country could flourish outside frictionless capitalism. The Left suddenly became experts in just-in-time supply chains as if capitalism, the most adaptable economic system ever devised, would not be able to cope. They were not faithful to the marriage and it is now over. There is no evidence that there will be a reconciliation.
At the last election, Labour lost Mansfield by a thousand votes. Now the majority is more than 16,000. The Scottish working-class have not returned to Labour, but moved to a nationalist party and show no sign of remorse. Once rejected, they move on and don’t look back. In Michael Lind’s recent book, the New Class War, he makes the connection between class and geography, between hubs and heartlands. Labour is the party of the hubs, but the Conservatives now lay claim to the heartlands.

And beyond the immediate devastation of defeat, is the existential horror of what it means. The severing of the long-term marriage with the working class that created the Labour Party in the first place. It opens the space for the emergence of a genuinely nasty right-wing populist Party as an alternative to Labour and the Conservatives. The Brexit Party is merely a mild taster of what the future portends. The Conservative vote only rose a few percent overall, many former Labour voters went for the Brexit Party. What was clear is that the Labour vote collapsed in the heartlands and the Brexit Party saved more Labour seats than it lost.
The glory of Labour was its ability to express the Labour interest within the framework of the inherited Parliamentary and legal institutions asserting democratic politics as an alternative to violence. While the rest of Europe did polarise and went Fascist or Communist, Labour retained the affections of the working-class and engaged in the politics of war and peace. Defeating the Nazis in the War Coalition and then creating the National Health Service, nationalising steel, coal and the railways, creating the National Trust and the Green Belt.
The virtues of civility, generosity, and kindness in the public square are easily dismissed and hard to retain. Labour was the source of that politics and with its departure from the working-class communities it used to represent, a sullen resentful politics looms. Something closer to the Front National or the Afd in Germany.
The new Government needs to offer something more than electoral success and some infrastructure projects; it needs to build on the politics of earning and belonging, of contribution and civic renewal. Over the past 40 years, the counties and towns of our country have been denuded of its assets and inheritance. None of the building societies that were demutualised in the last 40 years exist any longer as local institutions. The endowment of regional banks so that there is access to capital once more is an essential part of that. The recognition of vocation is also essential and the establishment of vocational colleges for building, maintenance, social care and taxi driving with apprenticeship laws that regulate labour market entry would address the skills required for building homes, caring for the elderly and the 85% of the economy that functions outside globalisation.
The dignity of labour is the foundation of this. It should be the basis of Labour’s alternative. The central question for the next ten years is whether the Conservatives can recognise that their future now lies with labour.
 

Kingstonian

Well-Known Member
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1,918
All hail Good King Boris
He won decisively, but his Government needs to offer something more than electoral success and some infrastructure projects
BY Maurice Glasman

December 20, 2019


With one throw of the dice, Boris Johnson broke the Brexit interregnum. After three years of frantic inertia, he resolved the impasse through transforming the class basis of the Conservative Party. In doing so, he has renewed his party for a generation and ripped into the Labour heartlands by aligning Brexit with national renewal and exposing the class divisions within Labour by siding with the poor.

Although the Conservatives led across every social class, their lead in the skilled and unskilled working class was particularly emphatic. Boris has no equal in cabinet. There is no coherent opposition, his majority is impregnable and all his MPs have signed up to his agenda. Hail Caesar. Meet the new King of Merry England. Good King Boris.
His goal is to make his domination hegemonic through two measures. The first is to identify the Tories with the working class and the country towns and distance them from London and finance. Putney went Labour and Bolsover went Tory. Look up the difference in house prices between the two. It is a class polarisation against the ruling financial and cultural elite.
Ministers have been banned from going to Davos. The Conservative vote went down across the home counties, and especially those areas nearest London. That was the logic behind proroguing Parliament and the expulsion of the remain rebels from the Party. The Conservatives were happy for them to vote Lib-Dem and Labour. Instead the party concentrated entirely on the towns and villages of the North and the South, the country shires and the post-industrial working class, the basis of the Brexit coalition. “Fuck business.” The Conservatives will be more northern and proletarian and Boris will drink beer with his new MPs in the many bars in Parliament. The Cavaliers will lord it over the Puritans.

The second step was to break from fiscal orthodoxy and embrace the activist state. Expect to see a thousand Boris busses bombing around the country lanes of England in partnership with local government. Expect a house building boom. The PM will violate EU rules on state aid and competition law with relish, while Labour will cleave to the constraints of the single market and the rulings of the ECJ.
During the election campaign, the Conservatives pledged state aid to small regional businesses while not pointing out that half of Labour’s manifesto would have been illegal under EU Law. They quietly renounced Thatcherism. Boris will be the heir to Keynes while Labour will uphold the rectitude of Hayek forever enshrined in the Lisbon Treaty and its sovereignty over the single market and customs union. While Boris will point out the distinction between free trade and free movement, Labour won’t know the difference between the two. The interregnum has been broken, and as in 1979 its broken to the right.
Pope Francis said recently that we are not living through an era of change but a change of era. This Conservative victory is an important part of defining what the features of the new era are. The previous consensus was defined by four shared assumptions; that the nation state, democracy, the working class and conservatism would matter less. The dominant forces were the educated middle-class, globalisation, written constitutions and liberalism. Blair and Cameron expressed this perfectly.
Brexit is a sign of the times, a glimpse of the future but the progressive mind can only see it as reactionary, nostalgic and backward looking. The decisive role of the working class in asserting national sovereignty through its democratic vote in order to renew the ancient institutions of Parliament and the common law is incomprehensible to the left. The new era is a foreign country for those who thought the arc of history was with them.

The scale of Labour’s defeat last Thursday is hard for the progressive mind to comprehend. Like the death of a loved one, who has survived terrible illness before, it is both shocking and predictable. The responses of blame, avoidance, denial, anger, displacement and depression from the Labour family are also shocking and predictable. Labour is like a family from hell. Full of hate and blame and unable to understand how it got here. Labour is no longer a tribe and has lost its homeland. It’s gonna be lonely this Christmas.
This is because Labour is out of relationship with its history, traditions and the communities that created and cherished it. So out of touch that it couldn’t see the rejection coming. It now shares the entropic fate of the French, Italian, German, Belgian and Dutch Labour Parties, who have shrunk progressively into irrelevance, replaced by nationalist and Green Parties on the whole. Drained of their national purpose by the constraints of the European Union, social democracy has no conception of the social, or of democracy. Labour now shares their fate which means irrelevance and endless meetings that go nowhere. Just a slow and inexorable decline. It marks the end of British exceptionalism on the Left, just as we leave the EU.
It could have been so different. In 2017, when Labour said it respected the result of the referendum, it surged through the final two weeks of the campaign. The Conservatives, running on the policy of ‘lose your mind, lose your home’, turned a Brexit election into a discussion of the financial consequences of dementia.
There were indications of disaffection as Mansfield and North Derby turned blue; but the heartlands believed that Corbyn was a faithful son of Tony Benn and he had spent a lifetime denouncing the EU as a capitalist club where no-one was accountable. Against the current of continental Europe, Labour alone was a vital and renewed social-democratic party committed to nationalisation and the redistribution of wealth. Brexit was a source of socialist renewal and democracy was re-affirmed as the means of resisting the domination of the rich and their decades of relentless plundering. But, then, Corbyn’s Labour renounced Brexit.
https://unherd.com/2019/10/how-motherhood-put-an-end-to-my-liberalism/?=refinnar
One of the reasons why the election result seemed so shocking was that the working class were supposed to be on the wrong side of history, to not really matter anymore. Despite the result of the Brexit referendum, it was assumed that the task for Labour was to build a coalition of ‘progressive’ voters around a second referendum which they called a ‘people’s vote’. The difference between 2017 and 2019 was that the working class noted that Labour was blocking Brexit and denying the legitimacy of their vote. Corbyn’s Labour sided with global capitalism. It is a minor irony in all this that Andrew Murray and Seamus Milne, who prided themselves on their Marxist analysis with a central role for class ran a campaign based on ‘values’ and were trounced by the Conservatives who placed a relentless stress on the working class and transferring their loyalties. Labour Marxists turned out to be Whigs. What a lot of luggage for such a short journey.
The deep complicity between New Labour and the Corbyn Project was shown here. The progressive certainty that history was going in one direction, towards the free movement of people and things, that technology would dissolve place and borders in an undifferentiated swirl in which only the individual and Treaty law mattered.
That the future was based on globalisation was unquestioned between them, as was the idea that the nation state and democracy no longer really mattered. This Whig theory of history is as untrue now as it ever was. The working class, the Nation-State and democracy are key features of the new era. Far from being losers, the post-industrial working class has decided the two most significant votes of our time.
https://unherd.com/2019/03/does-class-still-count/?=refinnar
And the Left was the loser. The progressive illness has dissolved the ties that bind because it has no concept of society, of the social, of belonging and inheritance. Trapped in an endless now, it lost the future. The coalition of Peter Mandelson and John McDonnell that tied Labour to a second referendum is the key to understanding the catastrophic defeat because it finally ruptured the connection between the working class and Labour. It said, you didn’t know what you were doing. It said that democracy does not decide issues in our society. It said that it had no faith in our country to decide its future through democratic politics but that it had to be contracted out to an unaccountable system of directives and laws.
By embracing a second referendum, Labour crossed a line. It no longer supported workers who trusted democracy more than the European Court of Justice when it came to their rights. Labour thought that the consequences would be catastrophic and displayed no confidence that our country could flourish outside frictionless capitalism. The Left suddenly became experts in just-in-time supply chains as if capitalism, the most adaptable economic system ever devised, would not be able to cope. They were not faithful to the marriage and it is now over. There is no evidence that there will be a reconciliation.
At the last election, Labour lost Mansfield by a thousand votes. Now the majority is more than 16,000. The Scottish working-class have not returned to Labour, but moved to a nationalist party and show no sign of remorse. Once rejected, they move on and don’t look back. In Michael Lind’s recent book, the New Class War, he makes the connection between class and geography, between hubs and heartlands. Labour is the party of the hubs, but the Conservatives now lay claim to the heartlands.

And beyond the immediate devastation of defeat, is the existential horror of what it means. The severing of the long-term marriage with the working class that created the Labour Party in the first place. It opens the space for the emergence of a genuinely nasty right-wing populist Party as an alternative to Labour and the Conservatives. The Brexit Party is merely a mild taster of what the future portends. The Conservative vote only rose a few percent overall, many former Labour voters went for the Brexit Party. What was clear is that the Labour vote collapsed in the heartlands and the Brexit Party saved more Labour seats than it lost.
The glory of Labour was its ability to express the Labour interest within the framework of the inherited Parliamentary and legal institutions asserting democratic politics as an alternative to violence. While the rest of Europe did polarise and went Fascist or Communist, Labour retained the affections of the working-class and engaged in the politics of war and peace. Defeating the Nazis in the War Coalition and then creating the National Health Service, nationalising steel, coal and the railways, creating the National Trust and the Green Belt.
The virtues of civility, generosity, and kindness in the public square are easily dismissed and hard to retain. Labour was the source of that politics and with its departure from the working-class communities it used to represent, a sullen resentful politics looms. Something closer to the Front National or the Afd in Germany.
The new Government needs to offer something more than electoral success and some infrastructure projects; it needs to build on the politics of earning and belonging, of contribution and civic renewal. Over the past 40 years, the counties and towns of our country have been denuded of its assets and inheritance. None of the building societies that were demutualised in the last 40 years exist any longer as local institutions. The endowment of regional banks so that there is access to capital once more is an essential part of that. The recognition of vocation is also essential and the establishment of vocational colleges for building, maintenance, social care and taxi driving with apprenticeship laws that regulate labour market entry would address the skills required for building homes, caring for the elderly and the 85% of the economy that functions outside globalisation.
The dignity of labour is the foundation of this. It should be the basis of Labour’s alternative. The central question for the next ten years is whether the Conservatives can recognise that their future now lies with labour.
The Labour Party is mortally wounded. It will need to be replaced -maybe by something along the lines of the original Cooperative Movement - and ditch many of the fashionable issues associated with the current Labour Party.

Labour’s demise boosted Conservatives. Boris Johnson is primarily concerned with the welfare of Boris Johnson. Conservatives’ number one isssue is the strength of the Conservative Party.

What happens eventually on Brexit remains to be seen. Will it be a true Brexit or a reheated May ‘Brexit in Name Only’?

There is still much work to be done on reforming the system - The House of Lords, patronage, lobbies, special interest groups. However, Conservatives will not do anything if it harms the interests of the Conservative Party.
 

formby001

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660
The Labour Party is mortally wounded. It will need to be replaced -maybe by something along the lines of the original Cooperative Movement - and ditch many of the fashionable issues associated with the current Labour Party.

Labour’s demise boosted Conservatives. Boris Johnson is primarily concerned with the welfare of Boris Johnson. Conservatives’ number one isssue is the strength of the Conservative Party.

What happens eventually on Brexit remains to be seen. Will it be a true Brexit or a reheated May ‘Brexit in Name Only’?

There is still much work to be done on reforming the system - The House of Lords, patronage, lobbies, special interest groups. However, Conservatives will not do anything if it harms the interests of the Conservative Party.
I've often heard this, but political self-interest isn't necessarily incompatible with national-self-interest.

I've always been intrigued by Lewis Namier's viewpoint:

'Namier used sources such as wills and tax records to reveal the interests of the MPs. In his time, his methods were new and quite controversial. His obsession with collecting facts such as club membership of various MPs and then attempting to correlate them with voting patterns led his critics to accuse him of "taking ideas out of history".[11] Namier, an elite theorist, was well known for his dislike of ideas and people who believed in them, and made little secret of his belief that the best political system was that of a grasping and self-interested ruling elite.'
 

Scherensammler

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3,557
The scale of Labour's defeat was surprising, but probably not unexpected by those in the know, even within the Labour party.
That they lost so badly shows how out of touch socialist/ globalist parties have become.
They've tried everything: Climate change, free education and re-nationalisation of key services and industries and they had the support of every globalist/ left wing media outlet in the Western world.
The BBC was throwing such a big huff because Boris Johnson wouldn't show up to be "interviewed" on TV and radio before the election date, it was hilarious.
Over on the continent the people are fed up with their globalist governments. See the unrest in Spain and France and I'm sure the Lega by Matteo Salvini will make a slow but glorious return to power in Italy.
In Germany the main parties cling to their power, no matter what, forming the weirdest coalitions, only to keep out the AfD on state level.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Over on the continent the people are fed up with their globalist governments.
With corrupt clowns like these, who can blame them:

 

Scherensammler

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3,557
Is that the nazi party?
If you equate Nazi to far right then yes.
so yes then
Don't believe everything the corporate MSM tells you.
Just because you are opposed to mass immigration, prefer law and order over the shit that is happening in Europe caused by mass immigration doesn't make you a Nazi.
You will be delighted to know that Jewish Germans have joined the AfD in droves, because the left wing parties want to import more antisemitic folk from the middle East.
 

Fwiffo

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Don't believe everything the corporate MSM tells you.
Just because you are opposed to mass immigration, prefer law and order over the shit that is happening in Europe caused by mass immigration doesn't make you a Nazi.
You will be delighted to know that Jewish Germans have joined the AfD in droves, because the left wing parties want to import more antisemitic folk from the middle East.
My Bavarian colleagues aren't fond of them when I spoke to them about it last year. They said most people there are parking their votes in protest but have no idea what the AfD agenda is.
 

Fwiffo

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Meanwhile France is on the brink:

Liberte, egalite, fraternite. The British are so polarized and the home nations all wanting more or wanting out have only...one of those tenets?
 

Scherensammler

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3,557
My Bavarian colleagues aren't fond of them when I spoke to them about it last year. They said most people there are parking their votes in protest but have no idea what the AfD agenda is.
Most Bavarians used to vote for CSU (Christian Social Union) with maybe the exception of some bigger cities. CSU normally had a vast majority in Bavarian government and also had a big say in the government of Germany. From what I read on various websites they have betrayed their conservative core voters by supporting the globalist agenda. They're still fine with weapons exports, though. A political party needs donations after all...
 

Pimpernel Smith

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5,244
Don't believe everything the corporate MSM tells you.
Just because you are opposed to mass immigration, prefer law and order over the shit that is happening in Europe caused by mass immigration doesn't make you a Nazi.
Someone better tell Angela Merkel that!

The current strategy of the liberal establishment in mainland Europe is ever more contorted coalitions in a desperate attempt to hold onto power. The result is starting to get messy and you see cracks forming in once steady countries like the Netherlands. Draconian Soviet era targets to meet nitrogen levels that have brought new building and infrastructure projects to a halt, the targeting of live stock farmers as an undesirable class to be removed. Several nights of unrest and rioting in several neighborhoods in The Hague in the run-up to New Year.

The era of liberal technocracy is a fail, time to move over or face the bloody consequences.
 

formby001

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660
Everything you know about Europe is wrong
British liberals have created a Europe of their imagination, but how closely does it resemble reality?
BY Ed West





British liberals and Europe, the great love affair of our time (Photo by Daniel Leal-Olivas / AFP) (Photo credit should read DANIEL LEAL-OLIVAS/AFP via Getty Images)








Ed West

Ed West is the Deputy Editor of UnHerd. His book Small Men on the Wrong Side of History is published by Little, Brown in March 2020.

January 22, 2020




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Groupthink
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The apocryphal newspaper headline — “fog in the channel, continent isolated” — famously said something about the British mindset. It’s hardly surprising that we are insular — we are literally an island after all — but this insularity is something that curiously crosses all barriers in British social and political life, whether of Left or Right, middle or working class, and on almost every issue.
This is true even for British liberals who, reeling since the night of 23 June, 2016, have made the continent a sort of spiritual home as they’ve become alienated from their countrymen.
Right-thinking Britons see their country as an embarrassment sliding towards populism, a sad contrast to the moral superpower that is Germany and France under centrist leader Emmanuel Macron. Yet the Continent of the Anglo liberal imagination is as unreal as the supposed nostalgic Britain of yesteryear loved by Leavers.

Italy
Britain, many people fear, is moving away from the European dream and towards fascism. It’s such an established meme that even the most recent BBC Agatha Christie adaptation was a thinly-veiled analogy about 1930s fascism and Brexit.
Yet people keep on coming to this Nazi hellhole, with the fabled “Brexodus” of migrants leaving the country actually seeing an extra 212,000 people arriving last year, and with record numbers of foreign students, too.
The fascist Brexit Britain theory is held among a minority of Remainers because they’re measuring the country by a theoretical ideal rather than comparing it to other — real — countries. So while the hate crime “surge” following the referendum mostly involved very minor incidents, Italy saw a number of openly racist murders during the late 2010s.
Whether they’re connected or not, Italy has also had a populist Right-wing government in power for most of the past four years, and the Lega may well return — at around 33% in the polls, it is by some distance the most popular party. Italian politics has been, as long as anyone can remember, chaotic and unstable, which makes me wonder if Mary Beard’s Italian colleagues who make her feel “embarrassed” about Brexit have been paying attention to their own country.

France
A central theme of fascism is a love of violence against ideological opponents, and so a visitor from outer space with a vague understanding of our human political philosophy would probably conclude that there was only one fascist state in the EU — France, where the brutality of the police is on a scale that would be unfathomable in England.
Among the recent victims of the gleefully violent French police is a teenager who lost an eye in Strasbourg and an elderly woman in Marseilles who died from her injuries after being hit by a rubber bullet. Just this month prosecutors launched a probe after a video appeared to show a policeman firing point-blank at protestors with a riot control gun.
France is quite far down from Britain in the Freedom International rating, and treats minorities like Roma in a way that would do more than embarrass liberal Brits.
Right-wingers often complain that the horrific behaviour of the French police towards the gilets jaunes has received scant coverage in the BBC; certainly if Hungary or Poland treated their citizens like that, I’m pretty sure it would be on our news more. But then France has always been a politically violent country.
The last mass murder of protesters in England occurred in 1819, when 18 people were killed by authorities in Manchester; in France police in Paris killed up to three hundred unarmed protesters in 1961.
Had anything even vaguely comparable happened during the US Civil Rights era it would have been the subject of about 500 films and even my children in an English primary school would now be learning about it now. But then Anglo liberals are fascinated with the Anglo world; not so much by the continent.
France is different to England, in some ways far more traditional; for example, the same-sex marriage campaign there was opposed by enormous protests, while, like many continental countries, it has a 12-week limit for abortion, when even talk of a 20 weeks-limit would have the Anglo commentariat dressing up in those Handmaid’s Tale outfits.


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Germany
Germany also has strict laws on abortion and its rate is around a third that of England, while it only passed same-sex marriage in 2017, against the wishes of liberal idol Angela Merkel.
But no one cares, because a certain type of Anglo sees Germany as flame-carrier of all that is good and forward-thinking, locked in a battle with the forces of darkness towards the east — Hungary, Poland and especially Russia.
Yet Germany is, if not Russia’s ally, then a close trading partner; it has far, far better relations with the country than Britain does, largely built on energy supply, and Germany’s support for the Nord Stream gas pipeline makes it far easier for Moscow to exert pressure on the west. Europe’s biggest economy also gives far less in international aid than Britain, which donates more than any other country in the continent and is, proportionally, the sixth-most generous.

Scandinavia
Even more so, Scandinavia is seen as an ultra-progressive paradise to British progressives, especially those who — like me — enjoy Borgen. Yet neither Denmark nor Sweden are as social democratic as Anglos believe, with large private sector involvement in areas run by the state over here; in Denmark even the ambulances are privatised, while Sweden is fiscally more free market than the US, and has three times as many private health operations as Britain (proportionally).
Denmark also has immigration restrictions that would have British academics in full “Toby Young has said something” outrage mode — and these were put in place by its centre-Left party.
Are the Danes racist bigots? By any measurement they are among the most tolerant, liberal people on earth — they just don’t share the Anglo elite’s belief that immigration controls are necessarily immoral, a worldview that makes us quite unusual globally.
The Nordic countries generally also have fewer females in top jobs compared with the United States, and a smaller proportion of women studying STEM subjects than Islamic countries like Malaysia and Oman.
British progressives see patriotism, and particularly its violent, heroic element, to be positively primitive. Because they’re not keen on the idea of dying for their country they assume other liberal nations are like them — and yet the Swedes and Finn do not feel the same way and are positively gagging for a chance, way ahead of any other non-ex-Soviet European state.

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Racism
Although Britain has fallen to fascism, it curiously remains by most measurements one of the least racist countries, the least worried about inter-racial marriage, or living next door to people of a different race.
Britain is also unique among European countries in having a tiny education gap between the children of natives and immigrants, whereas in every continental country it is large.
Europeans are far less pro-immigration than Americans are, while Britons are among the most pro-immigration of Europeans, and public attitudes towards immigrants have softened further since the referendum.
Americans and Britons also have stronger sensitives about race than continental Europeans. Recently Italian football authorities decided to take a stand against racism in the game, so they hired artists to paint… monkeys. Many Italians are of course embarrassed by this, but something like that would never have seen the light of day in England.
On a similar note, every December lots of Anglo-liberals are shocked to learn that the Dutch have a festival once a year where people black up as Zwarte Piet, “Black Pete”.
Although it is true that the Netherlands is a more liberal — and generally better — version of England, it is different to ours. It also has a far stronger religious element, which might surprise people who rarely travel beyond Amsterdam. Britain’s progressive sibling even has its own Bible Belt, where women are discouraged from wearing short skirts and swearing is even prohibited in some communities.

Healthcare
Perhaps no subject brings out the parochial Brit more than healthcare, most of whom believe that there are two systems in the world: our NHS, and the American system where paramedics rifle through your wallet before giving you CPR. Most remain blissfully unaware that many of our neighbours do not have an NHS. Germany doesn’t. France doesn’t. Switzerland doesn’t.
Germany and France both have the “Bismarck system”, not the “Beveridge Model” used in Britain, and have much better healthcare outcomes.

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Citizenship
When the Home Secretary suggested that London-born jihadi Shamima Begum should be stripped of her nationality it was widely denounced as racist by UK media, American media, and even by Al Jazeera, the network owned by the not-at-all-racist Qatari state.
Is taking away the citizenship of a jihadi born in the country that odd? The Germans do it, and so do the Danes, and I wouldn’t call either of those countries fascist dystopias. Even the proposal to allow a jihadi bride with two children to return to Norway has brought down the country’s government, which includes the populist-right Progress Party.
But then the whole idea of jus soli — that being born in a state confers some natural right to live there — is far from universal. The French have long had it, and so have the Americans, yet it’s never been the norm in Germany or other countries. And why would it? Different countries have different traditions.

Free movement
Despite all the despair about Brexit taking away our freedom to live, love and travel the world, not many Brits choose to live in continental Europe.
Most who do are retirees in Spain, who aren’t taking the opportunity to explore the world but just want less winter in their autumn years. There are just 6,000 Brits in Poland, for example, about 0.6% of the number of Poles in Britain, while even the numbers in France are small compared to the French diasporas in London, and the age difference between the two groups is significant.
This isn’t a criticism – I live about 10 miles from where I grew up – but the rhetoric of Europeanism and of free movement isn’t matched by the reality.
Likewise with students and their opportunity to explore the continent; lots of young Britons would like to study in the EU, but then several non-EU states take part in the Erasmus scheme too, and the country they most want to live in is, of course, the United States.

International affairs
People who worry that Britain’s relations with our European partners also need to bear in mind that Italy and France are now so at loggerheads that they’re engaged in a sort of proxy war in Libya, each backing different shady militias in that benighted country.
In contrast Britain, France and Germany have grown increasingly close on military matters since 2016, a by-product of the United States’ inevitable drift away from Europe towards Asia, with various joint statements reflecting the stronger three-nation alliance.
There are two continental Europes: the fictional one of the British liberal imagination, and the reality; both are indeed lovely places, but they are rather different to each other; and despite globalisation, the internet and all that business, the continent still remains very much isolated.
 

Scherensammler

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,557
Re: Salvini and his Lega party. Since the chairman of the Movimento 5 Stelle (previously in a coalition with the Lega) has resigned today, Salvini might have a shot at becoming the new Italian Prime Minister after another general election.
There are 8 elections in 2020 in big Italian regions and the Lega might likely win them.
 

Pimpernel Smith

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,244
On a similar note, every December lots of Anglo-liberals are shocked to learn that the Dutch have a festival once a year where people black up as Zwarte Piet, “Black Pete”.
Although it is true that the Netherlands is a more liberal — and generally better — version of England, it is different to ours. It also has a far stronger religious element, which might surprise people who rarely travel beyond Amsterdam. Britain’s progressive sibling even has its own Bible Belt, where women are discouraged from wearing short skirts and swearing is even prohibited in some communities.

Healthcare
Perhaps no subject brings out the parochial Brit more than healthcare, most of whom believe that there are two systems in the world: our NHS, and the American system where paramedics rifle through your wallet before giving you CPR. Most remain blissfully unaware that many of our neighbours do not have an NHS. Germany doesn’t. France doesn’t. Switzerland doesn’t.
Germany and France both have the “Bismarck system”, not the “Beveridge Model” used in Britain, and have much better healthcare outcomes.
Suggested readingHow Brexit broke up the 'special relationship'
By Mike Martin


There are two continental Europes: the fictional one of the British liberal imagination, and the reality; both are indeed lovely places, but they are rather different to each other; and despite globalisation, the internet and all that business, the continent still remains very much isolated.
Zwarte Piets are actually the helpers of St Nicholas and are meant to be chimney sweeps. As usual, there is element in society set-out to stop the merriment and claim it is racist and blacking-up like Justin Trudeau. Each year the protests get more violent with death threats, bullets sent to mayors, etc. Quite a few end up doing jail time on both sides of the argument for and against Black Piet.

The Liberalism of the Dutch is not really what it is marketed as. The heightened individualism and self-centered of Dutch males is often mistaken for Liberal values. It's not, they just don't give a shit. Hence very relaxed approach to Moroccans and middle-aged Brits smoking cannabis, but you will never be invited to partake at someone's home. It's socially unacceptable for the Dutch to smoke cannabis and they consider people who do are scum. But likely not competing against them in the job market. Which is good.

The Bible Belt does exist and often very close to urban centers and in these villages you don't want to be seen dropping-off your empty bottles at the recycling on Sunday morning. When you move to these places, one of the first people to visit will be the local vicar to remind you to attend services. And they'll be as nosey and snobbish as any Brit.

Like much of Europe, and as I've stated before with examples, of the Nitrogen target farce, the political situation in the Netherlands is deteriorating fast. There's also a number of psychiatrists who have put forward the position that Mark Rutte is autistic and hence he laughs at inappropriate things and the coalition is making mad decisions against the interest of the Dutch people e.g. the targeting of livestock farmers as an undesirable class.

A lot of Dutch do look towards the UK for inspiration and are quite Anglophiles. Lots of streets are named after Churchill and the end of the war when the Brits were dropping in aid is remembered.

As with Brexit the position that only racist white undesirables would want out of the EU, is exposed as a lie. All the business owners and senior managers in the private sector that I know want out of the EU and despair at the direction the country is going in, particularly crime and politically. They want out too.
 
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