Coronavirus

Dropbear

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Everyone is laying off surge nursing staff now that the second wave has subsided. Add to that Methodist is about to sack a few hundred for not getting vaccinated. Good luck getting hired on anywhere!
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Indeed. And the fatality is compounded on account of their having to eat crow on the Wuhan lab leak "conspiracy theory," which they had previously ridiculed and censored.

And not only that, there were some on here a few weeks ago who were actively pushing a new narrative that the virus actually came from Spain. Anything but China, wot?

It was all well out by the middle of last year, all these MSM hacks doing flip flop flies is embarrassing:

 

güero

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You are kidding, right? Public health has been incentivising healthy choices for nearly a century though it has been a mainstay of community health practise since the 70s as a carrot parallel to the stick - children get turned away from school on day one unless they have an up to date immunizations record.

States give rewards for entering prenatal health programs, smoking cessation programs, weight loss, etc.

Employers and insurance companies almost all give extra leave in return for doing health screenings, achieving health goals or ceasing smoking.

Is it really effective? Is it really a deciding factor for many people in making health choices? I’m skeptical on that, but it’s hardly anything new or innovative.
I’m not aware we have anything like this here. I know you can get a few € each year from your health insurance to pay for yoga classes and stuff like that. I know you have to visit the dentist at least once a year to get full coverage. But that’s about it. Rather recently I think there was a hefty and brief discussion whether only kids with the standard vaccinations (measles etc) should be allowed to school, but that was ended quickly I think. Most likely it’s because everyone pays the same for health insurance (a bit oversimplified) and they don’t want to change that. Personally I think it’s good they don’t change that because of the consequences.
 

Dropbear

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America runs its healthcare system like the tax system: penalties for bad choices and rewards for healthy choices. All of which is predicated on the assumption that humans are rational creatures making informed decisions (one look at the bullshit conspiracy theories in this thread will disprove that).

I would slit my wrists if I got sidelined into the community health field. Making a significant impact on things like tobacco use and diet or immunization rates takes decades of seemingly futile work before you see any difference. The evidence suggests that public campaigns promoting health, shaming, rewards and punishments- none of that really works. The thing that makes a difference is one-to-one serious discussions between peers. My job is way more fun and in many ways easier - just bouncing from one emergency to another saving lives, getting the glory and then moving on.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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The evidence suggests that public campaigns promoting health, shaming, rewards and punishments- none of that really works.
Of course, when you start having to shame, hand out trinkets and punish grown adults for not buying into your health kick, be whatever it is, from not smoking to an inoculation that for some is not self-evident you will get the finger amongst a certain demographic of the population. Which judging by my purposely limited exposure to an extended social circle is not an insignificant percentage amongst a seemingly academic educated and successful middle class.
 
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Rambo

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Of course, when you start having to shame, hand out trinkets and punish grown adults for not buying into your health kick, be whatever it is, from not smoking to an inoculation that for some is not self-evident you will get the finger amongst a certain demographic of the population.
please forgive me but this is the most ridiculous conflation i think i've ever read. smoking isn't exactly avocado toast or the Mediterranean diet for god's sake. calling it a "health kick" is just ridiculous framing at the very least.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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please forgive me but this is the most ridiculous conflation i think i've ever read. smoking isn't exactly avocado toast or the Mediterranean diet for god's sake. calling it a "health kick" is just ridiculous framing at the very least.
Yes, smoking is seriously bad, but why smoking marijuana isn't?

I don't smoke cigarettes, I detest it, many of my grandparents families died or had their lives greatly reduced through smoking diseases, but I still want to reserve the right to smoke tobacco i.e. cigars once in a blue moon which I really enjoy, like once every 12-18 months over an evening.

In a world where cannabis is exalted, we need to reserve a place for tobacco, however bad that is.
 

Journeyman

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"We've always coerced people into doing what we say is in their best interest." Well, so what? That doesn't make it right, even if it is in their best interest. You actually have to make the argument to convince me, not coerce or blackmail me. You insult both my intelligence and character by thinking that bribery will compel me to do what you want.

Are you equating incentives with coercion?

If I pay you to do something, I'm not making you do it - it's entirely up to you as to whether you do it and take the reward on it.

I will get the jab if I am convinced I need to. So far, I haven't been convinced, and not because I am opposed to vaccines or this novel vaccine in particular. If I have to get it because I'm effectively forced to (in order to fly, for example), I will resent it.

So you're not opposed to vaccines in general, or to this vaccine in particular, but you haven't been convinced to take it?

If you're not opposed to it, why do you need to be convinced of it? Surely you already accept that it's OK if you're not opposed to it?

Yes, smoking is seriously bad, but why smoking marijuana isn't?

In a world where cannabis is exalted, we need to reserve a place for tobacco, however bad that is.

I wasn't aware that cannabis is "exalted"; however, in any case, it would be exceptionally rare (and probably very difficult to function in any meaningful way) if someone smoked 30-40 cannabis cigarettes in a day, unlike tobacco cigarettes. Therein, I think, lies the major difference - one of dosing.

Also, marijuana cigarettes are usually made solely from plant material (although some people do mix with rolling tobacco), unlike tobacco cigarettes which are made from a variety of substances, including tobacco which has been chemically-treated to continue burning. The particles in the inhaled smoke are clearly bad for you, but the stuff from the chemicals used to treat to tobacco are (as far as I'm aware) the real carcinogenic (although Thruth Thruth may be able to shed more light on this).

Furthermore, there are various delivery mechanisms for marijuana - capsules, liquid drops, eating it and so on. You don't have to roll it up and smoke it.
 

güero

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Rather recently I think there was a hefty and brief discussion whether only kids with the standard vaccinations (measles etc) should be allowed to school, but that was ended quickly I think.
Talked to a teacher yesterday, the exact outcome of this was: The standard vaccinations are now in fact mandatory by law, in order to visit kindergarden and school. But, since visiting school is also mandatory by law, children cannot be excluded from school. They can, however, be excluded from kindergarden/pre-school, so this law will most likely have a positive effect on vaccinations.
 

Fwiffo

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If he needs to be impeached for 16M infections and 460K deaths what about the leader of India? 27M infections and 325K deaths. Or USA for that matter. 34M infections 600K deaths.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Are you equating incentives with coercion?

If I pay you to do something, I'm not making you do it - it's entirely up to you as to whether you do it and take the reward on it.



So you're not opposed to vaccines in general, or to this vaccine in particular, but you haven't been convinced to take it?

If you're not opposed to it, why do you need to be convinced of it? Surely you already accept that it's OK if you're not opposed to it?



I wasn't aware that cannabis is "exalted"; however, in any case, it would be exceptionally rare (and probably very difficult to function in any meaningful way) if someone smoked 30-40 cannabis cigarettes in a day, unlike tobacco cigarettes. Therein, I think, lies the major difference - one of dosing.

Also, marijuana cigarettes are usually made solely from plant material (although some people do mix with rolling tobacco), unlike tobacco cigarettes which are made from a variety of substances, including tobacco which has been chemically-treated to continue burning. The particles in the inhaled smoke are clearly bad for you, but the stuff from the chemicals used to treat to tobacco are (as far as I'm aware) the real carcinogenic (although Thruth Thruth may be able to shed more light on this).

Furthermore, there are various delivery mechanisms for marijuana - capsules, liquid drops, eating it and so on. You don't have to roll it up and smoke it.
Marijuana cigarettes are generally made with tobacco.

If weed smokers are honest with you, they will admit it's double difficult to come off. Six months worth of night sweats and the like.
 

Rambo

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If he needs to be impeached for 16M infections and 460K deaths what about the leader of India? 27M infections and 325K deaths. Or USA for that matter. 34M infections 600K deaths.
you're finally thinking properly about this.
 

Journeyman

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Marijuana cigarettes are generally made with tobacco.

I've never smoked one, but I'll have to let my old university friends know that they were doing it wrong, as they never mixed in tobacco.

Mind you, at least one of them grew his own supply up in the bushland behind his house, so perhaps he had more to use and thus didn't have to adulterate it.

In any case, as I mentioned above, marijuana can now be consumed in a variety of ways, such as capsules, drops, eating it and so on. You don't have to smoke it, and even if you smoke it, you don't smoke it nearly as much as cigarettes.
 

Dropbear

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I've never smoked one, but I'll have to let my old university friends know that they were doing it wrong, as they never mixed in tobacco.

Mind you, at least one of them grew his own supply up in the bushland behind his house, so perhaps he had more to use and thus didn't have to adulterate it.

In any case, as I mentioned above, marijuana can now be consumed in a variety of ways, such as capsules, drops, eating it and so on. You don't have to smoke it, and even if you smoke it, you don't smoke it nearly as much as cigarettes.
No one mixes it with tobacco anymore. That might have been a thing in the 80s when it was illegal, harder to get and more people smoked tobacco. Everyone here is into the THC gummies you buy at the shops, though I think old timers will still vape the pure stuff to reduce carcinogens from smoking.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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If he needs to be impeached for 16M infections and 460K deaths what about the leader of India? 27M infections and 325K deaths. Or USA for that matter. 34M infections 600K deaths.
You have to look at in terms of overall population and infection rates.

The dreaded super-hyped Indian variety, when compared to the UK, is actually not that bad as a proportion to the overall population.

The problem with Brazil is that it's medical facilities are not good and not everyone has access to them.

You also still need to factor in on how deaths are recorded i.e. died of Covid vs died with Covid. Excess deaths in Sweden in 2020 = 1%, excess deaths in UK with real lockdowns = 10%.
No one mixes it with tobacco anymore. That might have been a thing in the 80s when it was illegal, harder to get and more people smoked tobacco. Everyone here is into the THC gummies you buy at the shops, though I think old timers will still vape the pure stuff to reduce carcinogens from smoking.
Interesting. One of the reasons I never took to it was the ciggie tobacco thing. I did have one interesting night when I was inhaling via a hooker pipe. That was the night of the ectoplasm.

All the times I've tried it, with the exception of the above and CBD for medical reasons, including cookies, it resulted it sudden ends to the evening. I certainly didn't get high.

Most people I know have given it up and all of them advised coming it off it was tough, like giving up the cigarettes. That's anecdotal evidence. But anecdotal again, those you see going into the coffee shops here, don't look very healthy.
 

Rambo

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How We’re Making Sure Covid Goes Chronic​

2021 May 30
by Ian Welsh
So, you may all recall, for much of the first 8 months or so of the pandemic people would natter on about how “viruses always become less deadly.” I never bought that.
You may have noticed that Covid variants are not less deadly, but more.
I was wondering about this the other day, and got my answer, courtesy of a specialist in mass murder.
In a vacuum, sure, viruses evolve towards a situation where they reproduce more, which tends toward lower lethatlity and more chronic infection. What they want, like most lifeforms, is more offspring. But this isn’t a vacuum, they’re evolving against public health measures
The first big breakout variant, the UK strain, was specifically adapted against masks. It was much more contagious, so minor mask lapses were more easily exploited. It spread more evenly, relying less on super-spreader events, and was more infectious to children, who mask poorly.
The next big breakout was the South African strain, which was part of the family of Covid strains that contain a mutation colorfully labeled “Eek” which evades antibodies, especially from natural infection or weaker vaccines, because that was/is becoming a bigger impediment than masks.
Now that MRNA vaccines are becoming the tool of choice, if the virus is allowed to continue to circulate in a partially vaccinated western population, it is only a matter of time before that becomes the biggest impediment to Covid’s success, and viruses are selected for resistance to it.
I feel a little silly not realizing this myself, since it’s natural selection 101.
What this means is that half-assing a measure that works only allows the virus to adapt to defeat it. If you don’t mask/shutdown/quarantine/track and trace properly. If vaccines aren’t quickly spread to virtually everyone, Covid adapts.
By leaving large chunks of the population effectively un-protected, we ensure Covid’s continued evolution into forms optimized against our half-assed measures. This means everyone has to be protected and quickly, and that includes people in other countries. Just protecting your own population is not enough, especially if you half-ass it and don’t insist on compliance.
This suggests a rather bleak future for us v.s. Covid: a chronic but still fairly deadly disease which also gives some people long-Covid: impairment long after the initial infection.
This will allow pharma to sell booster shots every year. Pfizer wants to sell them for $150 a shot. Small and medium businesses will continue to shut and large businesses will continue to expand their market share since they can use the internet and delivery to cut around retail distribution. Those retail businesses which pretty much have to remain will continue to put workers at risk, and the same will be true of production and distribution centers, where low paid workers must come together in large groups.
Countries which wish to opt-out of this future will have to go to hard borders with mandatory quarantine (jail sentence for skippers; track and trace and quick shutdowns against any break-outs. Although the main transmission vector is airborne, such countries will probably want both robots to offload freight, and then temporary isolation of shipped goods (especially anything by air.)
I do hope this is all wrong and that vaccines can get Covid under control by main force, but I fear my desire for a decent future is overcoming my analytical sense when I wish for such.
In some ways Covid has been a perfect test of humanity, which most of the “West” has failed abysmally and we’ll discuss that more in a future article.
 

fxh

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America runs its healthcare system like the tax system: penalties for bad choices and rewards for healthy choices. All of which is predicated on the assumption that humans are rational creatures making informed decisions (one look at the bullshit conspiracy theories in this thread will disprove that).

I would slit my wrists if I got sidelined into the community health field. Making a significant impact on things like tobacco use and diet or immunization rates takes decades of seemingly futile work before you see any difference. The evidence suggests that public campaigns promoting health, shaming, rewards and punishments- none of that really works. The thing that makes a difference is one-to-one serious discussions between peers. My job is way more fun and in many ways easier - just bouncing from one emergency to another saving lives, getting the glory and then moving on.
We’ve had good success with smoking here. Plain packaging, ugly pictures of cancer on packs, high taxes, no sales under 18, none on display in supermarkets.

immunisation, until now with COVID , was easy to get rates up.

diet is a whole another game
 

QuandoDio

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I think most people recognise smoking for what it is nowadays: and abhorrent habit.

I suppose poor diet would be looked at through the same lens in about a generation from now - if the bloody experts can decide what constitutes a 'good diet'.
 

Dropbear

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Pharmacies do a little bit but aren’t staffed or geared up to do more than a few locals. The only way is mass vax centres. Even GPs can only do a few a day unless it’s a huge clinic and well organised. Clinicians make bad managers or logistics experts. And that’s what this is.

Jeez most clinicians can’t even manage their own DNAs and wait lists.

This is the breakdown for the jurisdiction (about 10 million people) that I’m responsible for:

74F54A07-C89F-4CE3-9AB6-12384A7C3F89.jpeg
 

Rambo

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Twitter thread on all the lab leak theory paper authors being complete loons


I’m sure Pimpernel Smith Pimpernel Smith will find some way to rationalize this.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Twitter thread on all the lab leak theory paper authors being complete loons


I’m sure Pimpernel Smith Pimpernel Smith will find some way to rationalize this.
I don't get my news and facts from Twitter.

But seeing that you posted, I wouldn't trust anyone who describes themselves ''cranky funny blogger in DC recently unmasked by member of the RNC and Dick Cheney's former hatchetman. a lot of fun at parties. he/him'' and who links to their blog:

 

Rambo

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I don't get my news and facts from Twitter.

But seeing that you posted, I wouldn't trust anyone who describes themselves ''cranky funny blogger in DC recently unmasked by member of the RNC and Dick Cheney's former hatchetman. a lot of fun at parties. he/him'' and who links to their blog:

i suppose this goes for the wuhan lab leak theory as well then. great, glad you now don't believe that either because the people presenting it are fruitcakes.
But I do like select commentators on Youtube:

ah yes, the paragon of credentialism mark dice. where's the old dope with the glasses?
 

Fwiffo

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"The WHO said it prevented symptomatic disease in 51% of those vaccinated and prevented severe symptoms and hospitalisation in 100% of samples.

Some evidence and data gaps are still lacking though, according to WHO experts."

And against the Brazil variant....

"'We urge manufacturers to participate in the Covax facility, share their know-how and data and contribute to bringing the pandemic under control,' she said.

China says it has already produced 10 million doses of Covid vaccines for the Covax scheme and that it aims to hit 3 billion doses by the end of the year."

It was essentially approved because it was one of the few contributors into Covax and WHO's world inoculation goals - not necessarily because it's effective.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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i suppose this goes for the wuhan lab leak theory as well then. great, glad you now don't believe that either because the people presenting it are fruitcakes.

ah yes, the paragon of credentialism mark dice. where's the old dope with the glasses?
 

Otto

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I don't get my news and facts from Twitter.

But seeing that you posted, I wouldn't trust anyone who describes themselves ''cranky funny blogger in DC recently unmasked by member of the RNC and Dick Cheney's former hatchetman. a lot of fun at parties. he/him'' and who links to their blog:

:rofl: Why, this fellow doesn't seem biased at all! You also mean to say that you don't form your opinions and worldview on the basis of twatter threads? Yikes, sweaty.
 
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