rdiaz

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My biased view is that I don't really care whether Catalans go independent or not. But I don't think doing so unilaterally is going to be good for them. And it's sad to see how Catalonia, one of the most prosperous regions of Spain, is going down the toilet because of what seems to be a minority of independentists (I don't think the CUP are really independentists, they're just republicans and independence is a way of achieving a republic).

That's how I see it, but of course I'm probably missing a lot since I don't live in Catalonia. I hate how the media is manipulating facts everywhere on either side. Have you seen that "Help Catalonia" video? It makes me mad. Makes it look like they're being subjugated by cruel dictators or something.
 

aristoi bcn

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The Government of Catalonia (an autonomous region of Spain) has decided to somehow declare the independence of the region because half of the regional Parliament has decided so (which was voted by less of the 50% of Catalonian residents due to the electoral regulation). This is of course illegal according to the Spanish Constitution and against the resolutions of the Supreme Court.

Why do they think are legitimate to do so?

This is the tough part of the issue.

Catalonian autonomy (the power to legislate and some other powers dating back from the Middle Ages) was abolished in 1716 by the Bourbouns and reinstated in 1980, with an attempt in 1934 during the II Republic.

Catalan language was denigrated as from the time of the Bourbons and abolished in the administrative use.

With the reinstitution of the Catalonian autonomy in 1980 (after 250 years without regional government) the election were won by the nationalist party, who was ruling during 30 years. In the meantime, most legislative and administrative powers have been transferred into the regions, Catalonia, included. During 8 years the socialist party was ruling with the Catalonian republicans but situation was more or less the same. Now, a coalition of nationalist/pro-independence/anarchist is ruling. Progressively, the nationalist has been excluding all Spanish aspects within Catalonia taking advantage that Catalonia has always been richer than other regions. In the beginning this was less obvious, but education and public media are now fully pro-independence.

At this point, the Regional Government alleged the negative of the Spanish Government to give more legislative powers (according to the Spanish Government, this is not possible within the current Constitution) in order to convoque a Referendum (declared before it happened illegal by the Supreme Court) to give the people of Catalonia the right to decide, which according to the Constitution is a right of all citizens of Spain, not only the residents of a region.

Referendum was voted by 2 million residents (from 7 currently living in Catalonia) and 90% voted for independence.

The Regional Government says the Referendum legitimates the right to declare the independence.

Other aspects of the issue involve the fight for the power of ruling (Madrid vs Barcelona), corruption of both the ruling parties in Catalonia and Spain, the alleged lack of investment in Catalonia by the Spanish Government, the right of historical regions to declare themselves nations because the had somewhat similar autonomy in the Middle Ages, the right to vote anything people want even if this is contrary to the Constitution, etc.

btw, I'm born in Catalonia as my parents are.

Questions are welcome.
 
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aristoi bcn

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My biased view is that I don't really care whether Catalans go independent or not. But I don't think doing so unilaterally is going to be good for them. And it's sad to see how Catalonia, one of the most prosperous regions of Spain, is going down the toilet because of what seems to be a minority of independentists (I don't think the CUP are really independentists, they're just republicans and independence is a way of achieving a republic).

That's how I see it, but of course I'm probably missing a lot since I don't live in Catalonia. I hate how the media is manipulating facts everywhere on either side. Have you seen that "Help Catalonia" video? It makes me mad. Makes it look like they're being subjugated by cruel dictators or something.
Technically the CUP are anarchists, so they define themselves. The other party in the Catalonian Government, ERC, are republicans.
 

rdiaz

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Technically the CUP are anarchists, so they define themselves. The other party in the Catalonian Government, ERC, are republicans.
You're right. I think the CUP would be happy enough with a Republic, though. Be it Catalonia or Spain as a whole. PDeCAT is more or less in line with the PP after all, and the CUP is supporting them.
 

QuandoDio

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You'd have to go back to the 17th century when the Bourbon army seized the province for Spain and it all went downhill from there as alluded to by aristoi bcn aristoi bcn

Another civil war began again in 1936 when Real Madrid benefactor and all round bad hombre Franco crushed the Catalonians, outlawing their language, culture, subjugating them as downstairs folk.

And that resentment has been stewing ever since.

Rajoy is an idiot btw with his belligerence. I think this is exactly the response the Catalan gov't was hoping for. Spain's ruling PP party has acted not with the national interest in mind, but their own, as their heavy-handedness with the Catalonians may well be a vote winner for them on a country level.

Bear in mind that the Catalan separatist movements had been carrying out unofficial polls on the streets for years.

It's only since recently though -some 5 years or so- that the actual Catalan government also got involved with the drive for independence.

Even though the Catalonia comedy is in international news now, it has been in the local news on a daily basis in Spain for a while now.

PS

I am neither Catalonian nor Spanish but i visit several times a year to partly escape the gloomy British winter.
 
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Lumpen

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You'd have to go back to the 17th century when the Bourbon army seized the province for Spain and it all went downhill from there as alluded to by aristoi bcn aristoi bcn

Another civil war began again in 1936 when Real Madrid benefactor and all round bad hombre Franco crushed the Catalonians, outlawing their language, culture, subjugating them as downstairs folk.

And that resentment has been stewing ever since.

Rajoy is an idiot btw with his belligerence. I think this is exactly the response the Catalan gov't was hoping for. Spain's ruling PP party has acted not with the national interest in mind, but their own, as their heavy-handedness with the Catalonians may well be a vote winner for them on a country level.

Bear in mind that the Catalan separatist movements had been carrying out unofficial polls on the streets for years.

It's only since recently though -some 5 years or so- that the actual Catalan government also got involved with the drive for independence.

Even though the Catalonia comedy is in international news now, it has been in the local news on a daily basis in Spain for a while now.

PS

I am neither Catalonian nor Spanish but i visit several times a year to partly escape the gloomy British winter.

Catalonia belongs to the Neapolitan Crown as well as Morroco and Alger.

Gianfranco Fini will get it back for Lombardia and Veneto provinces as a fetish.

He is the real King of Italy and the MSI will be the only party allowed and will return my social privileges as aristocrat now lumpen.
 

robertito

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Like Aristoi bcn I will give you my answer as a lawyer (well somebody that read law) and that worked in Catalonia for nearly 10 anyos = Send the tanks down the Diagonal Avenue.

Catalonians have a weak memory and they forgot how well they lived under Franco, Here you can see the FC Barcelona in an ad for deodorant during Franco times:

h
 

robertito

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Catalonia belongs to the Neapolitan Crown as well as Morroco and Alger.

Gianfranco Fini will get it back for Lombardia and Veneto provinces as a fetish.

He is the real King of Italy and the MSI will be the only party allowed and will return my social privileges as aristocrat now lumpen.
This, As soon as Catalonia declares the independence from Spain, the next step will be Naples, that was part of Aragon-Catalonia crown for nearly 300 years.
You will see what is fun 1) No more espressos with the tailor while browsing fabrics, only cafe amb llet 2) You can only purchase fabrics manufactured in Sabadell by Gorina, the rest of the cloth would have 50% tax as in the old times in Spain, 3) Only catalan language spoken, not even napoletano, that as everybody is a dialect from Argentino.
 

robertito

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on a more serious note the Situation is endemic and have not solution in the sort mid term http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/24/59ef400fe5fdea562c8b45eb.html

The Catalan President is in dire straits, he can't call on Regional Elections without getting in big trouble with his contra natura allies the CUP (anarchists) that want the Republic to be declared by all means. Even if calls elections he is facing Article 155 to be applied and the Control of the Autonomy taken over by the Spanish Government.

The only issue here is the Constitutional bloc in Spain is not united (socialists don't know where to stand and don't want the 155 to be used if the President declare Elections and Rajoy (the barnacle in Spanish) may not apply the 155 if doesn't have the full support.

The only reason why this coup d'etat failed is because Justice is not fully transferred to the Catalan Autonomy, this and that money is coward and that all large companies are running away from Catalunha as they know that independence would be not protection for their investments.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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The heavy handed stomping on women and pulling grandmothers hair hasn't won the Spanish government any fans abroad. Nor too the EU when the spoke about the moderate response. That was a bad move.

The clever move would have been to let them have their non-binding and illegal referendum and then said "Yes, but so what?!'' And carried on as normal.
 

QuandoDio

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The heavy handed stomping on women and pulling grandmothers hair hasn't won the Spanish government any fans abroad. Nor too the EU when the spoke about the moderate response. That was a bad move.

The clever move would have been to let them have their non-binding and illegal referendum and then said "Yes, but so what?!'' And carried on as normal.
Yep this is where Rajoy had an EPIC fail.

One of the problems with this whole Catalan debate as seen from outside Catalonia is that the Spanish nationalists have successfully sold the idea that being in favour of self-determination is synonymous with being independentist. It isn't.

Self-determination should be championed. Independence is another matter entirely.

In this case, the Spaniards could learn a bit from the Brits on this.
 

robertito

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The heavy handed stomping on women and pulling grandmothers hair hasn't won the Spanish government any fans abroad. Nor too the EU when the spoke about the moderate response. That was a bad move.

The clever move would have been to let them have their non-binding and illegal referendum and then said "Yes, but so what?!'' And carried on as normal.
Well, the Catalan propaganda apparatchik is quite strong ... and the heavy handed stomping wasnt so heavy, the main issue is that the information has not been verified by the press as The Guardian already acknowledged https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...injuries-fact-checking?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Catalonian government speaks of nearly +1,000 injured people that way but guess what, nobody is able to verify that info because the healthcare services are transferred to the Catalan Autonomy. ......

they had another 'referendum' in 2009 they can't have one every 4 years.
 

robertito

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Yep this is where Rajoy had an EPIC fail.

One of the problems with this whole Catalan debate as seen from outside Catalonia is that the Spanish nationalists have successfully sold the idea that being in favour of self-determination is synonymous with being independentist. It isn't.

Self-determination should be championed. Independence is another matter entirely.

In this case, the Spaniards could learn a bit from the Brits on this.
The self determination exists in the Spanish Constitution but it has to be decided among all Spaniards not only Catalan. The funny thing is that iright you if ask a regular Spanish from Madrid if they would vote for the indepence of Catalonia they would say yes. That would mean putting them in black hole for the next 50 years and Barcelona playing next year against Salou FC
 

QuandoDio

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The self determination exists in the Spanish Constitution but it has to be decided among all Spaniards not only Catalan. The funny thing is that iright you if ask a regular Spanish from Madrid if they would vote for the indepence of Catalonia they would say yes. That would mean putting them in black hole for the next 50 years and Barcelona playing next year against Salou FC
Nah, Barca would be welcome in the PL. Brits already own Gibraltar, why won't Messi and cowant to hack it on a wet and windy tuesday night in Stoke?;)
 

gambit50

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My biased view is that I don't really care whether Catalans go independent or not. But I don't think doing so unilaterally is going to be good for them. And it's sad to see how Catalonia, one of the most prosperous regions of Spain, is going down the toilet because of what seems to be a minority of independentists (I don't think the CUP are really independentists, they're just republicans and independence is a way of achieving a republic).

That's how I see it, but of course I'm probably missing a lot since I don't live in Catalonia. I hate how the media is manipulating facts everywhere on either side. Have you seen that "Help Catalonia" video? It makes me mad. Makes it look like they're being subjugated by cruel dictators or something.
The Government of Catalonia (an autonomous region of Spain) has decided to somehow declare the independence of the region because half of the regional Parliament has decided so (which was voted by less of the 50% of Catalonian residents due to the electoral regulation). This is of course illegal according to the Spanish Constitution and against the resolutions of the Supreme Court.

Why do they think are legitimate to do so?

This is the tough part of the issue.

Catalonian autonomy (the power to legislate and some other powers dating back from the Middle Ages) was abolished in 1716 by the Bourbouns and reinstated in 1980, with an attempt in 1934 during the II Republic.

Catalan language was denigrated as from the time of the Bourbons and abolished in the administrative use.

With the reinstitution of the Catalonian autonomy in 1980 (after 250 years without regional government) the election were won by the nationalist party, who was ruling during 30 years. In the meantime, most legislative and administrative powers have been transferred into the regions, Catalonia, included. During 8 years the socialist party was ruling with the Catalonian republicans but situation was more or less the same. Now, a coalition of nationalist/pro-independence/anarchist is ruling. Progressively, the nationalist has been excluding all Spanish aspects within Catalonia taking advantage that Catalonia has always been richer than other regions. In the beginning this was less obvious, but education and public media are now fully pro-independence.

At this point, the Regional Government alleged the negative of the Spanish Government to give more legislative powers (according to the Spanish Government, this is not possible within the current Constitution) in order to convoque a Referendum (declared before it happened illegal by the Supreme Court) to give the people of Catalonia the right to decide, which according to the Constitution is a right of all citizens of Spain, not only the residents of a region.

Referendum was voted by 2 million residents (from 7 currently living in Catalonia) and 90% voted for independence.

The Regional Government says the Referendum legitimates the right to declare the independence.

Other aspects of the issue involve the fight for the power of ruling (Madrid vs Barcelona), corruption of both the ruling parties in Catalonia and Spain, the alleged lack of investment in Catalonia by the Spanish Government, the right of historical regions to declare themselves nations because the had somewhat similar autonomy in the Middle Ages, the right to vote anything people want even if this is contrary to the Constitution, etc.

btw, I'm born in Catalonia as my parents are.

Questions are welcome.
Catalonia belongs to the Neapolitan Crown as well as Morroco and Alger.

Gianfranco Fini will get it back for Lombardia and Veneto provinces as a fetish.

He is the real King of Italy and the MSI will be the only party allowed and will return my social privileges as aristocrat now lumpen.
on a more serious note the Situation is endemic and have not solution in the sort mid term http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/24/59ef400fe5fdea562c8b45eb.html

The Catalan President is in dire straits, he can't call on Regional Elections without getting in big trouble with his contra natura allies the CUP (anarchists) that want the Republic to be declared by all means. Even if calls elections he is facing Article 155 to be applied and the Control of the Autonomy taken over by the Spanish Government.

The only issue here is the Constitutional bloc in Spain is not united (socialists don't know where to stand and don't want the 155 to be used if the President declare Elections and Rajoy (the barnacle in Spanish) may not apply the 155 if doesn't have the full support.

The only reason why this coup d'etat failed is because Justice is not fully transferred to the Catalan Autonomy, this and that money is coward and that all large companies are running away from Catalunha as they know that independence would be not protection for their investments.
upload_2017-10-25_12-16-43.jpeg
 

rdiaz

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Example of induced psychosis:

This psychotic and psychopath Orazio Luciano looklike is teacher of kids and has been mayor of a Catalonian town with 3 different political parties as the socialist, nationalist and other, all those totally contrary in ideology.
This is why I believe the Government should not have tried to stop the fake referendum. Independentists wanted evidence of oppression and state violence, and with those provocations they got it.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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A very strange independence movement: neo-liberal, pro-open borders, pro-migration, globalista and desirous to remain in the EU. And yet, they want to give their nearest neighbour and business partner the finger.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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This is all just a useless prelude to the inevitable re-establishment of Al Andalus.
The Catalans encouraged North African immigration as they saw this new demographic had no allegiance to Spain and would help them in their quest for independence, but within the gilded cage of the EU. Like that is real independence.

Actually, the whole thing is a middle finger to Spain, at best a vindictive joke.

Madrid's response was what we would expect from the current European establishment, over the top in all the wrong places.

If, Catalan manages to go it alone and can somehow kick the Spanish out - as they see them - their future is going to be quite shocking. They will be turned into a third world boil and shit hole.

Whilst I am all for challenges to the current EU, unlike Brexit, this move is one of nationalism in all its worse forms. It is not a moral move.
 

Lumpen

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The Catalans encouraged North African immigration as they saw this new demographic had no allegiance to Spain and would help them in their quest for independence, but within the gilded cage of the EU. Like that is real independence.

Actually, the whole thing is a middle finger to Spain, at best a vindictive joke.

Madrid's response was what we would expect from the current European establishment, over the top in all the wrong places.

If, Catalan manages to go it alone and can somehow kick the Spanish out - as they see them - their future is going to be quite shocking. They will be turned into a third world boil and shit hole.

Whilst I am all for challenges to the current EU, unlike Brexit, this move is one of nationalism in all its worse forms. It is not a moral move.

They already are: a third world boil and shit hole.
 

fxh

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Can anyone point me to a sensible Beginners Guide to all this Catalan/Spain stuff? - I haven't seen any analysis of how the economics stand up and what resources Catalan has etc.
 
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