On the Establishment of DressedWell-Groupthink

Zé Ferreira

Zé Ferreira

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In the past, I've found fascinating the somewhat automatic adoption of general board-standards by newcomers in attempts to raise their fashion/#menswear awareness. Certainly, much of this is justified by the experience of older members and countless dollars spent on previously finetuning personas and fits.

But acknowledging that many do not enter Menswear at the same economic ability as others, I am eager to see how WDWV menswear standards will develop in comparison to other previously established sites. Will the same "prejudices" transfer over - or are we attempting to truly reevaluate where we are in our lives in conjunction with where menswear currently resides and where it's going?

It'd be easy to lay out in one post "Approved" brands:

Vass, Lobb, G+G, Carmina, Alden (if you're not wary of rather shoddy QC), Allen Edmonds.

Momotaro, Samurai, APC, Iron Heart, Pure Blue Japan, LVC.

Isaia, Brioni, RLPL+BL, Zegna, Brooks Bros, etc.

There would likely be little, if any dissent in throwing out such brand names and shutting up shop.

But what hopes to be accomplished here? Is "Clothes" instead to be a collection of tumblrs? Various WAYWT threads, meant to pop in, satisfy your menswear jollies for the day, and depart? Heaven forbid, a quick and vicious deevolution into multiple "where2kop?/?" threads? Or is it simply an extension of DT, while dealing with clothes? Writing merely to be read?

How one chooses to present themselves to the world matters. It influences how others view you, and to a degree, how you view yourself. I would hope the formation of this new e-space can represent an area to come, learn, and practice putting your best self forward; that questions will not be frowned upon, but conversely that good-faith effort will be made to seek out answers.

Having not even been a member of SF during the oft-reminisced "golden age," I am intrigued to see how this forum develops.

/endramble
 
White shirts with odd jackets...I like 'em. If wearing a smoother less casual odd jacket or blazer, I see nothing wrong with most white shirts. With rougher jacket fabrics (to a point), a rough white oxford would probably work (and I have white oxford non-button down for this purpose).

I went through about a month a few months back where I wouldn't wear a white shirt of any kind with an odd jacket, as influenced by SF group think. There are probably more combinations that would look good with light blue than with white, but sacrificing the option entirely was sort of foolish of me.
 
What are current examples of SF Groupthink? A lot might just be Foo-think (which doesn't necessarily make it bad-think).

White linen pocketsquares are too formal to be worn with most outfits (X)
White linen pocketsquares shouldn't be worn with white shirts (/)
Blue shirts are almost always better than white shirts (X)
Pocketsquare and tie should complement not match (O)
Avoid patterns of the same scale (O)
Monkstraps are too informal to go with suits (/)
There are hard rules to dressing well (/)

(X = disagree; O = agree; / = on the fence)


I am sure their are dozens more that I'm unfamiliar with or I don't even think about.
 
I'd agree generally that for Northern European stock blue in some shade is almost always better than white.

Monkstraps aren't too informal for suits per se, but perhaps not for every occasion in which a suit is appropriate.
 
I am quite literally too new at this to have an opinion. I will tell you that there's some value in groupthink to the noob.

Six months ago I was 99% of office guys. I thought black slacks, white shirt and tie with no jacket, and square-toed Kenneth Coles were haute couture.

Since finding SF, I've graduated to charcoal flannel trousers and tailored blue point-collar shirts with the odd jacket and no tie. I gave all my square-toed shoes and black slacks to Goodwill. Which probably made some 25-year-old with a barbed wire tattoo and his first actual job REALLY happy.

What's weird is that it's not a major shift when you really look at it -- black slacks to charcoal; baggy white shirts to fitted blue; lose the tie, add a jacket; switch to AE's -- but suddenly I look more responsible, squared-away, and authoritative. I may just rock this for the rest of my working days and keep collecting odd jackets and shoes.

But that's as far as my fashion expertise goes right now. Open to suggestions and vulnerable to groupthink . . . old Army guy, here, after all . . .
 
And at least groupthink keeps us away from this:

tumblr_ml0t6d9UD51s45rvdo1_400.webp
 
I don't own either black slacks nor a black suit.

However, my first suit, back in 2006, was black and from Mens Warehouse. I wore a black suit (though not that one) to work at least a few times a month until mid 2010.

The word "groupthink" was coined in reference to Orwell, and the dangers of groupthink are probably best explained in terms of Orwell's take on political orthodoxy. He fear that people would be so committed to the set of beliefs held by an affiliation that they would allow their own own beliefs be subsumed by those of the organization, stymieing ideological progress. Now should they agree with these beliefs independently of the organization, this isn't a problem. However, should their beliefs either be actively or passively (passive should one stay quiet rather than dissent) oppressed/repressed, then the individual, organization, and the community risk intellectual stagnation or worse.

The proponent of a value, nor his history nor his organization, should ever serve as a proxy for the reasoning behind his value.

One of the reasons I read Foo's posts is that, amidst a lot of deflection and vitriol, he generally does provide the reason for what he believes.
 
Chorn said:
Now should they agree with these beliefs independently of the organization, this isn't a problem.
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that no belief outside "the standard" was permitted. The protagonist fears having thought outside of what The Party describes, knowing they could pick him up for it.

Needless to say, though, I haven't read 1984 since high school.
 
My post wasn't referring to 1984, though the psychologist (I think it was a psychologist) was referencing it when he coined groupthink. I was referring to Orwell's essays (of which there were many and many of which were superior to his books...he was quite far from being a good novelist for the same reasons he was a brilliant essayist).

Off the top of my head, the two essays which most clearly explain Orwell's take on ideological orthodoxy would be Writers and Leviathan and The Prevention of Literature.
In regards to clothing, I was pointing out the danger of simply deferring to others without understanding their reasoning or without making them explain their reasoning. This is made trickier (and more fun) because clothes should be considered as a combination of aesthetics, tradition, and appropriateness.
 
Well, now that this has risen from the dead, anyone have an idea where the SF Neopolitan GroupThink originated?
 
Chorn said:
Naples
Click to expand...

Well thanks for clearing that up. So it was kind of a Chariot of the Gods thing; the Neopolitans descended upon SF, transferred and transformed the way iGents thought and then moved once they were sure that soft shoulders were inculcated and second nature?
 
Surely Sartodinapoli can expound on the excellence of Naples!
I just figured that it was a one-upmanship over "Made in Italy" to be more specific, more knowing, more expensive.
Or it had something to do with Foo's vacation plans.

Also, hey Rambo, there's a WDWV reference in the first post, which will surely confuse many. There is also a WDWV (now two) reference in this post.
 
As I mentioned in another thread, I think iGents latched onto soft shoulders because they come across as more casual than structure, better conveying the sense that the wearer doesn't need to be wearing a coat and tie (even if he does) and is instead wearing it by choice.
 
And it is a tricky thing that is not done readily or cheaply in the RTW world.
I must add that this is one of those runaway selection things where the oneupsmanship goes past prime and leads to diminishing returns leading to a state worse than the beginning. Specifically, all these shoulders that seem to slope down from the neck at a 45 degree angle. This makes one look like a disfigured shoulderless wierdo devoid of masculinity. But many seem to spend great sums and be very happy with this look.
 
Do people actually know what Neapolitan tailoring is in the US? They're talking about it in that thread as if it's all the rage, like, walking down the street, someone will come up to you and say "nice spalla camicia."

I can't help but feel that 99% of the American suit wearing public has no idea what Neapolitan tailoring is or looks like. So while it's certainly a fad within the internet style community (and is it really? or is it just the most vocal and visible members, both of forums and blogs/tumblrs make it seem this way), I'm not sure that it is an America-wide fad, as some in those thread seem to speak of it.

But I don't know. Maybe in New York?
 
Chorn said:
Do people actually know what Neapolitan tailoring is in the US? They're talking about it in that thread as if it's all the rage, like, walking down the street, someone will come up to you and say "nice spalla camicia."

I can't help but feel that 99% of the American suit wearing public has no idea what Neapolitan tailoring is or looks like. So while it's certainly a fad within the internet style community (and is it really? or is it just the most vocal and visible members, both of forums and blogs/tumblrs make it seem this way), I'm not sure that it is an America-wide fad, as some in those thread seem to speak of it.

But I don't know. Maybe in New York?
Click to expand...

I agree that calling it a rage is probably overblown if one considers the entire suit buying population of North America. like you say, the chance of someone complimenting you on your Spalla Camisia is low.
Most likely they will ask what is wrong with you suit.

Most cannot afford bespoke nor the RTW from Naples (Isaia, Kiton etc.)

They might be aware of an "Italian" style because it is what is foisted on them when they go to a bricks and mortar shop and say "um, I need a suit for....." Lower tier, no name brands all have their "Italian model" which is a slimmer cut with softer shoulders than what has been the suit-norm for eons.

But we sometimes think the forums are representative of the world at large instead of small congregations of misfits who would reach out and rub the fabric of stranger's suit without thinking.
 
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