On why we need rules (CM vs SWD)

[Chorn]

As there are more rules which apply to CM than to SWD, CM makes for better forum material. All the same dictates which govern SWD do so to CM; added to this are those rules which derive from tradition.

Games aren't any fun without rules. To be governed entirely by aesthetics presents a canvas too broad for most to understand anything more than superficially. The existence of rules also allows for greater discussion and less subjectivity.

Pure objectivity isn't a good thing, but pure subjectivity can render most discussions moot.

I find CM more satisfaying that SWD. Yes, I think a lot of the SWD looks are a little silly, but I also respect that some of the more complex looks (those which are interesting, well put together, but not gaudy) require a great deal of thought to wear well.

Anyway, that's why I prefer CM to SWD.

Also, does anyone think that there should be a category in between? The stuff which inhabits SF's MC Casual thread really doesn't belong in either SWD or CM.

 

[Zé Ferreira]

I'm firmly planted in the "bland" MC-Casual camp. But I like it. I find full-blown MC generally gaudy and too detail oriented (as well as generally unattainable for my current station in life - although I do realize it has its time and place and will be of great use in my future), and I find the throws of SW+D to just be strange, for lack of a better word.

 

[Dropbear]

I like the idea if something in-between the two. Business casual and weekend wear for grown-ups who still wear jeans but are not into the extremes of SWD 'fashion forward'.

 

[Zé Ferreira]

I like the idea if something in-between the two. Business casual and weekend wear for grown-ups who still wear jeans but are not into the extremes of SWD 'fashion forward'.

MC casual is what suits my lifestyle best at the moment, would love to have a similar thread here. I don't 'get' most of the SWD stuff tbh (think ninja goth).

I agree w/ both of you wholeheartedly.

 

[Grand Potentate]

I'd need a tub of lard and a jaws of life.

 

[Chorn]

I think I like...or I would like if I were willing to sift through everything else....the non fashion forward side of SW&D. I think the fashion forward bit is interesting as well, just nothing relevant to me.

 

[Pauly Chase]

What would you guys consider fashion forward? Designer/brand wise.

 

[Chorn]

What would you guys consider fashion forward? Designer/brand wise.

90% of the SF's WAYWT thread. I'm not sure what the policy is on cross posting someone else's fits are, so I'll just provide links to some examples:
http://www.styleforum.net/t/164384/the-waywt-discussion-thread/92505#post_6282946
http://www.styleforum.net/t/164384/the-waywt-discussion-thread/92490#post_6282654
http://www.styleforum.net/t/164384/the-waywt-discussion-thread/92475#post_6282252
http://www.styleforum.net/t/164384/the-waywt-discussion-thread/92460#post_6281885
http://www.styleforum.net/t/164384/the-waywt-discussion-thread/92340#post_6279815

Those are the sort of looks that seem to get a lot of love around there. I appreciate that there is often a lot of thought that goes into them and that the execution is often skillful, but those are the kinds of outfits that you look back on a decade later and think "what the hell was I wearing?"

 

[Pauly Chase]

90% of the SF's WAYWT thread. I'm not sure what the policy is on cross posting someone else's fits are, so I'll just provide links to some examples:

Spoiler

http://www.styleforum.net/t/164384/the-waywt-discussion-thread/92505#post_6282946

http://www.styleforum.net/t/164384/the-waywt-discussion-thread/92490#post_6282654

http://www.styleforum.net/t/164384/the-waywt-discussion-thread/92475#post_6282252

http://www.styleforum.net/t/164384/the-waywt-discussion-thread/92460#post_6281885

http://www.styleforum.net/t/164384/the-waywt-discussion-thread/92340#post_6279815

Those are the sort of looks that seem to get a lot of love around there. I appreciate that there is often a lot of thought that goes into them and that the execution is often skillful, but those are the kinds of outfits that you look back on a decade later and think "what the hell was I wearing?"

So pretty much all SZ.

I will have to gather my thoughts a bit before I tackle this.

But let me ask you a question, how do you feel about designers such as TF, YSL (not sure who is designing men's side, I know Slimane is on the women's side), and maybe Lanvin? Would you have the thought approach toward them?

 

[Chorn]

SZ?

SW&D seems to require a more firm grasp of color and shape to execute well. This is still necessary for CM, but much of the tradition involved in CM has developed in part in response to these factors. Dressing to this tradition requires a knowledge of more rules, how to express oneself within them, and where it is possible to bend them, but it also spares the wearer some risk as it restricts him. To dress well, SW&D requires a lot more theory than CM does. Of course, the definition of "dress well" becomes increasingly subjective as more emphasis is put on theory rather than tradition. Some subjectivity is good, but too much takes all the fun out of it (just as ultra conservative business dress, having pushed out most of the subjectivity, isn't much fun).

Outside of ties, I don't really think too much about designers. If I like something, I like something (really this is true for ties as well; I've just noticed a greater consistency in my tastes there). It seems like all three you listed cover a wide range of clothing. Is there a certain aspect/style you were referring to?

 

[Pauly Chase]

In the tradition sense of dressing, the pictures above can seem extreme which I understand might not appeal to everyone's palate. It took me awhile to understand the aesthetic values in such designs and the usage of only non-colors, even now, I am unsure if I totally get it. Designers such as Rick, Ann, Damir, and others can be equate to abstract artists whose works only attract a select group of people. However I think their innovative designs do impact the fashion trend more than what most people realize, though the impact is subjective. Thom Browne and Jil Sander are perfect examples of such influences on men's side, and Mcqueen on women's side. Sometimes people add too much cultural values, history, etc to fashion which irritates me, it's just clothes after all.

In my opinion, Nick Wooster is somewhat of a perfect blend of MC and SW&D, though many people find his taste offensive. In the end, it's the understanding of own's physique and self-confidence that will deliver a "perfect" fit.

 

[Chorn]

I get fashion is art. I even enjoy fashion as art. But I think there is, and should be, a difference between what is seen on the runway and photo shoots and what we see on the street, especially so with some of the more extreme examples of abstract clothing (and these extreme examples, at least the ones that also embrace the principle of simplicity, are often the most interesting to me). As far as their impact, I'd say it is pretty minimal on the CM side of things. Some of the more fashion forward [CM associated] designers in their more fashion forward lines maybe, but I don't imagine CM forum favorites like Steed and Mariano Rubinacci being overly effected by what Yohji Yamamoto walks out every season.

As far as "too much cultural values, history, etc": I think we both agree that style and/or fashion is a combination of tradition and aesthetics (with practicality somewhere in there, mostly forgotten), and that tradition and aesthetics do not represent a zero sum game of our priorities; tradition takes aesthetics into account. By worrying X amount about tradition we don't necessarily place -X influence on aesthetics. But for those of us who care enough about clothes to post on a forum about them, read about them, and spend stupid amounts of money on them, it clearly isn't "just clothes after all." It's a hobby.

Naked Lunch and Great Gatsby are both brilliant, and brilliant in different ways. I just wouldn't want to wear Naked Lunch.


On a side note, I was watching American Gigolo last night for the first time. Richard Gere looked pretty terrible (clothing wise, obviously). His suits veered too far away from the tradition behind them, and thus they looked good then but look terrible now. A lot of the more fashion forward looks from that period probably aged even more poorly, but they were not clear derivatives of any longstanding sartorial tradition, and so while they might look more ridiculous to us now, they should also be judged less harshly.

Some might say we shouldn't judge at all (which is fair enough), but where's the fun in that?

 

[Pauly Chase]

I think designers like Yohji has have more impact on women haute coutour wear than what people normally consider traditional men's wear. I agree many of the runway pieces are displayed for pure art sense than anything wearable. I would not wear anything like Pugh, though I do enjoy his work.

I agree with you that most of us enjoy clothes as a hobby, otherwise we would just shop at Walmart or JC Penny. I just wanted to clarify that when people infuse too much culture/historical background/art/, then it starts sounding like bulls**t (excuse my language, not sure how to explain it).

I love judging, because we have to look at what others wear.

 

[Pauly Chase]

By the way, I love MC, espcially the shoes.

 

[Grand Potentate]

Pauly Chase I DO NOT understand that whole Yohji aesthetic.

 

[Pauly Chase]

I am not a Yohji expert, but the intergration of Asian aethestic with western influenced design is what attracts me to him. Especially mandarin collared jackets, white button ups, and pants. The full volume allows the wearer to beautifully and freely move in space In addition the details on his pieces are meticulous, well-executed, and not contrived. The fabrics used in the few pieces that I own are extremely well constructed. For example, the black sweat pants that I own are half lined with rayon to the knee, the waist has belt loops, and have ykk zippers. I understand it's not everyone's cup of tea, but the more I look at his run way shows, the more I love his clothes.

 

[Grand Potentate]

Its just that the majority of people who wear this stuff look like absolute shit. Take Parker for instance - the guy's got a great sense of style, but he puts on these suits and pants that all look like they're 3 sizes too big, and I'm just left to wonder 'what went wrong there???'

 

[Pauly Chase]

The full volume (as opposed to wearing clothes 3 sizes too big) is an aspect many people have hard time grasp. I caught a lot of flak when I posted a picture of myself wearing "loose" clothing. Earlier Damir is an other example of full volume. Not a lot of people can pull it off. But I think Shah and a few others wear Yohji pretty well.

 

[Chorn]

Shah looks great. But I don't think his fits will pass the old photo test. Then again, I don't think he wants them to.

 

[Grand Potentate]

hmmm... maybe I'm the wrong person to judge, but I've met up with Parker twice and he seemed to be put very well together irl.

he does. when he's not wearing all that Yojhi crap. he's probably one of the sharpest dressers on the forum.

 

[Zé Ferreira]

What's the middle ground there? Doesn't seem like one can jump from well-tailored MC Casual right into "flowing East Asia" overnight. What are the steps in between?

 

[Pauly Chase]

I think Jil Sander or Ann D. is the perfect middle ground. Subdued tailored pieces that can be worn in an everyday setting. East Asian labels such as Forme de Expression and the Viridi Anne are another examples that can be worn w/o looking too ridiculous.