Pattern direction, warp, weft, etc.

Russell Street

Russell Street

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Sartodi Napoli Sartodi Napoli provided this picture of a horrid shirt regarding fit. He is correct, but what puzzled me was why the body stripes are horizontal and the sleeves and collar are the conventional orientation.
bhae7o.jpg

I was under the impression that, due to something in the weaving process, one direction has more give and that any seamstress knows to figure out which it is and orient it a certain way where the quality will be best used. Stripes are generally vertical, but then certain parts (cuffs, collar, waistband) are horizontal. And the welting or piping or whatever it is called around pocket flaps is never matched as it is perpendicular. Actually, I guess that is something that you don't want to stretch?

But, on a side query, my obsession with jackets having the patterns of the collar and lapel match led me to wonder why coat collars do no have the stripes circling the neck, as on a shirt.
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Russell Street said:
Sartodi Napoli Sartodi Napoli provided this picture of a horrid shirt regarding fit. He is correct, but what puzzled me was why the body stripes are horizontal and the sleeves and collar are the conventional orientation.
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It's not that common, but I've certainly seen shirts with horizontal stripes for the body and then the more common vertical stripes for the sleeves. It's generally done in a more subdued pattern, such as a light blue and white bengal striped fabric and I think that it suits a more subdued fabric more because, as can be seen in the above picture, with a more vivid pattern it can be rather overpowering.

Russell Street said:
I was under the impression that, due to something in the weaving process, one direction has more give and that any seamstress knows to figure out which it is and orient it a certain way where the quality will be best used. Stripes are generally vertical, but then certain parts (cuffs, collar, waistband) are horizontal. And the welting or piping or whatever it is called around pocket flaps is never matched as it is perpendicular. Actually, I guess that is something that you don't want to stretch?

But, on a side query, my obsession with jackets having the patterns of the collar and lapel match led me to wonder why coat collars do no have the stripes circling the neck, as on a shirt.
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I suppose that at least some of the things you've mentioned are done out of custom and habit, rather than out of necessity. There may once have been good reason for doing them that way but I'm certainly not aware of them.

I have seen some examples of suits where the piping/jetting/welting around the edge of the pockets has been carefully matched with the direction of the pattern in the fabric, particularly with pinstripe or chalkstripe garments. I've only seen it on examples of bespoke or quality MTO garments, though.

Perhaps having a browse of some tailoring blogs, like Tom Mahon's "English Cut", could provide some answers. Sator's "Cutters and Tailors Forum" or the London Lounge might have some useful info, too.
 
Not sure it would be so much of an issue with cotton shirts, but horizontal striped wool suits require the fabric to be woven that way to be wearable, or else the garment will sag. This from Andrew Ramroop won him a 'most creative tailor' award.

suit.jpg


It's Zegna 120s but I'm not sure if it is woven with horizontal stripes, or it was just a matter of orienting regular pinstripes in such a way for a demonstration garment that was never intended to be worn.
 
Yes, but only from a certain Mimo Pirozzi of via Chaia 12345, who made a taccy coat entirely out of end-of-roll dust cloth.
 
prince nez said:
Not sure it would be so much of an issue with cotton shirts, but horizontal striped wool suits require the fabric to be woven that way to be wearable, or else the garment will sag.
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Thinking of a standard striped OCBD...hold on, I need a graphic.

Warp-and-Weft.gif

Ah, the stripes would be in the warp, and the weft is just a continuous white yarn. My assumption is that the warp has more tension, and hence less stretch to it.
In terms of sagging, horizontal stretching is likely to be a minor issue, but if the vertical yarn stretches there will be unsightly sagging.

Correct me if that's wrong, but it makes sense. A shirt collar should not stretch, and it is made with the more dimensionally stable warp circling the neck. I'm sure that Christopher Berry wouldn't want his shirt cuffs stretching either.

I'm still confused by the coat collar though. Actually, note that this Ramroop piece above has the stripes on the collar in the conventional orientation.
 
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Attention, several topics at once.

SHILLS, TACKYS, UNSHIRTS, LIES, CRAPTOM.

If you thought you have seen all the histrinic behaviour yet, here comes more,

Play attention of the shirt of this tacky, he is the vicepresident of the pay club of the Spanish blogger who shills all the untailors, the one who is anal friend of Craptom and the one where this last came invited with Luca Tackynacci on Madrid in December and came with a linen Summer suit.

Collar has checks, but body has the same colors but on stripes. On Craptom forum, he said this tacky was one of the most elegants of Spain, a huge ofense for Spaniards, or simply what Crap-tom considers elegance is what he wears, horrible fit, histrionism and breaking of all the rules of classic dressing.

This mad is member of a a para masonic club, he calls himself elegant, but on the political party he is, he wants to cut the tap water of a part of Spain, where paradoxically his other anal friend goes on Summer, very "elegant" behaviour this independentist who want to screw other parts of the same country.

On his mad eyes, as all of this same histrionic schyzotypal tackys, you can see what devil´s goblin he is.

The other tacky with a horrid jacket with poor pattern matching and red trousers ( red trousers is something a realman would never wear) is the untailor who the Arstocrat blogger shills all the time, the one who did the horrid shirt of the first post and all the crap he wears as the short horrible suit you said was terrible.

On the arstocrat book of Manual of the gheytleman, he says by any reason one has to wear pink gum ties ( Why?'), now see the tie of this old man. Also wearing the overcoat on a closed space just to show up is very " elegant" as well.

HISTRIONIC TACKYS

On the High Tailoring schools, he is our buffon and that untailor the joker. Even the 85 years old grandmaster, a very humble person, says that untailoring plenty of mistakes is a scam and he should have to get his hands cutted. The worst he has ever seen on 85 years.

2dj8av9.jpg
 
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The Eidos shirt pocket fiasco brought it to mind , but it ties to my own entry to sewing.

Basically, the first thing my mom always did when she picked up a piece of cloth was tug it in each direction. Apparently, in the weaving process, one rectilinear direction gets more stretch that the other for some reason. If anyone can explain that, please do. This matters in garment-making, as you want elasticity in some directions and not in others. From the brief bit of looking at home sewing patterns, they always indicate the grain line. The other example is coat pockets. The welted edge of a besom pocket (I may be using these terms wrong FYI) are from cloth cocked ninety degrees from the rest of the suit (unless made by Anderson & Sheperd IIRC). Because (I think) you want the suit to stretch horizontally, not vertically, but you don't want the the pockets to stretch and sag.

I dunno. I hope someone can expand on this, as I clearly don't know that much about the whole thing.
 
Russell Street said:
Apparently, in the weaving process, one rectilinear direction gets more stretch that the other for some reason. If anyone can explain that, please do.
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I can't explain it, but there have been discussions about this over on SF (and presumably on the Cutter & Tailor forum).

It is, apparently, the only real justification for having a split yoke on shirts* - orienting the cloth in a different way gives greater tensile strength. Of course, to serve any real purpose, it's necessary to have the cloth cut and attached "on the bias", so that the pieces of the yoke are oriented diagonally, rather than horizontally or vertically.** Otherwise, it's all just cosmetic.

*The reason usually given for having a split yoke is so that the shirt can fit better. This is, of course, total rubbish when it comes to off-the-rack shirts. Personally, I also think that it's total rubbish when it comes to made-to-order or bespoke shirts. After all, if you have differently-sized shoulders and you are having a shirt made for you, surely the tailor can simply cut an entire yoke that is assymetrical (longer on one side than the other) if required? It's not necessary to make the yoke from two, separate pieces of material as you can cut it in the shape required.

**When cutting and sewing the cloth for the yoke on a bias (with the pieces oriented diagonally), I suspect that it's important that both the inner and the outer pieces of fabric are all oriented the same way, otherwise it would seem to be pointless and, once again, a purely cosmetic exercise.
 
I know that I commented in the random style thoughts thread about the number of levitating shirt yokes I'd been seeing. Splitting a a yoke to allow it to sit flatter across a downward sloping shoulder makes some sense. The direction of the "stretch" not so much, but then again that is a long and narrow piece so what do I know?
If only a fine shirtmaking student like Sartodi Napoli Sartodi Napoli or even a guy with a book about it like Arnathor Arnathor could chime in!
 
I think Sarto would be better suited to this stuff. But what I've read briefly on yokes is that they should be 2 pieces.
 
This cornball shirt has reminded me of my original theory.
Russell Street said:
Thinking of a standard striped OCBD...hold on, I need a graphic.

Warp-and-Weft.gif

Ah, the stripes would be in the warp, and the weft is just a continuous white yarn. My assumption is that the warp has more tension, and hence less stretch to it.
In terms of sagging, horizontal stretching is likely to be a minor issue, but if the vertical yarn stretches there will be unsightly sagging.

Correct me if that's wrong, but it makes sense. A shirt collar should not stretch, and it is made with the more dimensionally stable warp circling the neck. I'm sure that Christopher Berry wouldn't want his shirt cuffs stretching either.
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My exposure to home sewing allows me to say that this is generally right, but sagging is generally not the issue but give. It's desirable that the shirt be able to stretch a bit in width to prevent tearing. You don't want cuffs and collars stretching. Or waistbands.
Incidentally, this is why pocket jetting, less Anderson& Sheppard and the like, doesn't match.
...everything matched perfectly on the stripes or checks. That meant, even down to the tiny strip of cloth that hinges on the pocket flap i.e. the “jetting”....

It’s also interesting that this method of of cutting a jetting also makes a slightly weaker pocket mouth. However, this doesn’t mean that the pocket will give way in time, but more that it will eventually loosen and bow down slightly.
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You get a better, well not necessarily better but easier, understanding of a garment cut on the bias and against the bias and across the bias by looking at womens skirts. As an aside I thoroughly recommend it as an inexpensive hobby too. Best done behind sunglasses. Its easier with womens skirts as a woman you know will probably have many different skirts - or dresses - cut differently with the bias. and then you can see what effect it has.

The big revolution in mens ties was when that bloke in NY in the 20s I started cutting on ties the bias and doing a 3 fold I think. Then they didn't twist but lay flat.

So yes - the "science " of the yoke is correct - in as far as it goes. As to whether that makes any difference, (and if that difference is worth paying for), to YOUR actual shirt and day to day wearing, comfort and durability, is debatable.

Fort-Belvedere-Tie-Cut-On-The-Bias-45-degree-angle.jpg
 
fxh said:
You get a better, well not necessarily better but easier, understanding of a garment cut on the bias and against the bias and across the bias by looking at womens skirts.
Click to expand...

I prefer to look up women's skirts.

:trollface2:
 
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