Pattern Matching

[Russell Street]

I'll leave the title broad, but I'm specifically interested in collar/lapel (aka gorge) pattern alignment. The tailor I've used, Manny Toyo, is very proud of having learned to do this. It supposedly takes an extra hour or so and requires hand joining of the collar. This seems to be a somewhat lost art, something that was once more common but is almost non-existent now.
Here's a file photo from his website.

And two blurry old photos of a piece he made for me.

Spoiler: blurry, sorry

If someone that knows tailoring, like Sartodi Napoli could weigh in on this aspect, I'd love to know the pros and cons.

 

[Sartodi Napoli]

We spent several days on school with it, note other students passed totally saying they didn´t care about, and me with my pathological perfection mania bothered the master all the time about it, so it stopped the class to explain it.

Pros; any top level jacket should be that way

Contra, takes a lot of time, not 100% of the times is possible, as also the stripes of the back collar got to be aligned with the ones of the back of the jacket, and this needs to be centered on the middle/ vertebral spine creating a several parameter to match combo. ( not for Madrid untailors, too difficult for them, they are too busy charging 2500 euros of a crap to politicians and Crap-tom fans)

So depending the body shape etc, in some ( very little) cases is not possible, on the rest, the tailor is a damn lazy, an useless, an untailor and a scammer.

In some high level rtw ones the cutters also do that. In poor ones as Orazio, they do not even i asked specifically i wanted it and even would pay more. I got a crap fused shit he even denied to fix it and put me polyester lining.

 

[Thruth]

That was actually kind of helpful Sartodi Napoli . Thanks.

I think there is a post on Grunwald's blog about a German tailor who takes time to pattern match.

Yup Volkmar Arnulf
http://www.the-journal-of-style.com/2014/08/05/details-volkmar-arnulf-suit/

 

[Thruth]

Thomas Mahon's post on the near impossibility to pattern match across shoulders of a hand made jacket

http://www.englishcut.com/2014/07/18/the-matching-myth-3/

 

[Sartodi Napoli]

Thomas Mahon's post on the near impossibility to pattern match across shoulders of a hand made jacket

http://www.englishcut.com/2014/07/18/the-matching-myth-3/

Oh well, that is another thing different that what i mean on the matchable combo of gorge with back.

This is a very hard to see ( because is unaceptable), and only on poor rtw can be found.

The striped got to be aligned, or at least start alligned just on the center of the neck, then can be misaligned if the client shape is odd a bit, but this way is a POOR job;

Edit, and now our favorite idiot, on an example of why i have ever said Tackynacci is CRAP and doesn´t worths even 500 of it´s 4500 euros.

Unaligned stripes on gorge on what looked a very easy job, note the lazy bad tailor even tried to allign them on one side, as is the habitual wehn can be done at 100%, also is easier when more separates he stripes are

, FAIL

 

[Thruth]

Despos (across shoulders)

Expect it not to match. It can be made to match but it is by compromising proper shoulder construction techniques. To match patterns on the shoulder you cannot put adequate fullness on the back part. I am compulsive about matching patterns but when it comes to the shoulder, no.

 

[Thruth]

Even ex-criminals pattern match

http://www.desmerrion.com/bespoke-pattern-matching/

 

[Thruth]

http://www.styleforum.net/t/722/matching-stripes-on-suits

#18 of 275/19/04
Len

As a Savile Row tailor of 33 years I can tell you that most tailors do not match the stripes where the collar and lapel meet. Again, it requires moving the collar into positions that it does not want, naturally, to go. Also, as said before, when someone has a low shouhlder then the distance from the back neck to the lapel is different each side. I had a new tailor make a stripe jacket for me last week and he matched the stripes from the collar to the lapel. I removed the collar, let the fabric lay where it wanted, and ten restitched it. they did not match. When asked to match stripe at this position I always tell my clients that I'll do it if they wish, but I do not recommend it. Personally, too, I think it looks ugly. I'm with the bourbon guy..

 

[Sartodi Napoli]

If you want to see the worst ever work, see the Spanish blogger arstocrat, yes the one who invited me to get sodomiced.

The fake master tailor who sells he is, answered to an email the pattern matching was perfect and i got to learn a lot from him.

My real masters, call him, " master of horrors", Langa un tailor, Madrid

He also did this unshirt, one of the worse ever, see the trouser unmatched all around, also by him.

BESPOKE CRAP, BUT THE SLEEVES ARE TOO SHORT, JAJAJAJA

WORST EVER MATCHING, ALL IS DONE BY THE FAKE MASTER, PATTERN MESS, SEE THE POCKETS ETC.

 

[Journeyman]

That picture gives me a headache.

There is something very odd about that shirt, and it's not just the horizontal stripes.

I can see that, just above the trouser waistband, there are leather straps for braces. Where are the actual braces? Do they disappear into the shirt? Or have they been edited out of the photo, for some reason? It looks very peculiar.

 

[Thruth]

How about posting something that demonstrates good pattern matching instead of regurgitating the stuff we have seen over and over again. You've already posted about that jacket twice here today and linked to the same post on SF and FNB.

We get it. We won't buy their stuff. Didn't even know these fucking clowns existed. They are tacky, scammer, untailors.

Don't you have any pics showing good stuff?

How the fuck can you be studying tailoring and not have any fucking examples of good shit?

 

[Sartodi Napoli]

That picture gives me a headache.

There is something very odd about that shirt, and it's not just the horizontal stripes.

I can see that, just above the trouser waistband, there are leather straps for braces. Where are the actual braces? Do they disappear into the shirt? Or have they been edited out of the photo, for some reason? It looks very peculiar.

The arstocrat blogger, we study him on my faculty, the Cathedrathics of Personality Disorders use to project on the wall him as a weird example of Schyzotypal disorder ( also my scammer of Chiaia), who wears the exact same glasses as him.

If he finds an odd feauture on Pitti or a book, he commisions it, his favorite hobby is to try to match all kind of circles, dots, stripes, horizontal stripes, Prince of Wales etc into a schyzofrenic mess. His latest hype was the adjuster on the trouser.

Szhyzotypal personality disorder, also this ignorant tacky shill said i got no f. idea using that word. Ok, i got it.

On Naples even printed t-shirts of his face and the sentence " we are better than Kiton", he is our official buffon after Crap-tom, who he copied the shill business.


See this mess of Calvo de Mora smoking and his ill eyes, scare mates.

See the ill fit and pattern mess trouser.

The young faker is the master of horrors, and the mad eyes looking featured on Crap.tom as " the most elegant Spaniard". See a mix between schyzophrenic, cokehead, paedophile ( also is freemason declared by him) and the kind of person you won´t share an elevator with, the last thing that comes to my mind about him is to be elegant.

Pay attention, the shirt body is checked, the collar is striped, using the same colours.

DAMN WEIRDOS.

That insults us Spaniards.

Those deserve ISIS, let me tell you

He wants to be this French tacky

degenerate;

 

[Thruth]

What colour is the sky in your hallucinatory world?

 

[Sartodi Napoli]

What colour is the sky in your hallucinatory world?

What do you mean?

Lucy is in the Sky with Diamonds? LSD?

 

[Sartodi Napoli]

How about posting something that demonstrates good pattern matching instead of regurgitating the stuff we have seen over and over again. You've already posted about that jacket twice here today and linked to the same post on SF and FNB.

We get it. We won't buy their stuff. Didn't even know these fucking clowns existed. They are tacky, scammer, untailors.

Don't you have any pics showing good stuff?

How the fuck can you be studying tailoring and not have any fucking examples of good shit?

Because i am a damn fascist who only collects frames, and plumb miniatures of Franco and the Duce and want to beat up those damn shill tackys.

You got me?

 

[Journeyman]

You got me?

Frankly, no.

Anyway, when you replied to my post, you didn't explain what was happening with his braces - how can the leather ends of the braces be showing at his trouser waistband, but the braces cannot be seen? Do they braces run under the shirt??

 

[Sartodi Napoli]

Frankly, no.

Anyway, when you replied to my post, you didn't explain what was happening with his braces - how can the leather ends of the braces be showing at his trouser waistband, but the braces cannot be seen? Do they braces run under the shirt??

Mate you are superb. Until this time i never realiced the wacko is so mad, and like to wear all the stupid tacky things at once, that the trouser already has side adjusters, but he is wearing braces at the same time. I never realiced are braces on it !

Jjajaja damn tacky idiot. All on him is a posse to show off he " knows" to dress more than the rest. Damn narcissistic idiot. This idiot used to go in nike everthing to the high school, i was told by people who knows him, so now he likes to avenges on his mind he is over the rest. A sad mental case.

 

[Thruth]

Frankly, no.

Anyway, when you replied to my post, you didn't explain what was happening with his braces - how can the leather ends of the braces be showing at his trouser waistband, but the braces cannot be seen? Do they braces run under the shirt??

Have you ever known Sartodi Napoli to actually provide examples of positive things in tailoring or provide examples of his own work to demonstrate dedication and quality of his craft? No. He is constantly asked in all the forums he frequents with his multitude of aliases. Occasionally he fucks up and posts something of value but catches himself and falls back to his normal MO.

And what kind of school of psychological quackery projects random pictures of people suspected to be psychotic because Sarto says so for case studies?

No, I now think Sarto is an inmate in a facility himself. One day a big fucking Indian is going to smother him with a pillow.

 

[Thruth]

What do you mean?

Lucy is in the Sky with Diamonds? LSD?

No if you were an acid fiend you would have really good ideas. You probably only had bad trips

 

[Sartodi Napoli]

No if you were an acid fiend you would have really good ideas. You probably only had bad trips

I don´t do drugs or shit. I just hate them all the tackys and supporters.

More Spanish untailoring

And now going to sleep after all night of studying.

Salute my roommate;

 

[Journeyman]

^ Why do you have Satanic imagery in your room??

Anyway, this thread has strayed far off track.

As Thruth suggested, it would be great if you (Sarto) could post pictures of suits, jackets and shirts that you think are good, and to explain why they are good, rather than posting picture after picture of clothing and people whom you think are bad.

 

[Sartodi Napoli]

^ Why do you have Satanic imagery in your room??

Anyway, this thread has strayed far off track.

As Thruth suggested, it would be great if you (Sarto) could post pictures of suits, jackets and shirts that you think are good, and to explain why they are good, rather than posting picture after picture of clothing and people whom you think are bad.

Let´s face it, i am a toxic who is negative all the time. Every time i see a bad tailored pic, i pull it on my mac screen for my folder of tackys, since January 2010, i collect them. The good pics of tailoring, are so few nowadays, that i think i posted all of them.

Going to bid for the original edition of 1986 TRAP JAW Master of the universe action figure. Bye bye





















( if you have reached this point, sure you will know not for sure) http://www.ebay.es/itm/TRAP-JAW-Mas...529726&pid=100011&rk=4&rkt=10&sd=291286550686

 

[Thruth]

Trap Jaw gots no use for pattern matching

 

[doghouse]

Because i am a damn fascist who only collects frames, and plumb miniatures of Franco and the Duce and want to beat up those damn shill tackys.

We've seen your pictures. We all know you couldn't beat up that kid crying leave Britney alone.

 

[ConchitaWurst]

He wants to be this French tacky View attachment 4729 degenerate;

I've been to his shop a few times about 8-10 years ago or so when I was in Paris a lot professionally. He is full on cosplay, but he's a very nice guy and at that time had (probably still has) a great selection of socks, scarfs and ties.

 

[doghouse]

^ Why do you have Satanic imagery in your room??

Skeletor is satanic?

 

[Russell Street]

Thomas Mahon's post on the near impossibility to pattern match across shoulders of a hand made jacket/

Supposedly there are Koreans that do the shoulder matching, and it involves a lot of stretching fabric and sub-par shape. Really, it's not the most visible area, so I don't see the point. That's a longer visible seam with a more complex curvature.

http://www.styleforum.net/t/722/matching-stripes-on-suits
As a Savile Row tailor of 33 years I can tell you that most tailors do not match the stripes where the collar and lapel meet. Again, it requires moving the collar into positions that it does not want, naturally, to go. Also, as said before, when someone has a low shouhlder then the distance from the back neck to the lapel is different each side... Personally, too, I think it looks ugly.

I know that I suffer from asymmetric shoulders, yet have two coats with immaculate matching. The second, which has a much wider pattern spacing, has no issues to my eye. The closing sentence nails it to me. The Row, for whatever reason, is happy with non-meeting lines. However, this bit about A&S doing matched jetting tempers that notion.

Here's another rarity. There was a customer in this same tailor shop wearing trousers where the stripe matched on the outside seam. I have never seen that before, and it looked sharp. I imagine that involves some compromise?

 

[doghouse]

I know that I suffer from asymmetric shoulders, yet have two coats with immaculate matching. The second, which has a much wider pattern spacing, has no issues to my eye. The closing sentence nails it to me. The Row, for whatever reason, is happy with non-meeting lines. However, this bit about A&S doing matched jetting tempers that notion.

The only thing I can suggest in that case is you don't know what you don't know.

 

[Russell Street]

I specified the Row when I meant the Brits in general. But they get so specific about what they are called.

 

[doghouse]

I specified the Row when I meant the Brits in general. But they get so specific about what they are called.

The fact that you aren't seeing the difference between cutting and shaping.

 

[Russell Street]

I think old Matt Deckard had photos of some old suit that had been shaped to hell. As I recall, the stripes somehow lined up with the bowed lapel edge of a DB, among other things. I tend to agree with his assessment that the stress on the cloth is inconsequential and labor-saving is the real reason this sort of thing is so poo-pooed by most tailors.
I believe the shaping all has to be reintroduced at each cleaning, but then so what?

 

[doghouse]

Do you want to compromise shape so you can have matching shoulder stripes? Are you going to reshape it yourself? Do you want to have a cheaper looking suit?

 

[Sartodi Napoli]

I've been to his shop a few times about 8-10 years ago or so when I was in Paris a lot professionally. He is full on cosplay, but he's a very nice guy and at that time had (probably still has) a great selection of socks, scarfs and ties.

Socks and scarfs?

Who damn unmen buys colorful socks or damn scarfs?

Ah you entered on his bondage dungeon downstairs, ok i understand.

 

[Russell Street]

Do you want to compromise shape so you can have matching shoulder stripes? Are you going to reshape it yourself? Do you want to have a cheaper looking suit?

Well, I already stated my opinion on the shoulder thing above. I'm less swayed by the same argument against lapels, as they're not so curvy or structural or anything.

Who damn unmen buys colorful socks or damn scarfs?

I do, I do!

And does anybody know anything about matching the side seam on pents???

 

[doghouse]

Well, I already stated my opinion on the shoulder thing above. I'm less swayed by the same argument against lapels, as they're not so curvy or structural or anything.

And I restate you don't know what you don't know ie., your shoulders don't actually fit as well as you say. Just because you can't tell doesn't mean that it's not true.

Instead of saying you aren't swayed, you might want to think about reconceptualizing the issue to be sure you have a clearer understanding of fit, shape and cloth manipulation.

 

[ConchitaWurst]

Socks and scarfs?

Who damn unmen buys colorful socks or damn scarfs?

Ah you entered on his bondage dungeon downstairs, ok i understand.

yes totally . you know me so well .

why haven't you responded in the thread about frankie knuckles ? after reading yesterday that you idolize the full on ghey mussolini , i'm more and more inclined to believe you are directed by your subconsience.

 

[Russell Street]

And I restate you don't know what you don't know ie., your shoulders don't actually fit as well as you say. Just because you can't tell doesn't mean that it's not true.

Since you seem not to be understanding my writing, I am not defending the shoulder seam thing. I don't have anything like that and agree with Mahon.
However, the lapel thing (barring this ridiculous copout about a dropped shoulder making it unpossible) is, in my understanding, a mere matter of geometry* and extra effort.
*I asked and it was confirmed that it's a simple matter of bisecting the angle of the two patterns.

 

[Thruth]

just took a look at two suits of mine

 

[Sartodi Napoli]

Looks nice,

It has pattern matching on the gorge and back, but on front and back at same time i think is not possible unless simply coincides by pure luck. Will ask my master about.

 

[Thruth]

Socks and scarfs?

Who damn unmen buys colorful socks or damn scarfs?

Ah you entered on his bondage dungeon downstairs, ok i understand.

yes totally . you know me so well .

why haven't you responded in the thread about frankie knuckles ? after reading yesterday that you idolize the full on ghey mussolini , i'm more and more inclined to believe you are directed by your subconsience.