Soliciting advice on how to "write" an unbiased" review" (but not really a review) on a freebie

Chorn

Chorn

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So, I'll be receiving a freebie to wear. I will of course be up front about what I paid for it (shipping). I made it clear, when I received the offer, that I wouldn't shill, and if the product wasn't great, I wouldn't do anything to indicate otherwise.

My review is going to be limited to a few words on the comfort of the product. Everything else is going to be pictures.

I'll be crowdsourcing the review. After the initial pictures, I'll be asking members, both here and on SF, to indicate what I should be photographing. Basically, have other people, who did not get any free products, direct the lens. I'll be using a 35mm for medium distance shots and a 40mm lens for macro shots so that no imperfection will be spared (or, if there are little or few, it will be clear that the product is good).

I'll provide more information (product and seller) when I receive the product. I'll be consulting you folks for ideas for the initial pictures.

I'm relying on you folks to keep me honest.
 
Can't you tell us what it is? Not necessarily the brand, but is it a shoe, a tie, etc.. You make it sound like a shoe.

Photography is overrated unless this is a full bespoke item and you need to get down to the stitching detail levels.

The best question is will you be sending it back, and if not, do you really believe yourself capable of trashing the shit out of these people who just gave you something for nothing?
 
No, I'm not sending it back. And no, I don't think I could trash the shit out of something unless it was truly awful. Which is why I won't be saying much of anything, regardless of how good or bad it is. I am reasonably confident that, if there are flaws, I won't hesitate in capturing them on camera. In such a case, I am merely acting as a medium without imposing any editorial bias. Though I realize it's possible to do such a thing with a camera, I'm nowhere near a good enough photographer to be able to do that.

I'll also be willing to do a little bit of deconstruction of the product; nothing irreversible.

Like I said, I'm looking for a third way.

How something "feels" is probably the only thing which can't be reasonably captured by photography if done well, and that's probably a product of fit, which, since this isn't going to be bespoke, isn't going to be a huge issue. Though I guess construction may also be a factor.
 
I understand your point of view on this, but if you're not saying much, then is it really a "review"? What you're proposing sounds more like a photo shoot rather than a review.

Again, I don't know what this product is (I'm guessing tie at this point), but if you're not putting it through its paces, as much as can be done with a tie at least, then what will the point of your review be? How will you differentiate it from the sellers own pictures? Why read your "review" at all? Think about it, if you're not giving much in the way of personal feedback to the reader, how is it any different than a shill post on a blog? Or marketing material?

Not to sidetrack, but this is one of my major problems with travel reviews. If you're being "sponsored" by the nation of Panama (via their tourist bureau), and put up for free or relatively nothing, are you really going to tell us its a fucking dump if it was? On top of making you feel like a heel, if you properly disclose that you got all this for nothing or next to nothing, then you seem like an ungrateful shithead. Then there's the cost angle - if you paid nothing for it, isn't it something you could just live through as opposed to informing the whole world that you paid X amount of dollars only to find all these roaches?

The clothing reviews via blogs are in much the same vein. If you got this bespoke pair of shoes for $1000, and there's even the slightest problem with the fit, that shit is getting outed via the review. You can't believe that something like this happened after all of your fittings and waiting 6 months! But if you paid nothing for it? Well, then maybe it becomes "a small flaw" or a "mixup" or even, possibly, your fault because, well, now that you think about it, maybe you did over measure just a little bit on the length and if you were a bit more careful next time...

Its a very slippery slope.
 
Well, a shill post in a blog or a marketing review is going to have an editorial direction, and I think we've well established that it is very difficult to be editorially objective if a product is being given to you. Any feedback I give that isn't negative is going to be questioned (and well it should!). And if I say, "well, because of this, I'm only going to be giving negative feedback," that's unfair to the provider. So other than a few cursory comments to the comfort of the item, I won't be providing any feedback either way.

So I suppose "review" is the wrong word. It's more about giving people the closest thing to access to a product, untainted by bias or direction, without actually holding it in their hands.

If, for example, there appears to be a flaw or inconsistency in the stitching somewhere, you can say, "Chorn, can you take a closer picture of this right there, and sort of pull on the leather/fabric to indicate how much give there is." I doubt any marketing material would be willing to do that.

But yeah, "review" is definitely the wrong word. I'm open to suggestions for a better one.

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Also, it is either shoes, pants, or a jacket. Sorry I'm not giving more details. But I think viewers can learn a lot about any of those three through pictures, particularly if they tell me where to shoot and what to take apart (so until I receive the item...or at least until its shipped...hopefully you guys can provide some fruitful conversation and constructive advice). When I actually receive the product, I'll let you guys know. I guess I'm being bizarrely superstitious?
 
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Regardless of how presumably great the photos are, provide at least a caption to hint at what you expect us to see. It is very possible to have a series of shots that highlight particular things but the casual viewer totally misses the point of it all unless explicit attention is called to things.
 
Well, I'm not calling attention to them, the readers are. I'd then quote the request for a closer picture or a particular angle or whatnot, and then provide the obliging shot.

If I do notice anything, they'll be in the initial set of pictures. And I'll be posting those here before posting on SF so you guys can suggest anything else I should be including in the initial set of pictures. I also hope that some members here are willing to request pictures there just in case the general SF audience isn't willing to be critical enough.

Though ideally, it'll be awesome and there won't be much to be critical of.
 
I think even then, there will be bias in how you tell the narrative.
 
Still, that's why I'm avoiding the narrative approach in addition to avoiding the straight up written review approach. I do agree that a narrative review is implicitly more honest, or at least sincere.
 
Chorn said:
Still, that's why I'm avoiding the narrative approach in addition to avoiding the straight up written review approach. I do agree that a narrative review is implicitly more honest, or at least sincere.
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Seems simple in principle but should there be "flaws" and it generates the typical forum back and forth, do you just sit back and let that happen without comment? Photos are fine but since you are the one wearing the piece, do you not see a need to arbitrate to help decide if the issue is something or nothing? You are the only one who can examine the product in real life.
 
As far as arbitration, I think all I'll do, if there is back and forth, is provide more pictures of whatever the issue is. If pushed, I suppose I could speak to it, and hopefully my reluctance to interject my own opinion will testify to my attempt at sincerity. If I'm not pushed to comment, then I won't comment on the back and forth.

So yes, I do see the need. But in light of what's being discussed in the PC thread, and with the issue of receiving free stuff as a whole, it'll be a line that I don't consider worth crossing.
 
Chorn said:
Well, a shill post in a blog or a marketing review is going to have an editorial direction, and I think we've well established that it is very difficult to be editorially objective if a product is being given to you. Any feedback I give that isn't negative is going to be questioned (and well it should!). And if I say, "well, because of this, I'm only going to be giving negative feedback," that's unfair to the provider. So other than a few cursory comments to the comfort of the item, I won't be providing any feedback either way.

So I suppose "review" is the wrong word. It's more about giving people the closest thing to access to a product, untainted by bias or direction, without actually holding it in their hands.

If, for example, there appears to be a flaw or inconsistency in the stitching somewhere, you can say, "Chorn, can you take a closer picture of this right there, and sort of pull on the leather/fabric to indicate how much give there is." I doubt any marketing material would be willing to do that.

But yeah, "review" is definitely the wrong word. I'm open to suggestions for a better one.

---

Also, it is either shoes, pants, or a jacket. Sorry I'm not giving more details. But I think viewers can learn a lot about any of those three through pictures, particularly if they tell me where to shoot and what to take apart (so until I receive the item...or at least until its shipped...hopefully you guys can provide some fruitful conversation and constructive advice). When I actually receive the product, I'll let you guys know. I guess I'm being bizarrely superstitious?
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A bit bizarre, yes, but I understand. I don't quite understand this narrative angle though. I really seems like this guy who you set this up with is getting a lot of free press for nothing. I get where you're coming from on your end, but I just don't see how this is any different from you buying it and taking pictures of it. "Hey, look at this thing I just bought" vs. "Hey, look at this thing some schmuck I know sent me for free".
 
Perhaps at the moment, but I'm also trying to anticipate problems (as thruth provided), and when I actually have the stuff, I hope you guys will help determine what I need to photograph to do the idea justice.
 
On one hand, the disclaimer of "I got this for free (or reduced cost or whatever) is a rarity on SF and elsewhere across the blogosphere, so it is a good thing.

On the other, it formalizes the supplier-receiver relationship and automatically engages the shill factor. The posting of photos and letting others do the critique is no different than the covert shilling where people view and make comments. Unless you are explaining your MO in this process - I'll have to reread what you've said.

I think it is critical that if significant or minor issues are noted, that you comment, then you are seen to be giving an unbiased opinion on the schwag you got. I also think a statement regarding if you would buy this now that you have experienced it would be helpful.

Then go out and by a heap of the product and post your invoices to show you are not really a shill.

This is going to cost you, shill!

More seriously, I think it is a dangerous game as this move will change how you are perceived. But if you don't care, then this point is moot to you.
 
It's a dangerous game, which is why I'm talking it over here. And yeah, I'll be explaining my MO and at least referencing the current discussion in the PC thread.

If I comment on the flaws, then don't I also have to also comment on the benefits? That's a line I am not sure I want to cross.

As far as what's different from covert shilling: I'll have an aware audience looking for flaws and positive features, directing the lens.
 
Chorn said:
It's a dangerous game, which is why I'm talking it over here. And yeah, I'll be explaining my MO and at least referencing the current discussion in the PC thread.

If I comment on the flaws, then don't I also have to also comment on the benefits? That's a line I am not sure I want to cross.

As far as what's different from covert shilling: I'll have an aware audience looking for flaws and positive features, directing the lens.
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True. But to some, saying nothing is the ultimate shill-out. Look, I get where you are coming from. A disclaimer plus pros and cons goes further than most. A review that notes shortcomings also should contain your opinion on the product's strengths.

You should not fear giving your overall opinions on schwag.

If you say "know what, I looked for downsides but couldn't 'to find any" it is acceptable. It is about how you spin the review.

If everything is left unsaid, people will assume what your motivations are and then you are spending your time saying "I know you are but what am I"
 
thruth said:
More seriously, I think it is a dangerous game as this move will change how you are perceived. But if you don't care, then this point is moot to you.
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'gazzo suggests some people are suspect that Henry Carter gives me discounts given how highly I speak of him, so perhaps it wouldn't change much
 
Chorn said:
'gazzo suggests some people are suspect that Henry Carter gives me discounts given how highly I speak of him, so perhaps it wouldn't change much
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That's what it comes down to: do you care what people think and post about you.

I look at this from a business sense. You declare any conflicts of interest apriori. This does not stop you from providing your opinion given your declaration of your relationship to issue at hand. Sometimes you recuse yourself completely, other times not.
 
Well, if there are faults, it will be very bad publicity. If there are none, it would be good publicity. Which is really the point. Good products deserve good publicity. Bad products deserve none, but the bad publicity serves as a disincentive to put bad products up for..."review" really is the wrong word here for what I may be attempting. An alternative to a review?

As far as mute analysis...what is it that I could provide (serious question) that you guys couldn't directing me and the camera? The only thing I can really think of would be comfort of an item.

thruth said:
That's what it comes down to: do you care what people think and post about you.

I look at this from a business sense. You declare any conflicts of interest apriori. This does not stop you from providing your opinion given your declaration of your relationship to issue at hand. Sometimes you recuse yourself completely, other times not.
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As long as what they post isn't true? Not really. It's the internet. If it is true, and they have a point, I suppose I would be bothered.

So yeah, how it reflects on me isn't really an issue. More on how it functions as an alternative to a more standard "I got this for free, this is what I think about it, but keep in mind I can't be entirely unbiased because I, on some level, probably feel I owe the guy who gave it to me."

Though I guess after everything has been discussed, all the pictures taken and re-taken, I could provide my thoughts on the product? If my thoughts are too positive, I might refrain, as perverse as that sounds. At that point, I'd probably just let the pictures do the talking.
 
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^ what Russell said.

If the product is good say so. I think your opinion on if you would buy it at full retail, discount, never etc. goes a long way in ameliorating the shill factor.

How it compares to similar products also injects objectivity. Value for price.

As long as it is something more than:

"This was waiting for me in today's post. As I greedily tore off the wrapping and opened the box I came. I closed the box, ate 3 bananas, because I knew I would come again when I tried it on and wanted to do justice by it...."
 
The problem is that "would I buy it" is as much a function of aesthetics as it is construction and quality of materials.

For example, I would never pay full price for Aldens, though I would pay more for Crockett and Jones. The best I might be willing to do, in terms of providing a subjective opinion, is say something along the lines of "at this price, this seems like a good value compared to other items of similar quality." Yeah, I think I might be ok with that. Might.

This is an intriguing headache. Thanks for all the food for thought so far.
 
Chorn said:
The problem is that "would I buy it" is as much a function of aesthetics as it is construction and quality of materials.

For example, I would never pay full price for Aldens, though I would pay more for Crockett and Jones. The best I might be willing to do, in terms of providing a subjective opinion, is say something along the lines of "at this price, this seems like a good value compared to other items of similar quality." Yeah, I think I might be ok with that. Might.

This is an intriguing headache. Thanks for all the food for thought so far.
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Certainly aesthetics comes into play. But part of being a reviewer is also putting things into context and perspective for those you are presenting to with more sanguine analysis.

It is an endeavour fraught with many pitfalls
 
Chorn said:
Good products deserve good publicity. Bad products deserve none, but the bad publicity serves as a disincentive to put bad products up for..."review" really is the wrong word here for what I may be attempting. An alternative to a review?
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I strenuously disagree with this sentiment. If anything, bad products deserve more publicity, so as to give potential buyers something to latch on to.
 
Seconded. Most "reviews" are one-sided about how wonderful the product is, induced by the shill factor to draw in customers.

The downfalls are far more important in enabling people to decide to buy or not.
 
thruth said:
"This was waiting for me in today's post. As I greedily tore off the wrapping and opened the box I came. I closed the box, ate 3 bananas, because I knew I would come again when I tried it on and wanted to do justice by it...."
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No fetishistic inanity! I think I've called this virgin in the whorehouse idolatry and it stinks.
If you must, feel free to use lab writing, third person passive tense. Treat the thing like a specimen. Be devoid of emotion and as blandly matter of fact as possible. But note anomolies, compare to other specimens and the norm. Try to quantify as much as possible.
But still, there is a bunch of adjective-ridden descriptive prose that really is not inherently problematic.
 
Just write the review. Think of book reviews - no one pays for their book to review.
John Updike established five useful rules :
  1. Try to understand what the author wished to do, and do not blame them for not achieving what they did not attempt.
  2. Give them enough direct quotation – at least one extended passage – of the book’s prose so the reader can form their own impression, can get their own taste.
  3. Confirm your description of the book with quotation from the book, if only phrase-long, rather than proceeding by fuzzy precis.
  4. Go easy on plot summary, and do not give away the ending.
  5. If the book is judged deficient, cite a successful example along the same lines, from the author’s ouevre or elsewhere. Try to understand the failure. Sure it’s theirs and not yours?
Just adapt that to your mysterious clothing object

People often buy things others give a bad review to. And people often hate things others like. Just give enough info, including price so that others can decide to buy or not. Keeping in ind that not everyone is able to ask their parents for a handout or draw down on the trust fund like the most frequent posters.
 
The mystery item is a pair of shoes. Which is another reason why I'll need y'all's help. The new AV, Sartorial Luxury, gave them to me basically just to wear. He openly mentioned that he was doing this on his thread.

The rest was my idea.

ClaytonThumb1.jpg
 
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I am being given a free shoe. I want to try an alternative to a review with as little of my opinion/judgment in it as possible, as it's been compromised by the gift. Instead, you guys (here or on SF...but hopefully on SF so any criticisms/flaws/strengths you notice are public on the same forum as the vendor) direct me to take pictures of certain areas, bend the shoes in certain ways, etc, etc etc. Ask descriptive questions which I can answer somewhat objectively.

Initially, I am going to explain what I'm doing, then a picture or two of the shoes out of the box, and about half a dozen pictures of after 3-4 days of hard wear (a day of rest between each wear). After that, folks tell me where I should take pictures. I'm using a 35mm for most shots, but will have a 40mm on hand should someone request macro photography. Any flaws I notice, I will include in the first batch. Any flaws anyone else notices, I will photograph to their hearts' content and describe it to the best of my ability (e.g. this bump feels about the height of blah blah blah).
 
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sounds like a plan.

in a nutshell:
my "problem". the first roll out of models is nowhere - stylewise. the quality might be there. the inner lining and sockliner is inferior to their targeted competitors but reflects the usual italian and/or turkish standard.

I would rate them a bit higher than the typical fashion brands. they are in the ferragamo, testoni territory. basic to middle lines.

actually, they are not directly compareable to AE or Alden. take this like it is for the moment.

imo, their concept isn't as accurate than the recent start ups that approached sf.

if they have the cash, they should try the luxury/fashion market as a boutique brand. sf is a lost game, imo.
 
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