The Canvas: A Proper-Fitting Shirt

Zé Ferreira

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Nothing here yet addresses the palette on which MC and SWD operate - the shirt.

Tonight, in light of Rambo posting the wonderful 29.50 CT deal, I thought about shirts and a discussion on your best-fitting, best quality-to-price ratio, etc.

FWIW, having purchased a few Charles Tyrwhitt shirts last summer to serve as office-workhorses, you can't beat the shirts for that discounted price. I plan on stocking up again in a variety of whites, blues, and lavender patterns. I find I'm leaning most frequently to solids, or subtle solid-esque patterns like microchecks, herringbones, and microstripes. I particularly like the "puppytooth" patterns on CT right now.

For casual shirts, I've already sung Mauro's praises w/ his offerings. They're definitely pricier, but especially with the rewards membership, Wolf vs. Goat really can't be beat as far as quality of materials go. WvG definitely sells more towards the #streetwear side of the equation, but many of Mauro's offerings can easily jump into the workplace.

On the other hand, brands like Epaulet have positioned themselves to moreso attack the biz-caz customer. Despite my Epaulet-love, as I discover more #menswear brands and branch out a bit, I realize that EP, particularly in the last year, has definitely moved their avg price-point higher. That puts me off a bit. While I love their trousers and shoe collabs, I don't think their shirts stand up in construction or fit to, for example, Kamakura. I think Kamakura currently offers the best price-to-value combo for a strictly RTW shirt available on the net. Their OCBDs are absolute perfection.

I think Betelgeuse Betelgeuse had experience w/ Luxire, which I also read is good. Care to share?
 

Rambo

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I thought about shirts and a discussion on your best-fitting, best quality-to-price ratio, etc.
These two concepts might not even encompass the same shirt. For instance, lets say your CT shirts are your best quality-to-price shirts, but they come a bit baggy in the waist and you have to have the sides taken in or darts added. Even with the addition of the tailoring they're still half the price of other MTM shirts. On the other hand, the Kamakura shirts nail down your fit perfectly, making it your best-fitting. The question then becomes is it worth the additional effort, time, and money, to deal with the CT shirts, or just to pony up the extra cash for the Kamakura and be done with it knowing you'll never have to worry about it and can wear it right out of the box?
 

Betelgeuse

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No problem Argen. I posted a bit on this thread.

I also wrote in there about other brand, Moda Republic, that have a nice product and the customer relationship is a bit better than with Luxire. Also Luxire have added a $25 shipping fee that covers shipping and duties, which to me is not convinient cause I haven't been hit by customs or something like that so the price goes a bit up, unless you order 3 or 4.

With my last shirt with Luxire I have pretty much solved a lot of issues, I haven't post a pic of the fitt cause I'm fat right now and the shirt is for when I'm leaner so the waist area is a bit tight but chest and shoulders feel comportable and not tight.

This is the last one from Luxire

900x900px-LL-258616a1_demsfvalues.jpeg


And this is the one by Moda Republic. IMO they copied the collar a lot better (I sent the measurements of a Barba collar)

900x900px-LL-b878a454_86489410.jpeg
 

doghouse

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I'm not big on CT for shirts (though they are a great deal and I too am on a total houndstooth kick I can't seem to recover from), but I love the value from their cotton slim fit trousers.

I still say Harvie & Hudson are by far the most unbeatable shirt for the money. They deliver good Acorn fabric and decent finishing for around 50-70 bucks on sale.
 

Zé Ferreira

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These two concepts might not even encompass the same shirt. For instance, lets say your CT shirts are your best quality-to-price shirts, but they come a bit baggy in the waist and you have to have the sides taken in or darts added. Even with the addition of the tailoring they're still half the price of other MTM shirts. On the other hand, the Kamakura shirts nail down your fit perfectly, making it your best-fitting. The question then becomes is it worth the additional effort, time, and money, to deal with the CT shirts, or just to pony up the extra cash for the Kamakura and be done with it knowing you'll never have to worry about it and can wear it right out of the box?

I didn't mean to imply that the same shirt would satisfy all the criteria I laid out. Just to prompt a discussion of the various aspect of "what makes a shirt for you?"

doghouse doghouse , I've not heard of Harvie & Hudson....
 

Rambo

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I didn't mean to imply that the same shirt would satisfy all the criteria I laid out. Just to prompt a discussion of the various aspect of "what makes a shirt for you?"

doghouse doghouse , I've not heard of Harvie & Hudson....
Oh I know. I was just taking the concept and running with it.

So, how would you answer that?

Never heard of them either.
 
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I love a good shirt, always have done. The look, the feel, the whole thing. At school it was the only part of our attire over which we had much influence, so from a young age I saved up my pocket money to get down to Jermyn St and buy nice shirts. As a result my shirt game has always been ahead of the rest of my wardrobe.
 

Allen Smithee

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Any suggestions for economical pinpoint button-downs? Kamakura has funny sizes, and I could go cheaper. The cancer of non-iron finishes has killed the lower end market. The English don't much do button-down collars so much.
 

doghouse

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Lands End from time to time. But they are so all over the map with collar roll it can be a toss up.
 

Rambo

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Lands End from time to time. But they are so all over the map with collar roll it can be a toss up.
I was told these were not bad for an entry level

http://www.landsend.com/madetowork/

Now, I have no experience with these, and the guy I got the information from is a complete and total douchebag, but it might be worth a try especially if you have a Sears in town to return them to.
 

doghouse

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Yeah, those are probably pretty good value. The only thing with LE is they can put out totally different shirts from day to day when they change suppliers.
 

Russell Street

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Lands End from time to time. But they are so all over the map with collar roll it can be a toss up.
Yeah, those are probably pretty good value. The only thing with LE is they can put out totally different shirts from day to day when they change suppliers.
As a waning LE fan, I am in complete agreement on their inconsistency. Some stuff is superb, some dreck, and it's always a surprise which it will be. It wasn't always like that and I suspect the spottiness occurred with the Sears merger.
 

Rambo

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As a waning LE fan, I am in complete agreement on their inconsistency. Some stuff is superb, some dreck, and it's always a surprise which it will be. It wasn't always like that and I suspect the spottiness occurred with the Sears merger.
If it makes you feel better, they've now separated. I don't know how that bodes for returns at Sears either.
 

Russell Street

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haven't lands end gone to short collars?
At least some of their collar points have gotten short in that "good luck sticking a tie under this" way. One could call up their customer service and jerk them around to go measuring, but I'm betting it's a crapshoot at best.
If it makes you feel better, they've now separated. I don't know how that bodes for returns at Sears either.
It cracks me up that the stupid LE shops in Sears had mixed sleeve length shirts, while you could order direct and get specific sizes. The Sears shops were also not up to date with marking stuff down, which was ridiculous.
Driving to a Sears and throwing the inadequate return items at them was much more fun and less trouble than actually shipping things back or just eating the purchase price.
 

doghouse

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I dig it in a Tom Wolfe sort of way. But knowing Manton likes it diminishes my enthusiasm considerably
 

Russell Street

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I know some people like this style (e.g. Manton), but I find this collar band way too high. Apart from looking odd, it looks stuffy as hell.
I think Tom Wolfe liked the tall collar bands*. But he was lanky and had old man neck to hide. Manton, I'm pretty sure, is also a gaunt dude who benefits from having his giraffe neck minimized.
I agree that they just shorten the neck and add an odd Edwardian air to things. They work on some people, but I don't see our beefier Betelgeuse as a prime candidate for them.
*D'oh, beat to the punch by doghouse. #slowtyper
 

Allen Smithee

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Lands End from time to time. But they are so all over the map with collar roll it can be a toss up.
they were my standby. Were. If Paul Frederick wasn't so full of oddball fabrics, I'd give them a shot. So Brooks is the real entry point, huh?
 

Betelgeuse

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I know some people like this style (e.g. Manton), but I find this collar band way too high. Apart from looking odd, it looks stuffy as hell.


I forgot to give Luxire and Moda Republic the height of the front collar band. :(

It was my mistake, the collar I wanted to copy is 1cm shorter.
 

Russell Street

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Can someone explain the point of having a cuff button way at the top of the cuff? I think an old Brooks shirt has like that, and the corner always got folded back.
This Sebastian Ward boasts of
Slim Cuffs with a high buttoning point fit snugly against your arm, causing the opening to torsion against your wrist and stop cleanly at the wrist bone.
This allows for added sleeve length allowance to the wearer’s preference.
I don't really follow this at all.
 
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EFV

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Any suggestions for economical pinpoint button-downs? Kamakura has funny sizes, and I could go cheaper. The cancer of non-iron finishes has killed the lower end market. The English don't much do button-down collars so much.

I know this was posted back in May, but I bought some really cheap pinpoint BD's from TM Lewin.
They serve me well as everyday office shirts:
41610_original_original.jpg
 

Thruth

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Did your TM Lewin's shrink much? Years ago I was disappointed with the amount of shrinkage and stopped buying them
 
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Yeah, they shrunk a bit in length + sleeve length (maybe half an inch or so), not so much in width though.
 

Thruth

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Yup. Sleeve length & neck for me
 

Allen Smithee

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I know this was posted back in May, but I bought some really cheap pinpoint BD's from TM Lewin.
They serve me well as everyday office shirts:
41610_original_original.jpg
The cololar points look borderline but the collar looks soft. I rolled the dice to see how bad Jos. A. Bank could be. They have the old-school blousy fit still. My main problem is that the cuff is about twice the circumference needed. It must be a foot around.
 

doghouse

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The cololar points look borderline but the collar looks soft. I rolled the dice to see how bad Jos. A. Bank could be. They have the old-school blousy fit still. My main problem is that the cuff is about twice the circumference needed. It must be a foot around.

Are you sure they aren't pants?
 

Sartodinapoli

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Hi,

Any English shirt is even ok, all got plastic button, fabric lesser than 40/2 ( 2 euros or less a metter), wide machine stitching of even 1 cm!!!

Stiff collars,
plastic buttons
awful fit
made not in Europe, as the fraudulent european law allows to put made in X if even 1% is done on UK or whatever, ergo labeling etc. Come from Bangladesh factories that done for ZARA, GAP or similar, but here you pay a lot more.

Harvie % Hudson; terrible shirts
The James Bond, Turnbull and ASS-er. horrible and minimun petition of 6 shirts for a mediocre with no prior fit mtm at circa 300 euros per shirt.
Chester Barrie Savile Row, a joke of shirt, this barely could sell for more than 15 euros, but who knows what price they got.
Budd shirts, as it says BAD shirts.
etc etc. I have never seen in my life an English shirt i would rate over 3 out of 10, seriously.

Please do not contribuite this industrialist who live of past ages get rich abusing their name and do not buy this brands. Get a real shirtmaker instead, and no Jermyn Street please, any that i know is even mediocre.
 

Sartodinapoli

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I take it that you make shirts yourself? Affiliated vendor status?


Nope, No affiliate or wanting to have it after seeing how they fool clients, last fraud a terrible shirt of Luxire, and the maker didn´t want to do another, but worse were the answers of those hooligans,( one even was Prick1, the same idiot who on the Gianni scandal said I was a troll, when i was one of the exposersm he did the same ridicule there and his insulting post were deleted), some answers were, wear a jacket over the shirt, what can you expect for the first shirt, or the ilegal clausule of the seller, we do not pay returns for bad garments. JAJAJA.


Appart of this,i got the degree in Naples last month after several years with who is considered the best master alive, who was trained by Vincenzo Attolini, and was years and years master tailor of Rubinacci when the brand was serious and not today... Then i trained with the big K and the Bo... crew.

But that doesn´t matters on this case, me as client before i went there to learn, client as you all and having had shirts of almost all the brands, any English is even ok. ( I even got once a totally off disquared Drakes tie, and the master cutter or whoever told me if was perfect, it was a joke,not a second but a third, and those wanted to convince me that crooked tie was perfect instead of being humble and accept the obvious mistake.)

Some as the Chester Barrie in fact is the exact same shirt that can be labeled Wallmart, Sears,Gap etc as might come from the same factory indeed.

Is all a fraud, even some( the only ok ones ) were done in Naples and tagged HandMade in England, i laughed loud when i watched the huge bag with tags as if England manufacture was better than Naples, but for the people with low knowledge that buys those brands and believes all the Savile/ Jermyn hype sure it is. Marketing, the art of selling crap at prices of gold.
 

Sartodinapoli

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More overpriced crap, this shirt looks 20 euros, on the Naples street shops are better for 20. Cost 240 and has poor look, i guess mediocre fabric instead of the 170/2 up of 40 euros to 75 euros meter we the real shirtmakers use, has poor plastic looking buttons of TROCA , the cheap MOP discharted material not used for good MOP ones, and looks poor. Cost 240 euros!!! The same price of a bespoke handmade shirt with Carlo Riva cloth, this is a SCAM!!!

Edit, they even copied the white gusset that my masters and friends of Borrelli invented, DISGUSTING.

What TACKY THING IS THE BACK OF THE SHIRT WITH A TRIANGLE ON THE SPINE?

2u8cavb.jpg


The collection features the Drake's signature cutaway collar based on a semi-fitted body, single rounded two button cuffs, whipped Mother of Pearl buttons, our signature triangle stitch detail below the yoke, inverted centre back pleats and contrast parchment gussets.


http://www.drakes.com/online-shop/new-arrivals/cleeve-of-london-for-drake-s-shirt
 
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Rambo

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Can someone explain these to me please:

"inverted centre back pleats and contrast parchment gussets."

What?
 

Sartodinapoli

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Can someone explain these to me please:

"inverted centre back pleats and contrast parchment gussets."

What?


That is what i asked, after this minutes of wondering that vomiting profanation, I guess the shirt has a pleat on the center back of the shirt, seems closed from the yoke hanger accesory sewn down to the middle of the back, then they sewn the Borrelli white gussets there, and after it, the pleat opens but having a white triangle on your back, the most TACKY SHITTE since Luca Tackynacci or Gianni caca-rruti.

A real ABERRATION and normal since those bad dressers of the Armoury bought Drakes, prior a serious bramd, those kiddos with no socks and all the tacky history also bring Orazio Luciano, the scammer who robbed me, delivered a fused horrible suit and was kicked of Kiton decades ago by robbing full suits and fabrics while he worked there, incredible!!!
 

Thruth

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Can someone explain these to me please:

"inverted centre back pleats and contrast parchment gussets."

What?

A shirt can have no back pleats.

Side pleats
image.jpg


Centre back (box pleat - very common)
image.jpg


Inverted back pleat (not as common, with the box being internal)
image.jpg


The gusset is the triangle of fabric at the seam of the shirt bottom to add strength. In this case, the gusset is in a contrasting colour to the shirt (parchment or off white colour)

Here is a contrast gusset (white)
image.jpg
 
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Sartodinapoli

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That is for real classic shirts, but on this Drakes unshirt, the pleat seems on the center, and goes opened and with a gusset, no on the sides, but on the center back, see the diagram i pasted. Is a crime!
 

Rambo

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A shirt can have no back pleats.

Side pleats
View attachment 2522

Centre back (box pleat - very common)
View attachment 2529

Inverted back pleat (not as common, with the box being internal)
View attachment 2527

The gusset is the triangle of fabric at the seam of the shirt bottom to add strength. In this case, the gusset is in a contrasting colour to the shirt (parchment or off white colour)

Here is a contrast gusset (white)
View attachment 2526
It was the wording that threw me. The 'inverted center back' and 'contrast parchment' both took the standard and marketed them up to where I wasn't sure if they were talking about what I knew, or some other shit they'd concocted.

Sartodi does make a good point though. What the fuck is going on with the vent in that diagram?
 
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