the dark side of Florsheim Imperial Kenmoor v cleat wingtips - an investigation

[The Shooman]

Have you ever wondered why the older Florsheims used the heavily nailed heels on the double soled wingtips?

One big reason was because those gunboats used a solid piece of plastic directly under the top part of the heal. In order to make the leather top part stick on they needed to use lots of nails to attach it to the plastic heel.

If you look at most Florsheim you will find the heel attached to be plastic! Underneath that plastic is the leather sole attached. Even the shoes made in the 1950's have this, and indeed some other 1950's gunboat manufacturers have plastic heels also.

Florsheim for some strange reason wanted to cut costs on such a beautiful shoe, so they made the weird decision to use plastic in the major part of the heel, BUT they encountered a problem, that is...the top part of the heel would come unstuck, so they ended up using multiple nails in the heal to attach it solidly to the plastic underneath.

Now, according to this article the Kenmoors that used this famous heel were first made in 1958, so what did the gunboat heels look like in the 1940's and before? Were they heavily nailed, and when did Florsheim first start using plastic in their heels?
http://vcleat.com/florsheim-model-numbers-1950s-90s/


Of course you will see some gunboats with an all leather heel, but me thinks these were cobblers replacing the plastic heels with leather after a repair job was done. Many old pics do indeed show plastic heels. All my old Florsheim Imperial v cleat wingtips have plastic heels...they look like leather, but when studied carefully they are indeed plastic.

The investigation continues.The theory is that those multiple nails solely exist to attach the top lift to the plastic so it can grip properly. There is lots of evidence to support this idea, and the only way to really dispute this idea is to find an NOS model that uses those multiple nails with a leather layered heel. I am really starting to think that those multiple nails exist solely for this reason, to make it easier to attach the top lift to the plastic heel.

 

[The Shooman]

O.k...looking at some old pics l have, Florsheim did use a row of nails on their 1955 hand welted gunboat, but is the heel plastic or leather?...hard to say looking at this pic.


Also, notice how well secured the storm welt (L welt) is secured against the upper on the hand welted shoe below compared to the silly storm welts (t welts) Florsheim used on the goodyear welted shoes after the 1950's. It was a real storm welt...kept the water out, where-as most of the guboats you see by Florsheim used silly t welts that were machine attached from the inside instead of the outside like a real storm welted shoe should be. Alden and AE are made in the silly way also, they use the silly t welts.

What l need to do is ask my good friend to stick a few pins in his 40's and 50's Florsheims with multi nailed heels to see if the heels are plastic or leather.


But evenstill....many shoes had multiple nails around the heels in those days (see above), but none to my knowledge had two rows of those heavy slugs put into them. So possibly after 1955 when they started making the Kenmoor in 1958 they started to use those heavy slugged heels with plastic as the base.

Just thinking out a loud here. It's possible, but we need to find solid evidence. I'll try and get back to this thread.

 

[fxh]

I would have guessed the nails are like refined city hobnails - and the V cleat - to stop wear?

 

[prince nez]

Why would they use a plastic heel to save a bit of money and then use twice as many (presumably expensive) brass nails to secure the top lift to the plastic bit? Surely there was some other reason to use plastic than cost.

 

[The Shooman]

I would have guessed the nails are like refined city hobnails - and the V cleat - to stop wear?

But they don't help slow down wear. My heel wore down quickly on the florsheims, AND my Cleverley bespoke solid steel heel piece (thick and solid) wore down much faster than my normal shoe heels.

Why would they use a plastic heel to save a bit of money and then use twice as many (presumably expensive) brass nails to secure the top lift to the plastic bit? Surely there was some other reason to use plastic than cost.

That is the big question...why would they use a plastic heel piece to save a little bit of money??? Maybe the money saved over mass production of these shoes was more than we think.

When you use synthetics in various parts of the shoes, it is much more difficult to keep those pieces attached because those materials don't provide much traction. Since this is the situation, using the usual amount of nails probably wasn't enough to keep the heel secure so they used lots of nails.

Surely there was some other reason to use plastic than cost.

There would be no common sense reason to use plastic other than cost saving measures, and hence it is one of the great wonders in shoo making history.

 

[Great White Snark]

Who cares?

The amount of genuine NOS vintage Florsheims kicking around now must be severely depleted and the new ones are made in India rubbish so the whole topic is an exercise in futility for everyone other than a tiny niche of shoe nerds.

 

[The Shooman]

Who cares?

The amount of genuine NOS vintage Florsheims kicking around now must be severely depleted and the new ones are made in India rubbish so the whole topic is an exercise in futility for everyone other than a tiny niche of shoe nerds.

I am sure this issue would be of interest to the many shoo nerds out there, but it is a case of them finding the information at this forum. Maybe some will find this golden nugget of info, but maybe many won't. Regardless, l think this exposure would raise many eyebrows if they were to come across this info.

This golden nugget has been planted here just in case. Original posts and golden nuggets make forums great. Groupthink makes forums tired and dead.

 

[The Shooman]

Lots of Florsheims with plastic heels in this blog including these green 1960's pair:
http://vcleat.com/florsheim-imperial-kenmoor-93633-forest/

from this blog:
http://vcleat.com/florsheim-long-wing-models/


I must admit that l am thoroughly enjoying my v cleat longwings in recent weeks. Really comfortable and stunning. Trying to wear my tan pair once a week lately.

 

[fxh]

How do you find the sizing?

 

[The Shooman]

How do you find the sizing?

In the heel area it will have size and width.

Last night l polished up my black Florshiem v cleat longwings with moisterizer. They have never been worn and are in mint NOS condition with the untouched wood stained soles. Would be almost impossible to find unworn pairs in regular sizes now.

A friend found one NOS pair in the back of an old Atlanta shop. He contacted me and said they were in my size. I said to post `em immediately.

 

[fxh]

The Shooman - I meant how does it compare to standard UK sizing? I'd like a pair of Imperial Longwings but I'm wary of sizing

 

[The Shooman]

The Shooman - I meant how does it compare to standard UK sizing? I'd like a pair of Imperial Longwings but I'm wary of sizing

An 8D American Florsheim Imperial would be a 7E in English sizing. Yes, the Imperials run true to size.

 

[fxh]

So straight one size down. I'ma 9F in UK so I'd be a 10 in Imperials?

 

[The Shooman]

So straight one size down. I'ma 9F in UK so I'd be a 10 in Imperials?

yep

 

[The Shooman]

Here is a video that confirms what l have been saying about the dark side of Florsheim Imperial v cleat shoos. Corners cut by using plastic heels on numerous models, and Steve talks about this. Even some 1950's American shoos used plastic heel, see 18:26...black plastic heels underneath the toplift. There are probably other parts of the videos which expose plastic heels, but l haven't watched the entire video yet.


Another thing confirmed is what my cobbler always told me; numerous older shoes didn't have an attached feather, rather they dig a feather out of the leather insole (no gemming failure), attached gemming and then stitched the welt to it. Numerous Imperials did it this way (more labour intensive), but numerous imperials also used an attached plastic feather covered in gemming tape in later years.

See circled part in red. The insole is cut from the edge and inner area creating a ridge (feather) out of leather, similar to how bespoke shoemakers do it. In later years the factories got lazy and just stuck on a feather instead of spending the time to carve it out.

Haven't watched all the video yet.