The knitwear thread

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Rushmore

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WARNING

Cordings have re-labeled their sized and "M" now fits like "S"

(Same goes for the suits; shirts unchanged)
 

walker

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That is where I get my Dachstein. Sweaters, mitts, gloves. Nice guy to deal with
did a quick research on the rabenhaupt business. looks like they do private-label for certain purveyors. the listing for his own business(rabenhaupt) only offers gloves, sarfs, caps and small accessories, no sweaters.

do the items have a label from the dachstein brand? btw, it is a two hours ride from my place.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

random question.

does this label indicate anything good, or is it a sub-line from the real stuff?

pringle.jpg
 

The Shooman

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When l see those Pringle 200 years it is like kryptonite to superman, it makes me immediately avoid them. If Johnstons of Elgin still make them then they are going to be o.k, but far from the real deal stuff. Even when you look at the placket on this below it looks so weak and looks to be no longer reinforced with grossgrain on the back. This tells me that cost cutting is going on, and they apparently don't use the top notch inner mongolian cashmere either because they want to cut costs, instead they choose chinese cashmere. I note that Johnstons of Elgin cashmere can also pill moderately and is very soft, so l conclude that the cheaper cashmere is quite processed and the fibers are shorter than they should be. When l see Pringle 200 years l see marketing being used to sell an average product while relying on their former reputation for excellence. Anyway, here is the Pringle placket, it say it all. This is not the hallmark of luxury, however l applaud their efforts for continuing to make cashmere knitwear in Scotland.


All of the Scottish cashmere is cost cutting these days imo. 12 years ago one could buy $1,500 GBP 6 ply cashmere cardigans from Ballantyne, but these days the most costly 12 plys are only 950 GBP. This tells me that cost cutting must be an issue.


Alan Paine cashmere is no longer made in China.

Another interesting thing l noticed is that it is now too expensive to produce Alan Paine cashmere jumpers in China, they now make them on an island just off Africa where the wages are far below that of China. The wages are so low in Madagascar that they make chinese agriculture workers look rich in comparison.

Medium skilled workers in Madagascar roughly earn $70 - $110 US per month where-as Chinese farm workers (lowest paid in China) roughly earn $420 US per month.
https://wageindicator.org/salary/li...ing-wage-series-january-2018-country-overview
https://www.statista.com/statistics/278350/average-annual-salary-of-an-employee-in-china-by-region/

The poverty in rate in Madagascar is 70%
The Poverty rate in China has dropped from 88% in 1981 to 6.5% in 2012.

The point is that China is too expensive to manufacture in now and Africa is becoming more popular for mass manufacturing. An icon in the footwear made the prediction that mass produced footwear would also be made in Africa.

Even BMW are sourcing countries of cheap labour costs and are now going to manufacture in China, and they are also known for manufacturing there cars in India.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...n-to-boost-production-in-china-amid-trade-war
https://evoindia.com/bmw-x3-gen-iii-now-made-in-india/

The point is that luxury has lots it's luster and mediocrity rules. Cheap mass produced production with brand names sells! Off shore production shouldn't mean a lower quality product, but it seems to be nearly always the case.

 
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walker

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copied that. many thanks

When l see those Pringle 200 years it is like kryptonite to superman, it makes me immediately avoid them. If Johnstons of Elgin still make them then they are going to be o.k, but far from the real deal stuff. Even when you look at the placket on this below it looks so weak and looks to be no longer reinforced with grossgrain on the back. This tells me that cost cutting is going on, and they apparently don't use the top notch inner mongolian cashmere either because they want to cut costs, instead they choose chinese cashmere. I note that Johnstons of Elgin cashmere can also pill moderately and is very soft, so l conclude that the cheaper cashmere is quite processed and the fibers are shorter than they should be. When l see Pringle 200 years l see marketing being used to sell an average product while relying on their former reputation for excellence. Anyway, here is the Pringle placket, it say it all. This is not the hallmark of luxury, however l applaud their efforts for continuing to make cashmere knitwear in Scotland.


All of the Scottish cashmere is cost cutting these days imo. 12 years ago one could buy $1,500 GBP 6 ply cashmere cardigans from Ballantyne, but these days the most costly 12 plys are only 950 GBP. This tells me that cost cutting must be an issue.


Alan Paine cashmere is no longer made in China.

Another interesting thing l noticed is that it is now too expensive to produce Alan Paine cashmere jumpers in China, they now make them on an island just off Africa where the wages are far below that of China. The wages are so low in Madagascar that they make chinese agriculture workers look rich in comparison.

Medium skilled workers in Madagascar roughly earn $70 - $110 US per month where-as Chinese farm workers (lowest paid in China) roughly earn $420 US per month.
https://wageindicator.org/salary/li...ing-wage-series-january-2018-country-overview
https://www.statista.com/statistics/278350/average-annual-salary-of-an-employee-in-china-by-region/

The poverty in rate in Madagascar is 70%
The Poverty rate in China has dropped from 88% in 1981 to 6.5% in 2012.

The point is that China is too expensive to manufacture in now and Africa is becoming more popular for mass manufacturing. An icon in the footwear made the prediction that mass produced footwear would also be made in Africa.

Even BMW are sourcing countries of cheap labour costs and are now going to manufacture in China, and they are also known for manufacturing there cars in India.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...n-to-boost-production-in-china-amid-trade-war
https://evoindia.com/bmw-x3-gen-iii-now-made-in-india/

The point is that luxury has lots it's luster and mediocrity rules. Cheap mass produced production with brand names sells! Off shore production shouldn't mean a lower quality product, but it seems to be nearly always the case.

 

The Shooman

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Got a top prize jumper in orange. It's a 1980's Ballantyne and only worn once apparently. Check this rascal out!


I've been chasing a quality orange cashmere v neck for years. I once tried to snag a stunning orange 1960's Pringle but I failed in my attempt. Now l have the big daddy.


btw, my top Scottish cashmere is miles ahead of my purple Alan Paine made-in-England cashmere jumper. The Alan Paine is thinner and less impressive overall, but it is still nice.
https://www.dressedwell.net/threads/the-knitwear-thread.2454/page-12#post-227063
 
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The Shooman

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Shooey gets the ultimate BIG daddy!!!

Finding Hermes' made-in-Scotland cashmere jumpers is extremely rare, and finding these in turtlenecks are pretty much impossible, yet l found my grail piece and was prepared to pay big bucks if l needed too. Last week l located the ultimate Hermes masterpiece in signiture orange. This is from the days when the cashmere jumpers were still true luxury....likely the 1980's and made by Ballantyne imo. Check this out:



Even the more recent Hermes made-in-Scotland cashmere jumpers are better than any of the other recently made highend jumpers l have ever seen . The modern Hermes' are thick and spongy and luxurious and don't really pill and blow everything else out of the water. Eventhough the really top old Scottish makers don't make them anymore, there must be some Scottish company that makes them to very high standards....far higher than anything else.

My top two BIG daddies
1). Ballantyne 6 ply cardigan (a real thick heavy weight)
2). Hermes orange cashmere turtleneck (above).

Both are as rare as hen's teeth.


Other BIG daddies
3). Ballantyne dark green cashmere turtleneck 1970's
4). Ballantyne dark blue cashmere turtleneck 1970's
 
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aristoi bcn

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I've ordered 6-7 pieces of second hand Ballantyne in the last year and the problem has been that some pieces (3) came with evident signs of having been washed in warm water leading the knit shrink and thus to be very dense and inelastic (apart from having measurements quite off for its sized tag) Others look like they have been always washed by hand in cold water.
 

The Shooman

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I've ordered 6-7 pieces of second hand Ballantyne in the last year and the problem has been that some pieces (3) came with evident signs of having been washed in warm water leading the knit shrink and thus to be very dense and inelastic (apart from having measurements quite off for its sized tag) Others look like they have been always washed by hand in cold water.
Rarely will these cashmere jumpers ever be the size they are advertised. It's always essential to get two measurements as a minimum or not buy from the seller at all:

- pit to pit
- top to bottom

Sometimes they can be inelastic at the bottom due to washing in hot water, but all of mine are o.k except for a pink 1960's Lyle & Scott.

Also, some of the sellers of the best cashmere items never provided measurements and ignored my requests for measurements or never wanted to send overseas, but sometimes things are not meant to be. I missed this CLASSIC John Laing that was a 1970's and unworn because the lady didn't want to send it to Oz. I would have given her heaps more money for it, but she still refused. I was spitting chips so badly. It would have fit perfectly. I have missed many gems this way, and even the Hermes above was looking iffy because the seller wouldn't answer my messages for almost a week.



The dark truth of buying old Ballantyne and Lyle & Scott cashmere

* old cashmere can sometimes become brittle. I've had 4 pieces of top 1960's - 1970's Ballantyne and Lyle & Scott cashmere become brittle in a really small spot (just a stitch or two), and one of these pieces was a brand new 70's Ballantyne. This tells me it is not necessarily dry cleaning etc which can make it brittle, it is AGE!!! So these old luxury cashmere jumpers can have a downside, but it is worth the risk because most of the 100 + cashmere pieces l have are perfect.

* the other downside can be that some people mistreat (dry clean or wash in hot water) their cashmere so the quality is not as good as it could be. Occasionally some cashmere pieces can be very thin, and sometimes cashmere pieces can be extraordinary, but most of the time the pieces will be very good.


Has it been worth buying vintage cashmere?
Has it been worth buying vintage Scottish cashmere from the old luxury houses? You bet your sweet boots it has!!!!! The jumpers add colour to my wardrobe and most jumpers are good quality. I have pretty much all the colours now and l really enjoy my knitwear. Orange was the last colour l needed to get.
 

fxh

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I've ordered 6-7 pieces of second hand Ballantyne in the last year and the problem has been that some pieces (3) came with evident signs of having been washed in warm water leading the knit shrink and thus to be very dense and inelastic (apart from having measurements quite off for its sized tag) Others look like they have been always washed by hand in cold water.
I’m pretty sure you can stretch wool backa bit
 

fxh

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Soak item in bath, flat in lukewarm water and hair shampoo or conditioner, or even special mild wool wash. Gently lay item flat on towel. Gently roll towel to get rid of excess water. Keep item damp. Ley flat on dry towel and gently pull stretch various parts.
 

fxh

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If you are worried. Buy a cheap old wool jumper from an op shop (thrift store USA, charity shop Uk) and practice.
 

The Shooman

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Showman, what's your take on this?

View attachment 31492

This is an interesting one, but l have seen a few labels like that one. It looks like the 1950's labels before they obtained the royal warrant, but it is not! The 1950's labels always read made-in-Scotland, and if they were still made in Scotland the jumpers certainly would not have made-in-inner-Mongolia written on them.

This is really interesting because in more recent times the jumpers were made in Scotland by Johnstons of Elgin, but maybe those times have passed and they want to cost cut and have things moved near China. It would make more sense for a company to go from manufacturing in Scotland to Mongolia rather the other way around, and when l look at the Pringle website it does seem to be the case. No-where on the site does it mention that Pringle is made-in-Scotland. Pringle tries to give the impression it is Scottish knitwear, but it no longer is IMO.

To me, this jumper is probably typical of many cheap knitwear, it's all about cost cutting and manufacturing in countries where it is cheap to do so, so l am guessing this type of jumper will pill and lose it's shape easily.

Avoid!

Note: it's almost like a trick where they want people to think the cashmere comes from inner Mongolia, but cashmere that comes from Inner Mongolia is never labelled in such a way.
 

The Shooman

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Right? Hoping that a buyer's mind will make a (false) connection! Crafty bastards.
Yes, imo they do that in a number of ways.

Pringle marketing

They want people to think the following:
- Pringle cashmere is made-in-Scotland
- they use inner Mongolian cashmere of the highest quality
(top quality)


Pringle reality
The reality is likely quite different however.
- Pringle is made using cheap labour in Mongolia that don't have traditional knowhow of highend jumper manufacturing, and steps in quality making are likely skipped to cut costs
- they probably use mass grown chinese cashmere that is inferior to inner Mongolian cashmere for various reasons including hand harvesting cashmere v's machine harvesting and other factors.
(questionable quality)

---000---
All the Pringle advertising is all fluff marketing now. It's all about it's glorious history and Pringle 200 years blah blah blah. I say to them..."o.k Pringle, show us your made-in-Scotland tags". They won't do it because they don't want people to know the reality.


Remember this is just my understanding and opinion.
 
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fxh

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Shooey your analysis has a ring of believability about it , even if not based on direct evidence. It fits with much of what we know about the clothing, and other, industries.
 

The Shooman

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I bought a vintage Braemar made-in-Scotland cashmere turtleneck last week.



Hermes cashmere revisited
I got my chocolate brown Hermes cashmere polo this week, and it is clearly the best quality cashmere polo l have ever owned by far. I have a 1960's Pringle with mother-of-pearl buttons (excellent), modern day made-in-Italy Paul Stuart with plastic buttons (reasonable), modern day William Lockie with plastic buttons (decent), but the Hermes is thick and dense and solid and obviously made to last decades and it also has nice mother of pearl buttons. I can see why they are charging close to $2,000 USD for these. The one l got is perfect. Nothing is made to the Hermes quality, it is different from all the other cashmere out there these days because it is robust. It's true luxury.


I notice the exact same one has been listed for $1,200 USD for a used one.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hermes-Men...-XL/163446619299?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144
 

The Shooman

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Shooey gets the ultimate BIG daddy!!!

Finding Hermes' made-in-Scotland cashmere jumpers is extremely rare, and finding these in turtlenecks are pretty much impossible, yet l found my grail piece and was prepared to pay big bucks if l needed too. Last week l located the ultimate Hermes masterpiece in signiture orange. This is from the days when the cashmere jumpers were still true luxury....likely the 1980's and made by Ballantyne imo. Check this out:



Even the more recent Hermes made-in-Scotland cashmere jumpers are better than any of the other recently made highend jumpers l have ever seen . The modern Hermes' are thick and spongy and luxurious and don't really pill and blow everything else out of the water. Eventhough the really top old Scottish makers don't make them anymore, there must be some Scottish company that makes them to very high standards....far higher than anything else.
This is the best knitwear l have ever owned. This turtleneck is amazing. It is thick and solid and plush, and luxurious beyond words. The styling is past anything l have ever owned, the turtleneck is extra high and solid and makes a real statement. It is truly unique and my favourite cashmere item without any doubt! I feel so lucky to have this. I shall wear this with a navy double breasted custom blazer with brass buttons and/or also a navy peacoat.

If the world had these types of turtlenecks available it could be a magnificent world. Would actually be worth the retail price. Worth paying more to get something which is perfect! Wayyy too seductive too.
 

The Shooman

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I got this wonderful thick cozy soft cashmere long sleeved polo the other day. The pictures don't do it justice, but in the flesh it is a work of art. It is a beautiful chocolate brown with a nice casual pattern. It is thick like a 4 ply would be.

It is good when bad photos are taken because some of those are the best buys and surprises. What can look ugly or run down can turn out to be the most beautiful quality items. This piece was for sale for about 8 months but no-one wanted to buy it because the photos made it look bad, + the price was high, but it was exactly my measurements and I thought l would take the risk and buy it.

Burberry's by Ballantyne 1980's
Ballantyne - Burberry cashmere polo.jpg


This and the brown Hermes polo with the bad photos were some of the best buys ever. Both are stunning in real life and very high quality.


why l buy cashmere polos
I buy them to wear on those cool Autumn and Spring mornings and evenings. They are perfect for that. I shall wear the Burberry/Ballantyne alot along with the Hermes because both are quite thick.
 

The Shooman

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Have you got a Cashmere blanket for the cat?
They have broken too many house rules like laying on my sprouting unit blanket outside under the porch (a big no no), so no, cashmere will not be forthcoming for them.

A glimpse of some extremely rare vintage (new with tags) Ballantyne 4 ply cashmere jumpers.


]

Maybe just as well they don't fit me. They cost a pretty penny. The green one is asking $845.15 USD.
 

ballmouse

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Is that the vintage Ballantyne label? I thought that was the label used briefly by the new/current owners right before they moved production to Italy.
 

The Shooman

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Is that the vintage Ballantyne label? I thought that was the label used briefly by the new/current owners right before they moved production to Italy.
You are right. It is not the vintage label, but the one they used before moving production to ltaly. I usually try to avoid that label. I was wrong to call it vintage.
 
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The Shooman

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I don't know if you all remember Bamford and Sons, but they produced some of the best cashemere sweaters I've owend
I don't know them, but they are supposed to be very good.


Was lucky enough to snag a vintage unworn Pringle cashmere turtleneck. It is 1960/70's.
Pringle cashmere turtleneck new 1.jpg Pringle cashmere turtleneck new 2.jpg
https://www.imgrumweb.com/hashtag/vintagepringle

The fellow was also selling a green turtleneck that was also unworn, but l missed this one.
Pringle 1980's cashmere green turleneck new 1.jpg



Folks and Pringle
A deskgram account dedicated to the Pringle jumper and the folks that wear them. I am surprised to see that regular folks wear them. Even one kid on a BMX bike is wearing one.
https://deskgram.net/explore/tags/PringleJumper
 
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The Shooman

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I got really lucky tonight.

Ballantyne Bordeaux 3 ply cashmere turtleneck. Unworn old stock.
Ballantyne Bordeaux turtleneck 3 ply 1.jpg Ballantyne Bordeaux turtleneck 3 ply 2.jpg Ballantyne Bordeaux turtleneck 3 ply 3.jpg


Interestingly enough, there was also a bloke who recently sold over a dozen vintage made-in-Scotland cashmere turtlenecks that had never been worn. :bigtears:
 

Thruth

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aristoi bcn

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I washed a new Drumohr shetlandish pullover in the washmachine in the short program, coldest water, and it shrinked. Is that normal? Coldest water in the machine is not like washing by hand? me no understand.
 

Thruth

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I washed a new Drumohr shetlandish pullover in the washmachine in the short program, coldest water, and it shrinked. Is that normal? Coldest water in the machine is not like washing by hand? me no understand.
It's the agitation of the washing machine that will cause shrinkage even in a cold wash.
 

Thruth

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Never heard about that before...
yup. temperature, agitation, alkalinity of detergent can all result in the shrinkage. Even agitating by hand too vigorously ion cold water can result in some shrinkage. When you knit wool fabric it undergoes fulling to close up the fabric and make it more dense but softer. It is done by agitating the wool. That's what the shrinking really is. There is always more shrinkage left in it depending on what caused the original shrinkage and how much. looser knits more. Fun fact, it used to be done by treading on the wool soaked in vats of urine. For days.
 
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