The Trump Presidency

Pimpernel Smith

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that's actually not "left", but instead this facade of liberalism which is really neo-liberalism personified.
Yes, but the so called ''Left'' has become corrupted and infiltrated to the extent it is impossible to distinguish between the true left i.e. standing-up for, increasing access to education and the lot of the industrialized and marginalized working class and this snobbish neo-liberal elite looking to secure their sinecures in the oligarchy for them and their offspring or partners whilst denigrating their traditional constituency as under-educated, over-privileged and unworthy of their new more fashionable constituencies. Or particularly in the UK, sending their kids to the best private schools money can buy, whilst insisting state schools are the way forward for the rest of us in public and debate.

Hence the adage: I didn't leave the Left/insert political party they left me.

Many of these activists and party members are the most snobbish and brand conscious, particularly when it comes to lesser watches like Longines, that simply don't cut the elite brand mustard. Queue ad hominem based on watch brands.

As in the UK, the progressive-Democrats will find the politics of intersectionality-hate, division, perceived intellectual/brand snobbishness and anti-Semitism despite MSM collusion and hyper-support will ultimately lead as with Corbyn's brand and soon The Squad types and their ilk into the dead-end chemical toilet of toxicity and irrelevance.
 

Journeyman

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BDS is the new version of the long tradition of targetting individuals for their jewishness. Where it does tolerate jews, they must denounce the state of Israel.
I honestly don't think that BDS is particularly productive or helpful.

However, any criticism of Israel is all too frequently shouted down as anti-Semitism, which is distinctly unhelpful. It's a quick and easy way to shut down any criticism of Israel. Yes, anti-Semitism is still a problem in countries around the world; yes, Israel is in a vulnerable situation and yes, it is entitled to defend itself - but does that entitle it to immunity from criticism? Is creating de facto ghettos for Palestinians the way to handle things? Perhaps even more so given Jewish history?


And as you are well aware, Israel is not the only country to benefit from military aid from the USA and nor are they the largest receipient.
True - as far as I'm aware, Israel is only the second-largest recipient. Afghanistan - a country invaded by the US with thousands of the US troops still on the ground - receives a higher amount of US military aid.
 

Fwiffo

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However, any criticism of Israel is all too frequently shouted down as anti-Semitism, which is distinctly unhelpful. It's a quick and easy way to shut down any criticism of Israel. Yes, anti-Semitism is still a problem in countries around the world; yes, Israel is in a vulnerable situation and yes, it is entitled to defend itself - but does that entitle it to immunity from criticism? Is creating de facto ghettos for Palestinians the way to handle things? Perhaps even more so given Jewish history?
I read somewhere that sub-Saharan Africans didn't cut off people's hands, limbs, and heads until the colonial Europeans came over and used it as a terror and control tactic. You reap what you sow.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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I honestly don't think that BDS is particularly productive or helpful.
Correct, but it does expose middle class anti-Semites on the left who wouldn't dream of espousing anti-Semite tropes in polite society.

I had one knocking on the door a couple of weeks ago looking for donations to Amnesty International. I said, I'm sorry, but I give extensively to a charity in the Dombass region of the Ukraine. But as she walked away, I said, oh you're Amnesty International I see....she came skipping back, so I asked her where she stood on Amnesty's position on BDS. To which she launched into a diatribe before I cut her off and told she wouldn't be getting any filthy lucre off my household. She snarled as she walked away. Likely I should have been more tactful as she is the mother one of our neighbours on the street.

I read somewhere that sub-Saharan Africans didn't cut off people's hands, limbs, and heads until the colonial Europeans came over and used it as a terror and control tactic. You reap what you sow.
That is utter nonsense and you should know it. Reminds me after 9/11 Noam Chomsky and Gore Vidal coming out with the moral equivalence that on the evidence the USA deserved it/had it coming in/in comparison the USA was slightly worse that Al Qaeda.

Of course, it could be the myth of the noble savage - so pure, so uncivilized as to not be able to do nasty things to survive.
 

Rambo

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Reminds me after 9/11 Noam Chomsky and Gore Vidal coming out with the moral equivalence that on the evidence the USA deserved it/had it coming in/in comparison the USA was slightly worse that Al Qaeda.
the US is FAR worse than Al Qaeda and its not even close. hell the body count alone has got to be in the multi-millions at this point.

Correct, but it does expose middle class anti-Semites on the left who wouldn't dream of espousing anti-Semite tropes in polite society.
so i'm clear on this - is being a BDS supporter in and of itself antisemitic or do you just find that it happens to correlate with people who are also then antisemites?
 

Thruth

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The American Left's
the US is FAR worse than Al Qaeda and its not even close. hell the body count alone has got to be in the multi-millions at this point.


so i'm clear on this - is being a BDS supporter in and of itself antisemitic or do you just find that it happens to correlate with people who are also then antisemites?
I think it is the latter. B.D.S. is built on the anti-apartheid movement but gives anti-semites and Israel-haters a place to live in a seemingly “positive” group.

German parliament passed a motion deeming it anti-Semitic.

 

Pimpernel Smith

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the US is FAR worse than Al Qaeda and its not even close. hell the body count alone has got to be in the multi-millions at this point.


so i'm clear on this - is being a BDS supporter in and of itself antisemitic or do you just find that it happens to correlate with people who are also then antisemites?
If Al Qaeda could get hold of an arsenal on the scale of America, they would by any definition of body counts be clear winners. Then you have the living death for women of Sharia law and you have the USA, which for all its faults, including the strategic saturation bombing of Vietnam/Lao/Cambodia, support of South American fascists, slavery and Jim Crow, remains a force that has delivered freedom and wealth that is almost unequaled in the rest of the world.

If you support BDS on the basis of understanding it's aims, strategy and tactics, then you are indeed anti-Semitic. Plenty see BDS as some nice fluffy middle class SJW organisation, but don't understand what it is about. That's why they need to be engaged and get them looking a bit deeper. I see the House in the US passed it's thumbs down verdict on BDS yesterday.

And still The Squad use the anti-Semitic trope that there is a moral equivalency with BDS to boycotting Nazi Germany.
 
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Journeyman

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If you support BDS on the basis of understanding it's aims, strategy and tactics, then you are indeed anti-Semitic. Plenty see BDS as some nice fluffy middle class SJW organisation, but don't understand what it is about. That's why they need to be engaged and get them looking a bit deeper.
My understanding - which could be wrong - is that the BDS movement is about applying pressure to Israel so that Israel stops building Jewish settlements in the occupied territories and improves its treatment of Palestinians and Israeli Arabs. What is it about or, rather, what do you think it is about?

Also, you haven't responded to my earlier point about how, on the one hand, it's fine for the US and other countries to apply widespread sanctions to countries such as North Korea, Iran or Venezuela, but it's not fine for people to advocate doing something much less to Israel. Why is that?

Let there be no doubt at all that anti-Semitism is bad. The Holocaust was appalling and I fervently hope that something similar never happens again (although human nature being what it is, and looking at Rwanda, Bosnia etc, I'm not filled with confidence).

However, what frustrates me - and it appears to be happening here, too - is that all too frequently criticism of Israel is immediately and reflexively tarred as anti-Semitism. It prevents discussion of actual issues. It's similar to someone like Trump claiming that to criticise the US is to be unpatriotic and that people who do so should "go back where they came from".

And still The Squad use the anti-Semitic trope that there is a moral equivalency with BDS to boycotting Nazi Germany.
I haven't heard that argument made before and it is a ridiculous comparison and a false equivalence, or false analogy. However, it's worth pointing out that simply because a comparison is ridiculous, does not make it anti-Semitic. It just makes it wrong.
 
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Pimpernel Smith

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My understanding - which could be wrong - is that the BDS movement is about applying pressure to Israel so that Israel stops building Jewish settlements in the occupied territories and improves its treatment of Palestinians and Israeli Arabs. What is it about or, rather, what do you think it is about?
There is the declared aim of that, then the dog whistles with the comparisons to Nazi Germany and South Africa under apartheid. Strategically, the aim is to isolate, de-legitimize and criminalize the state of Israel. It works on a zero sum game that Israel is 100% the aggressor and Israel alone must submit. That's why theocratic goons and thugs embrace it. And those on the left who should know better pretend they're engaged in some pseudo-humanitarianism.

Tactically: it targets jewish owned businesses here in Europe, proscribes visits of Israel academics, puts pressure on musicians and artists not to do concerts or exhibits there. That's anti-Semitic and straight out of the 1930s and probably why the German parliament declared it an anti-Semitic organisation.

Also, you haven't responded to my earlier point about how, on the one hand, it's fine for the US and other countries to apply widespread sanctions to countries such as North Korea, Iran or Venezuela, but it's not fine for people to advocate doing something much less to Israel. Why is that?
Refer to the above. People have a right to make individual decision to not buy products or to not frequent jewish owned business and the like, it doesn't make it morally right. And by the way, comparing Israel to North Korea, Iran or Venezuela is not apt.

Let there be no doubt at all that anti-Semitism is bad. The Holocaust was appalling and I fervently hope that something similar never happens again (although human nature being what it is, and looking at Rwanda, Bosnia etc, I'm not filled with confidence).

However, what frustrates me - and it appears to be happening here, too - is that all too frequently criticism of Israel is immediately and reflexively tarred as anti-Semitism. It prevents discussion of actual issues. It's similar to someone like Trump claiming that to criticise the US is to be unpatriotic and that people who do so should "go back where they came from".

I haven't heard that argument made before and it is a ridiculous comparison and a false equivalence, or false analogy. However, it's worth pointing out that simply because a comparison is ridiculous, does not make it anti-Semitic. It just makes it wrong.
Because the criticism is one sided and increasingly we find ourselves boxed into a claustrophobic environment based on moral relativism and blackmail which uses Nazi imagery to define Israel and we see other elements creeping in to self-censorship and proscribe language.

In Tlaib, Omar and AOC we see all the weapons that have come into place since the Rushdie affair: the grievance-privileged mentality, self-righteousness, self pity and the focus on America and her allies, especially Israel and the UK, as the source of all evil in the world.
 

Fwiffo

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Trump wants to pull all U.S. troops out of Afghanistan by 2020 election, officials say

"Trump, when asked to specify how many troops will be pulled out of Afghanistan, said Friday: 'We're reducing it. We've been there for 19 years. We're really serving as policemen. We could win Afghanistan in two days or three days or four days if we wanted, but I'm not looking to kill 10 million people.'"

Fact check: pretty sure it took more than 2, 3 or 4 days to rally the northern alliance to topple the Taliban in 2001 and that was when the entire world including Saddam Hussein was behind the US going into Afghanistan.
 

Dropbear

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Trump just admitted he’d use red flag laws to disarm political opponents.

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Meanwhile, rumour has it that the ATF, under instruction from the WH, is about to reclassify pistols with shoulder braces as short barrel rifles again - reversing one of Obama’s biggest pro gun legacies.
 

Fwiffo

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"The day 'was treated as a training (work) day with a guest speaker who happened to be the president,' Fisher said, adding the company does 'these several times a year with various speakers.'"

If only I could get paid training from the President every day!
 

Rambo

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Liberal media went crazy over this story.... Dems not taking the right direction.
Wait, what?

What would be the "right direction" in an instance where people are forced under threat of lost pay to watch this shithead?
 

Dropbear

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Walsh, Weld, Flake, Sanford and Kassich are all planning to challenge Trump in the primaries with Kristol and The Mooch creating anti-Trump super PACs. Popcorn.gif
 
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