When did dressing well acquire the stigma of effeminacy?

[Jan Libourel]

I was just re-reading one of my favorite books--the Heimskringla, the sagas of the kings of Norway, written about 1220 by Snorri Sturlasson. I was particularly reading the part about King Olaf Trygvasson, the greatest warrior-king of Norway. In addition to his incredible athletic and combative prowess, the author mentions that he was a "fine dresser." I regret not knowing old Norse, but in a number of other sagas characters are described as "dandies" (the term used by the translators). Now the Northmen, as we all know, were as macho a bunch of dudes as there ever were. (I dislike the term "Vikings," which always had connotations of criminality and was never an ethnic significator. Even Moors were described in the sagas as "vikings.") And King Olaf was about the most macho of the lot. The fine clothing of many of the heroes is described in detail in the sagas.

Throughout history, many extremely dangerous men were fond of adorning themselves well. In another forum, I recently cited Jim Bowie and Wild Bill Hickok, two of the deadliest men in American history. Both were well known as dandies, as were many other gunfighters on both sides of the law in the old West. Even a couple of generations ago, many notorious mobsters were noted for their elegant attire--not admirable characters, but certainly tough and dangerous. Many champion boxers were also fond of adorning themselves finely outside the ring. Let us bear in mind that that iconic exemplar of American masculinity John Wayne was a customer of Brioni.

So when and why did a fondness for turning oneself out well acquire the stigma of being, if not actually gay, at least effete and sissified? Back in the 1950s, my prep school was a wild and tough place, but we were also very clothes conscious. Did it happen before or after that time? I am curious about the "when" and "why" of this peculiar notion.

 

[doghouse]

The short answer: 30 years ago. Your cargo short wearing middle American driving his F350 to the mall Applebees says you're a sissy man.


FNB actually has quite a lot of good stuff about this phenomenon.

 

[prince nez]

I was particularly reading the part about King Olaf Trygvasson, the greatest warrior-king of Norway.

Ah yes, the great, great, great....great Aryan ancestor of Sartodinapoli.

 

[Lord Buckley]

I am not convinced that dressing well gives one the stigma of effeminacy, but dressing badly certainly can give this, if you turn yourself into a mincing, preening peacock.

In England by the 17th century you had the term fop, popinjay and macraroni to describe various hues of the male species who over dressed, spoke affectively and developed narcissistic and epicene tastes. So the origins are certainly from this time. And by the time you get to the second half of the 20th century you get the likes of Quentin Crisp being referred to as a dandy, when probably those other terms are more accurate. Also Oscar Wilde hijacked dandyism for the buggerers. Finally, you end with Sebastian Horsley in a failed attempt to reclaim danyism back to its source with his stylised pastiche of over exaggerated cartoon character costumes and hats, but the use opium remained authentic.

I also think the promotion of gay culture has something to do with this. In 1950's Soho in London a gay man would likely sport red pants and suede shoes, nothing else was needed to send the message. By the 1980s you've already been through the Village People look and you have the promotion that only gay men looked after their bodies and appearance and only gays wear pink.

So I think all these elements play into this and of course, you also get those who dress badly and poorly, for whom it plays into their hands to denigrate any potential alpha male threat who dresses well. Interestingly, I think nothing looks as effete on a man as a pair of cheap and nasty Ecco style shoes. It announces you haven't arrived and never will. Strictly beta time.

I was watching an episode of Frankie and Grace the other night and the Martin Sheen character is talking to one of his ex-bosses. The boss gets angry and says something like "I knew there was something very wrong with you when you started coming to work with fancy pocket handkerchiefs!"

 

[doghouse]

I am not convinced that dressing well gives one the stigma of effeminacy, but dressing badly certainly can give this, if you turn yourself into a mincing, preening peacock.

In England by the 17th century you had the term fop, popinjay and macraroni to describe various hues of the male species who over dressed, spoke affectively and developed narcissistic and epicene tastes. So the origins are certainly from this time. And by the time you get to the second half of the 20th century you get the likes of Quentin Crisp being referred to as a dandy, when probably those other terms are more accurate. Also Oscar Wilde hijacked dandyism for the buggerers. Finally, you end with Sebastian Horsley in a failed attempt to reclaim danyism back to its source with his stylised pastiche of over exaggerated cartoon character costumes and hats, but the use opium remained authentic.

I also think the promotion of gay culture has something to do with this. In 1950's Soho in London a gay man would likely sport red pants and suede shoes, nothing else was needed to send the message. By the 1980s you've already been through the Village People look and you have the promotion that only gay men looked after their bodies and appearance and only gays wear pink.

So I think all these elements play into this and of course, you also get those who dress badly and poorly, for whom it plays into their hands to denigrate any potential alpha male threat who dresses well. Interestingly, I think nothing looks as effete on a man as a pair of cheap and nasty Ecco style shoes. It announces you haven't arrived and never will. Strictly beta time.

I was watching an episode of Frankie and Grace the other night and the Martin Sheen character is talking to one of his ex-bosses. The boss gets angry and says something like "I knew there was something very wrong with you when you started coming to work with fancy pocket handkerchiefs!"

You are using a distinctly British lens to look at this, whereas Jan is talking about the current state in the US, which differs in significant ways. There's a good bit of overlap, but just the suggestion of having a care about one's appearance and grooming will open one up to all sorts of questions in America.

 

[Monkeyface]

You are using a distinctly British lens to look at this, whereas Jan is talking about the current state in the US, which differs in significant ways. There's a good bit of overlap, but just the suggestion of having a care about one's appearance and grooming will open one up to all sorts of questions in America.

It's funny how a lot of American men don't comb their hair. They just wake up and however weird their hair may look that's how they'll go about their day. It's the ultimate renunciation of taking care of one's appearance.

 

[Lord Buckley]

You are using a distinctly British lens to look at this, whereas Jan is talking about the current state in the US, which differs in significant ways. There's a good bit of overlap, but just the suggestion of having a care about one's appearance and grooming will open one up to all sorts of questions in America.

That can't be right, what about all these trunk shows and the likes in America? It must still be a major market, if not the market for the sartorially inclined.

 

[doghouse]

That can't be right, what about all these trunk shows and the likes in America? It must still be a major market, if not the market for the sartorially inclined.

It's a very top heavy market.

 

[Monkeyface]

If you can afford proper bespoke suits at 5k a pop you should have enough money that whatever the rest thinks doesn't matter much. If you don't have that F you money you shouldn't be buying those suits.

 

[güero]

Obviously this depends entirely on the definition of what constitutes being well dressed. If this is understood as understated/blending in/quality over appearence/care- or rather effortless/etc. I don't think any considers this effeminate - because nobody notices anything. What I believe is considered effeminate is any form of noticeable preoccupation with dressing, be it any type of peacocking/forced sprezz, talking about clothes/fashion, spending significant time buying/choosing clothes, etc. So the internet version of dressing well is definitely considered effeminate, and rightly so. I somehow can't imagine the great warrior king of Norway discussing with his warrior friends the splendid vintage cloth he found in some French barn that they plundered. Might be wrong about that, but it is hard to imagine.

 

[Jan Libourel]

^Actually, King Olaf might have. The Northmen were very into fine fabrics and clothing. Indeed, one Icelandic grandee was such a "dandy" that he was known as Olaf the Peacock. There are often detailed descriptions of how the heroes are dressed in the sagas. Here's a passage from Njal's Saga: "Skarpheddin...had on a blue kirtle and grey breeks and black shoes on his feet, coming high up on his leg; he had a silver belt about him...and a silken band round his brow, and his hair brushed behind his ears. He was the most soldier-like of men, and by that all men knew him." Grettir the Strong hunted down and killed a man responsible for ruining his fur cloak during a bear hunt. I am sure I could find other examples if I looked harder.

 

[formby]

In Britain, peacockery was acceptable for men until about the Regency. Brummell and his crew changed that. It carried on a little longer in France with the Incroyables but they became something of a laughing stock.

 

[doghouse]

Obviously this depends entirely on the definition of what constitutes being well dressed. If this is understood as understated/blending in/quality over appearence/care- or rather effortless/etc. I don't think any considers this effeminate - because nobody notices anything. What I believe is considered effeminate is any form of noticeable preoccupation with dressing, be it any type of peacocking/forced sprezz, talking about clothes/fashion, spending significant time buying/choosing clothes, etc. So the internet version of dressing well is definitely considered effeminate, and rightly so. I somehow can't imagine the great warrior king of Norway discussing with his warrior friends the splendid vintage cloth he found in some French barn that they plundered. Might be wrong about that, but it is hard to imagine.

In America, you would be incorrect.

Blending in involves shirts sans collo and shorts with superfluous pockets. And baseball caps.

 

[Lord Buckley]

^Actually, King Olaf might have. The Northmen were very into fine fabrics and clothing. Indeed, one Icelandic grandee was such a "dandy" that he was known as Olaf the Peacock. There are often detailed descriptions of how the heroes are dressed in the sagas. Here's a passage from Njal's Saga: "Skarpheddin...had on a blue kirtle and grey breeks and black shoes on his feet, coming high up on his leg; he had a silver belt about him...and a silken band round his brow, and his hair brushed behind his ears. He was the most soldier-like of men, and by that all men knew him." Grettir the Strong hunted down and killed a man responsible for ruining his fur cloak during a bear hunt. I am sure I could find other examples if I looked harder.

I think most of the epic poems, not just the sagas, are big on sartorial descriptions.

In Britain, peacockery was acceptable for men until about the Regency. Brummell and his crew changed that. It carried on a little longer in France with the Incroyables but they became something of a laughing stock.

There's also a class element to all this, as this famous photograph reveals:

The photograph may not be as candid as it presumes, as there's some speculation that the three "toughs" had been engaged by the photographer, but not the two "toffs". Although this is often interpreted as a defining image of the class system, it really is one about practical street clothing versus the Harrow public school uniform which was clearly archaic in 1937. The mockery on the working class boys faces is not one of class, but of the absurdity of the public school boys dress.

 

[güero]

^Actually, King Olaf might have. The Northmen were very into fine fabrics and clothing. Indeed, one Icelandic grandee was such a "dandy" that he was known as Olaf the Peacock.

Question would be why they were into that stuff. Again know nothing about them, but I assume men haven't changed that much over the centuries. So my guess is, they dressed like that because of status reasons, not because they were overly into clothes. Just like your average Sudanese warlord buys brand name MTM in the most garish (and useless) S5000 silk monstrosity w/ corresponding tie/shoes/etc. Of course if you're saying being "dandy" and "the peacock" carried a positive conotation in those days, that may well be.

In America, you would be incorrect.

Blending in involves shirts sans collo and shorts with superfluous pockets. And baseball caps.

I could be incorrect anywhere. Blending in depends on the immediate surroundings, so I'm sure there are ample possibilities to be "dressed well" in the internet CM sense in most western countries. However, blending in might have nothing to do with being dressed well, so who knows.

Apart from that I do not have the impression that dressing well is considered effeminate in my space and time, because no matter what subculture I have/had more or less insight to, being dressed well was always important and a prerequisite for being respected. So I think I disagree with the overall hypothesis.

 

[Fwiffo]

View attachment 21299

I remember this. Maybe from my uni textbooks.

 

[doghouse]

Question would be why they were into that stuff. Again know nothing about them, but I assume men haven't changed that much over the centuries. So my guess is, they dressed like that because of status reasons, not because they were overly into clothes. Just like your average Sudanese warlord buys brand name MTM in the most garish (and useless) S5000 silk monstrosity w/ corresponding tie/shoes/etc. Of course if you're saying being "dandy" and "the peacock" carried a positive conotation in those days, that may well be.


I could be incorrect anywhere. Blending in depends on the immediate surroundings, so I'm sure there are ample possibilities to be "dressed well" in the internet CM sense in most western countries. However, blending in might have nothing to do with being dressed well, so who knows.

Apart from that I do not have the impression that dressing well is considered effeminate in my space and time, because no matter what subculture I have/had more or less insight to, being dressed well was always important and a prerequisite for being respected. So I think I disagree with the overall hypothesis.

We will have to disagree on this premises then, as there are very few opportunities for dressing well outside the major metropolitan areas of the U.S. without inviting undue attention and a significant dearth of respect.

 

[carbooch]

Perhaps other men simply don't respect you.

We will have to disagree on this premises then, as there are very few opportunities for dressing well outside the major metropolitan areas of the U.S. without inviting undue attention and a significant dearth of respect.

 

[doghouse]

Perhaps other men simply don't respect you.

Well played new guy.

 

[Leitmotif]

Perhaps other men simply don't respect you.

Who do you think you are? doghouse is our top top resident elite with top top nomenklatura credentials. The KGB will visit you soon enough.

 

[viaattovannucci]

Speaking of effeminacy, see how the resident Latin@ Leitmotif pops out his hips when he poses for a selfie:

I sincerely hope that this was his preferred pronoun.

 

[QuandoDio]

Speaking of effeminacy, see how the resident Latin@ Leitmotif pops out his hips when he poses for a selfie:

View attachment 21309

I sincerely hope that this was his preferred pronoun.

Very effeminate for sure. Signs of a profanitor using his lips to signal to the world he is ready to receive...

 

[Scherensammler]

Speaking of effeminacy, see how the resident Latin@ Leitmotif pops out his hips when he poses for a selfie:

View attachment 21309

I sincerely hope that this was his preferred pronoun.

Wrong! Not a selfie. You bitted his trap.
Leitmotif just took compromising pictures of Minnie Mouse on the couch.

 

[Scherensammler]

Back on topic:
My guess is that it started when Western clothing manufacturers moved production to Eastern (European and Asian) countries.
My reasoning is that before that the people in charge had mostly a craft oriented background (pattern makers, tailors, clothing engineers), who were more concerned with make and fit first and look second.
Nowadays the job of the designer has become more important because the technical side was moved elsewhere (there has also been a decline of know-how in the clothing industry in general).
Both sectors of the fashion industry, design and advertising (including fashion magazines) are overrun by members of the gay/ lesbian community and have for years implemented their own tastes into #meanswear, especially when it comes to accessories.
Not to mention the pressure to "invent something new" 2 times a year. The changes in the actual outfits are mostly subtle, so the accessories (pocket squares, ties, scarves, (no) socks, shirt colours) need to change and/ or used in abundance.

Hm, makes me wonder, perhaps that is the secret of Passagio Cravatte's success: Not the so much the (questionable) quality, but the fact that they offer unusual patterns which offer a chance to stand out in the crowd.

 

[fxh]

Maybe it's the circles I mix in but I don't see much evidence that dressing well is seen to be "effeminate" - in itself a loaded term that I never fully understand.

I do however come across the remnants of an idea that seems to persist - mainly amongst women - that "Gay Men Know How To Dress" - I can't say the % of gay men that dress well is all that much better than straights in comparable industries

 

[formby]

Obviously this depends entirely on the definition of what constitutes being well dressed. If this is understood as understated/blending in/quality over appearence/care- or rather effortless/etc. I don't think any considers this effeminate - because nobody notices anything. What I believe is considered effeminate is any form of noticeable preoccupation with dressing, be it any type of peacocking/forced sprezz, talking about clothes/fashion, spending significant time buying/choosing clothes, etc. So the internet version of dressing well is definitely considered effeminate, and rightly so.[...]

I'm pretty much in agreement with this...

In fact, I think many menswear bloggers are worse than most females.

 

[Scherensammler]

We got contacted by menswear bloggers that were kind of starting, luckily none requested a free suit.
The set of questions they sent were pretty much all the same, which is why the articles they write are all the same.
Not to mention re-blogging or the good old copy and paste game with different pictures and pretend it's their genuine work.
Even the big names are starting to struggle to find something new to write about or get free suits (as there aren't a lot of new bespoke tailors starting their own company). They will likely have to exclusively shill for big fashions brands in the future.

 

[fxh]

We got contacted by menswear bloggers that were kind of starting, luckily none requested a free suit.
The set of questions they sent were pretty much all the same, which is why the articles they write are all the same.
Not to mention re-blogging or the good old copy and paste game with different pictures and pretend it's their genuine work.
Even the big names are starting to struggle to find something new to write about or get free suits (as there aren't a lot of new bespoke tailors starting their own company). They will likely have to exclusively shill for big fashions brands in the future.

The menswear blogging shilling scene is infinitesimal compared to the female "influencers" out there. Most of them do nothing more than cut and paste Press Releases from brand marketers.

Here in oz most men's fashion columns/pieces are written by sub 25 year old females who don't even have any idea of the history or analysis of women's fashion let alone men's.

 

[Lord Buckley]

Both sectors of the fashion industry, design and advertising (including fashion magazines) are overrun by members of the gay/ lesbian community and have for years implemented their own tastes into #meanswear, especially when it comes to accessories.

Perhaps this explains female cut jeans being sold as male ones?

I do however come across the remnants of an idea that seems to persist - mainly amongst women - that "Gay Men Know How To Dress" - I can't say the % of gay men that dress well is all that much better than straights in comparable industries

A lot of English women have this idea for some reason. One visit to Manchester's Gay Village will be enough to dismiss that myth.

 

[doghouse]

Perhaps this explains female cut jeans being sold as male ones?



A lot of English women have this idea for some reason. One visit to Manchester's Gay Village will be enough to dismiss that myth.

I'm not sure the gay village is representative of the gay populous write large. Outside San Francisco or Key West, the average gay male in America is certainly more well put together than us heteros and generally more subdued.

 

[formby]

I'm not sure the gay village is representative of the gay populous write large. Outside San Francisco or Key West, the average gay male in America is certainly more well put together than us heteros and generally more subdued.

Not sure about that in Britain. The Metrosexuals 'out-gayed' the gays...Moisturised to perfection.....errrr....or so I'm told...

 

[doghouse]

Not sure about that in Britain. The Metrosexuals 'out-gayed' the gays...Moisturised to perfection.....errrr....or so I'm told...

That's not better put together and certainly not more subdued.

Plus I consider them gay in spirit.

 

[formby]

That's not better put together and certainly not more subdued.

Plus I consider them gay in spirit.

I would say a lot of the Metro's were better dressed than the gays. It pissed a lot of the gay's off as I recall.

 

[doghouse]

I would say a lot of the Metro's were better dressed than the gays. It pissed a lot of the gay's off as I recall.

You clearly have a higher class of Metro

 

[formby]

You clearly have a higher class of Metro

We do, there was a bit of a backlash against metro's in the US...A fight back by Marlboro Man in his Jeep/Hummer. Hummersexuals, which is about as camp (with a capital 'C') as you can get. The kind of hyper-masculinity that the Village People wonderfully lampooned 30-odd years ago.

The US is the gayest country on earth...you invented Disco after all...

 

[Lord Buckley]

I thought cocaine invented disco?

Hopefully, the Manchester gay village is not representative of gay villages world wide, as it will be like the myth of lesbian porn for blokes is the reality. But then again is the version of gay culture that male heterosexuals have a myth or stereotype anyway?

As for the Metro's, well yes, they do exist and they do have a certain qualities than make those from outside of London suspect them as being at the very least bisexual. Indeed, I was at someone's place not so long back and things started to go the way that I had the feeling that I might be asked to join a threesome between this London chap and his missus. I exited pretty quick. You never can tell with the full on Metro.

 

[formby]

I thought cocaine invented disco?

Hopefully, the Manchester gay village is not representative of gay villages world wide, as it will be like the myth of lesbian porn for blokes is the reality. But then again is the version of gay culture that male heterosexuals have a myth or stereotype anyway?

As for the Metro's, well yes, they do exist and they do have a certain qualities than make those from outside of London suspect them as being at the very least bisexual. Indeed, I was at someone's place not so long back and things started to go the way that I had the feeling that I might be asked to join a threesome between this London chap and his missus. I exited pretty quick. You never can tell with the full on Metro.

The thing about the Metro was that he was rarely gay.

 

[doghouse]

I thought cocaine invented disco?

Hopefully, the Manchester gay village is not representative of gay villages world wide, as it will be like the myth of lesbian porn for blokes is the reality. But then again is the version of gay culture that male heterosexuals have a myth or stereotype anyway?

As for the Metro's, well yes, they do exist and they do have a certain qualities than make those from outside of London suspect them as being at the very least bisexual. Indeed, I was at someone's place not so long back and things started to go the way that I had the feeling that I might be asked to join a threesome between this London chap and his missus. I exited pretty quick. You never can tell with the full on Metro.

What did the missus look like?

 

[formby]

What did the missus look like?

LOL....I had exactly the same thought...!!!

 

[Jan Libourel]

I'm not sure the gay village is representative of the gay populous write large. Outside San Francisco or Key West, the average gay male in America is certainly more well put together than us heteros and generally more subdued.

I disagree with this. I worked from 1979 to 1993 in West Hollywood, aka "Boys' Town." In 1994 I moved to Long Beach, which has a very large gay and lesbian community. In fact, our current mayor is gay. I have long felt that the notion that gays are appreciably better dressers than straight men was a myth. Maybe once upon a time this was true, but I think that time is long gone...if it ever was the case.

As an aside, I went into an extremely popular restaurant here in Long Beach last night to get some takeout. My wife and I patronize it with some regularity. One man complimented me on my attire, whereupon, the proprietress proclaimed me "the best dressed man in Long Beach." In a city of almost a half-million, I feel sure that there must be some men who surpass me, but it was a nice compliment, nonetheless.