Let's Talk About Denim

Mauro said:
that's fair.
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I had to cut shit off. I'm just not shaped normally, and it was getting to the point where I had spent something like $500+ on returning shit. So, I figured I'd just do without until I could get somewhere that I could try crap on.
 
Mauro - when you get them, let me know and we'll start a Clothes Construction thread for you. This shit is fascinating to me and I definitely want to highlight it for you.

Aside from that - what's your take on Gustin and their continuing Kickstarter-style experiment?
 
What do you guys think about Borrelli jeans? I bought a year ago some Hugo Boss and Purificación Gracía jeans, but the price I paid for them is nothing close to the Borrelli ones... the Borrelli's are way cheaper!
 
I've handled some RRL denim in the past, seems like good stuff - especially when you can snag something decent from RLOutlets. Will have to look into that, RandomKoreanDude

My big forays into Japanese stuff has been Pure Blue Japan and Momotaro. I liked both for different reasons, but they are blatantly expensive for what is essentially pairs of casual pants. APCs I recently tried on seem to fit well, but if it's just hype then meh. FWIW, one of my longest standing pairs is a 4 year old pair of raw GAP skinnys from 2009 production (back when the denim and details were still decent). They've held up very well, not faded much at all, and I still really enjoy wearing them. On sale they were like $45, so can't really beat that.

If I continue strongly in denim I've considered both 3Sixteen and Rogue Territory. And whatever will be picked up off the B/S - let somebody else's sizing mistake take the bite out of the price.
 
I think we need some fit pics up in hurr...

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Fit, and subsequently evo.

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Quote from the JCrew thread over there... Haaiiiii Mauro

"I don't know as far as comparing them to APC, but I've been working on breaking in a pair of the 484 Raw since December. Worn them maybe 75 times with no washes and they are tough. Great quality though and you can tell they are durable. Currently in the freezer for a few days."
 
Japan Blue 400sp. Under the same parent company as Momotaro. A sub-200 brand though, and I've enjoyed them. Just wish they were a tad bigger.
 
Great fades. I wish I could get my jeans to last that long. I'm going to retire my current pair of 501's soon. The hole in the crotch is getting bigger...
 
b1os said:
Zé Ferreira Zé Ferreira , so, I know that you are or at least have been of the never/rarely-washing-your-jeans-for-better-fades mindset too. ("Pure Blue Japan xx009s, 9 months of wear, 2 washes, 1 soak") If you were to buy a pair of new raw denim today, would you wash it from the very beginning or do you still think that the ageing is superior when worn over an extended timeframe unwashed? If the former, what changed your mind?

Jeans look great btw. I've seen a similar pair on sale a few weeks ago. Couldn't get over the white stripes on the back pocket though.
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b1os, I a firmly in the "wash them" minority. Even at my most sheep-like stage w/ those PBJ's, three exposures to water in 9 months was way more than recommended. :hatersgonnahate:

But since then I've become even more convinced that there isn't a direct causal link between "not washing" and "great fadezz." It could just be because of my personal anatomy/physiology too, but I've never coaxed fades out of my jeans that others have without any water whatsoever. I just don't understand where the indigo goes if it's not being rinsed away, or displaced by friction.

My standard procedure now has taken to encompass both sizing and washing. 1st, SFers were buying their jeans way too tight in general. I subsequently realized that with a slightly looser cut, the denim fabric has more opportunity to rub against itself (thus hopefully fading). When people buy denim tighter and tighter, it pulls more over the body and doesn't have the natural opportunity to rub against itself as the wearer moves. While people are all wanting to size down three for whatever cut, regardless of their body type (read Naked & Famous fanboys), you be both uncomfortable and the denim won't have a chance to work on itself.

Step 1.5) Purchase your denim fitting for the thigh. The waistband can always be manipulated by either stretching or a belt. The thighs generally won't give. You can have something fit great in the waist and everywhere else, but if it's too tight in the thigh, it generally makes users uncomfortable enough to move pricey denim on at a loss. Find your cut or purchase your size based on the thigh measurement.

2nd) Wash them, get them wet, don't baby them, etc. Whenever I get a pair of jeans now, in light of previous dollars drained by sizing mistakes and needing to flip them to recoup, just purchase them bigger in the first place (step 1), and then when you get them give them a hot wash on gentle. Let them hang dry. This will sure up any sizing issues for sure and then you're good to go and wear them without worrying that they can never be wet, lest your balls burst forth as the fabric shreds apart. Live in them, get them dirty, wash them. When I say wash, you don't need to throw them in an industrial machine spinning the life out of them and blasting them with hot water. Just throw in some woolite and let the machine jostle them for a few minutes. Then hangdry them again (which now can be done without fear because of the initial soak when you bought them! :)lulz-78:)

So, in summation, I've always been closer to the "wash your jeans" side of the debate, but have moved further in that direction with SF-experience.

Mauro said:
If you want a more in depth look into Momotaro you need to speak with "Jay" at Blue owl workshop or www.blueowl.us . Jay has toured the Momotaro factories and works pretty close with them. He would know better than me.
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Yes, I've been friends w/ Jay for a while and have purchased Momos from him before. I'm glad the brand gets your experienced mark of approval, even despite the price point.
 
^^ No kidding, and those ankle huggers. I can't even troll this thread without :holyfeck: and :jchan-80:
 
patrickBOOTH said:
I'd love to see some "grown-up" fit pics of guys in denim. People seem to squeeze into jeans. Can jeans look good without being ball huggers? I must say, I am not optimistic.
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LVC 1947 501

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PBJ xx009

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Momotaro 702

Loose enough? I'd prequalified my fit pic above saying that I thought they were generally a bit too tight.
 
Gotta admit, when I see all these before-after fade pics, I'm always left thinking I prefer the look of crisp fresh denim over something really worn. I usually have 3 pairs of jeans in different stages of the denim life-cycle - and my favorites are the newest ones. Just a personal preference.
 
Mauro said:
If you really like dark indigo and want them to stay like that or at least as long as possible look for a fiber dyed cotton or hank dyed yarn. This way the yarn is dyed through completely so that the fades simple can't happen. You could also get a jeans where the warp and weft is dyed and that would give it a nice dark look.
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A MAJORITY of people will have no fucking idea what any of these terms mean Mauro.
 
Breath of fresh air today on PTO.

Should I Really Wait Six Months To Wash My Jeans?
Denim Lore with Kiya Bazani, Part One
Jesse’s excerpt from Marc Maron’s hilarious NYT article yesterday coincidentally comes just a day before I finished my interview with Kiya Babzani. As Marc’s article alludes to, there are some seemingly strange beliefs today on how to get the perfect pair of jeans: wear them in the bathtub when you first get them home, don’t wash them for six months, stick them in the oven (!) or freezer if they start to stink, run around in the ocean with them on, etc.
I asked Kiya if he could talk with us to see if some of these things are true. Kiya is the co-owner and founder of Self Edge, a very popular shop for jeans with locations in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and New York. On menswear forums, he’s commonly considered an expert on denim, so I thought he’d be a great person to talk to about denim lore.
Derek Guy: Let’s start with the most popular piece of advice: that one should not wash their jeans for at least the first six months of them being worn. Is this true?
Kiya Babzani: To my knowledge, that’s something that was started by APC and/or Nudies. There are a couple of reasons why someone would recommend that you shouldn’t wash your jeans. First, people getting into raw selvedge denim are usually looking for a certain type of look – one that has high contrast fades with dramatically defined lines around the top of the lap and behind the knees. This kind of fading is difficult to achieve with denim that has been done to death, which is what most brands use.
DG: Can you explain what do you mean by “done to death?”
KB: I mean fabric that has been singed, mercerized, calendered, and sanforized. They’ve taken every bit of life out of the fabric, leaving something very smooth and even. With denim treated like this – yes, you’ll normally need infrequent washings to get a very high-contrast fade at the end. But what most people don’t talk about is how if you buy a pair of jeans made from unsanforized denim, you’ll get these kinds of fades even if you washed your jeans every two weeks.
With unsanforized loomstate denim, the fabric is rigid and creases set in far faster. Additionally, due to the micro-hairs on the fabric (which are sometimes visible), the denim is more abrasive, which will allow you to get that very defined, high contrast look naturally, even with frequent washings.
DG: So denim that has been heavily treated – singed, mercerized, sanforized, etc. – will need longer periods of not being washed in order to get those high contrast fades, but unsanforized loomstate denim can achieve that with regular washings (every two weeks or so)?
KB: Yes, but add to this the fact that washing your jeans regularly is the sanitary thing to do, and doing so will make your jeans last longer. Cotton fibers become brittle with time and they need to be routinely “moisturized” (for lack of a better word). The longer you go without washing, the more prone your jeans are to crotch blowouts and “punch holes” behind the knees.
In the end, however, you never get fades on sanforized denim that are as interesting as you would on unsanforized denim. Of course, this is all very subjective, but in my opinion, unsanforized denim will always develop a more beautiful and interesting look.
DG: What about denim that has just been sanforized, but nothing else?
KB: Sanforization is the leading cause of what I explained above, with everything else being a minor addition.
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...aaaand part II.

Should You Take a Bath in Your Jeans and Other Common Denim Questions
Denim Lore with Kiya Babzani, Part II
Yesterday, we talked with Kiya Babzani - co-owner and founder of Self Edge - about whether or not people should really wait six months before washing their jeans. Today, we’ll explore three other common beliefs in the denim community, including the one about taking a bath in your jeans when you first bring them home.
Derek Guy: It’s commonly advised that jeans should always fit extremely tight when you first buy them – to the point where you can barely button them up. Is that true?
Kiya Babzani: Definitely not. There are two deciding factors when buying jeans: does it look good and does it feel good? If you’re stuffing yourself into a pair of jeans two sizes too small because that’s what the blogs and message boards tell you, you’re doing it wrong.
DG: Isn’t the idea that some jeans will heavily stretch over time?
KB: If you’re a 32 and you buy a pair of jeans in a size 30 to account for stretching, you’re going to look like a stuffed sausage and have red slashes at your hips for weeks. That’s neither comfortable nor attractive. Also, most decent jeans don’t stretch that much with wear. The maximum is about 1.5” or so unless you get them extremely tight when new.
DG: How about the idea that you should first wear your jeans in the bathtub while letting them soak?
KB: People like to overcomplicate the wearing of jeans. The idea that you should wear your jeans in a bathtub is a terrible idea. It’s not only uncomfortable, but it stretches out the jeans in unnatural ways. It creates knee-bagging and pulls at the hips, giving you hip-flare.
It’s true, however, that you should always soak unsanforized denim before wearing (you don’t need to for sanforized denim). If you’re buying them from a store, you should find the fit you like then buy one size up and do a 30-minute hot water soak once you bring them home. If you’re buying online, just buy one size/measurement up from your true size.
You need to soak unsanforized denim so that the shrinkage is gone before you start the fading process. The jeans will also last far longer if soaked before wearing. You don’t need to do it while wearing them in the tub, however. Again, this will just create unnatural stretching in areas such as the knees and hips. Just throw them in a tub, sink, or bucket, and let them soak.
DG: OK, let’s do one last bit of denim lore. I’ve read that raw denim will mold to your body. Is this actually true?
KB: Yes, all raw denim will mold to your body, but sanforized denim only slightly molds, while unsanforized denim will take on the shape of your figure. If you take two pairs of jeans in the same fit and size, one sanforized and one unsanforized, soak them both in water for five minutes, put them on, and let them dry (not something I recommend doing, by the way, for the reasons mentioned above). This will quicken the process of “molding.” Afterwards, you can take the jeans off and lay them down. You’ll then notice that the sanforized pair will be nearly like they were before, while the unsanforized pair will look like you’re still wearing them.
DG: Thanks for taking the time to speak with us, Kiya
KB: Thank you.
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Hegemon said:
What do you think about the Rogue Territory Stantons? I don't know much about the intricacies of jeans.

I'm also curious of the difference between mills. RT along with Baldwin uses Nihon Menpu Mills from Okayama while many other American brands are using Cone Mills.
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Welcome Hegemon.

Mauro this would be a perfect question for your denim construction thread.
 
Hegemon said:
What do you think about the Rogue Territory Stantons? I don't know much about the intricacies of jeans.

I'm also curious of the difference between mills. RT along with Baldwin uses Nihon Menpu Mills from Okayama while many other American brands are using Cone Mills.
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I wanted to take a stab at this - mill fabric is in the same vein as suiting cloth and shirt fabric. Its all a matter of preference and style. Some might like the Jap style better vs. the American. The question is if its worth the premium markup. IMO, no. For instance, this is a Japanese denim for $80:

https://www.weargustin.com/store/74

Now is that better or worse than the Rogue's? Who's to say. Is it worth $140 more to you? That's the real question.

Here's some reading that I found:
http://www.rawrdenim.com/forum/show...tween-the-cotton-(Japan-U-S-A-Zimbambwe-etc-)

http://mynudies.com/showthread.php?...s-US-Denim&s=a5ff59cd2005a56af2b029110714d021
 
Trying to decide between Tellason "John Graham Mellor" Slim Straight 16.5oz Cone Mills White Oak Selvedge in Indigo and Baldwin Denim "The Samuel" 15oz Kurabo Selvedge Denim in Indigo.

I think I need/want a slightly higher rise (long torso, short legs) with a slim straight cut that isn't skinny, in a dark, soft and heavy denim. Something a 42 year old guy can wear with a t shirt and boots on werkends and also tuck an OCBD shirt into and wear to work on casual Fridays.
 
Dropbear said:
Trying to decide between Tellason "John Graham Mellor" Slim Straight 16.5oz Cone Mills White Oak Selvedge in Indigo and Baldwin Denim "The Samuel" 15oz Kurabo Selvedge Denim in Indigo.

I think I need/want a slightly higher rise (long torso, short legs) with a slim straight cut that isn't skinny, in a dark, soft and heavy denim. Something a 42 year old guy can wear with a t shirt and boots on werkends and also tuck an OCBD shirt into and wear to work on casual Fridays.
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They both seem to have relatively the same measurements. Price is about equal as well. I suppose its whether you want a Japanese or American denim. Which have you never had before?
 
Dropbear said:
Trying to decide between Tellason "John Graham Mellor" Slim Straight 16.5oz Cone Mills White Oak Selvedge in Indigo and Baldwin Denim "The Samuel" 15oz Kurabo Selvedge Denim in Indigo.

I think I need/want a slightly higher rise (long torso, short legs) with a slim straight cut that isn't skinny, in a dark, soft and heavy denim. Something a 42 year old guy can wear with a t shirt and boots on werkends and also tuck an OCBD shirt into and wear to work on casual Fridays.
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I don't have experience w/ either brand personally, but from a consumer standpoint having looked at both and read reviews/comments of both, I would be more inclined to go with the Tellason.
 
El Argentino said:
I don't have experience w/ either brand personally, but from a consumer standpoint having looked at both and read reviews/comments of both, I would be more inclined to go with the Tellason.
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Thanks! This will be my first >$200 jeans and I'm feeling a little out of my depth here. Any other suggestions you could add?
 
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