T
tosq
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They never really recovered from the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
Multiculturalism, necessary or a failed and flawed policy?
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I read the term Gadaffi's Revenge today with respect to the African boat fiascos.
So who would benefit from a massive Arab exodus from the Mid-East?
So who would benefit from a massive Arab exodus from the Mid-East?
T
tosq
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My immediate guess would be ISIS and European economy would benefit most. This could be a nice way for Euro-companies to reduce headcount costs.I read the term Gadaffi's Revenge today with respect to the African boat fiascos.
So who would benefit from a massive Arab exodus from the Mid-East?
Scherensammler
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The catholic church had it's dirty, greedy hands in it, too.
What will be really "interesting" to see is how people will react when all of a sudden a whole lot of money is available to educate a bunch of refugees, while for years the education sector has been cut back more and more. The reason given for that was: "Tight budget"! Now, all of a sudden, the government(s) find(s) the money to pay for special schools and training facilities for refugees.
Parents were already complaining about large groups of students per class and the lack of teachers and the poor conditions of school buildings.
That's practically begging for trouble, but I'm sure the government and the media will find a way to connect every protest, even a reasonable one, to "Nazi Gesinnung"!
Scherensammler
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BTW, above a certain number integration doesn't work any more. Simply because the reason to integrate disappears.
Why learn a foreign language when you can get along with your mother tongue in daily life? Shops, bars, schools, even your own church, everything is available in your part of the town.
Why learn a foreign language when you can get along with your mother tongue in daily life? Shops, bars, schools, even your own church, everything is available in your part of the town.
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FTFY
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I'm dying to hear how the Catholic church caused the various genocides in the middle east.
Scherensammler
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I was more referring to the crusades, which probably started the hatred and rivalry between Christianity and Islam. Or at least took it to a new level.
As always, it's more of a struggle for power under the banner of religion, no matter which one.
It was custom in medieval Europe that, in the noble class, the second and/ or third born sons (the first born would inherit the title) would become a member of the military or the cleric. The higher the father's rank the easier it was for his sons to get a high rank as an officer or cleric.
Feel free to correct me, but didn't "noble blooded" leaders in both big religions base their ruling powers and rights on their respective God's blessing? So much easier than being the toughest bastard in your tribe.
I would gladly go back to the old Nordic gods.
T
tosq
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Indeed, the Islamic world has regressed from the relative multicultural tolerance and enlightens reasoning of the middle ages to a kind of race to be most intolerant and unreasonable. It's impressive that most middle eastern nations vie for religious, cultural, and/or geopolitical empire. Not a good mix for regional stability. What we are seeing now could end up being the region's own version of Europe's great wars.
Scherensammler
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Well, if the West, instead in wars over oil, had invested the same amount into alternative/ renewable energy sources our friends in the Middle East could fight it out all day long with little impact on the rest of the world.
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Oh, right. Islam was famously peaceful and benign, spread by polite missionaries who would put Mormons to shame. This politeness caused many Jews and Christians to flee the Middle East in horror at their own bad manners. Then, the jealous evil Catholics launched the Crusades, and ruined everything. Islam has tried valiantly to right the ship, but the aftereffects of those incredibly successful military incursions over six hundred years ago just keep getting in the way.
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I don't think that there's any sort of Machiavellian plot to destroy Germany.
I think that it's more self-interest - smaller countries that don't have as much money and as much infrastructure think that they'll try to shift the problem on to a larger country with more money and better infrastructure. It's a short-term fix, as they're panicking and simply looking to offload the issue.
There's no doubt that the UK and US have played a very big role in laying the foundations for the sectarian strife that's currently occurring in the Middle East and Africa.
However, it's hardly fair to sheet the responsibility solely back to the UK and the US, as many European countries - Spain, France, Belgium, Germany and others - set the scene for conflict with their 19th century imperial ventures. Of course, the UK was the imperial power par excellence, so they made a lot of the mess, but they're hardly the only country as most European powers were vying for the prestige of having at least one or two colonies in far-flung regions. Pitting race against race, caste against caste, creating borders that sliced through the middle of traditional tribal lands and many other policies which were, at the time, designed to allow the colonial powers to rule more easily, ended up creating a huge amount of trouble once the colonial powers pulled out.
Of course, there's a huge irony in the fact that the very colonial powers that invaded those countries and imposed their language and culture on those countries, are now struggling with how to deal with large numbers of uninvited visitors and are discussing whether those uninvited visitors should be allowed to stay and, if they stay, whether they can have schools and places of religion that teach in their own languages and so on.
Chickens coming home to roost, perhaps?
In general, history has shown that this isn't the case. There are, of course, exceptions but in general, migrant populations integrate quite well in 1-2 generations.
A couple of examples:
- In the US back in the 1800s, there were large communities of people from various countries - Irish, Poles, Germans and so on. There are well-documented examples of the great rivalry between some of these communities - Irish and Italians, for example. There were some towns that were almost entirely German-speaking that had German daily newspapers with good circulation numbers. Within a generation or two, though, most of those communities had disappeared. The children or the grandchildren of the original migrants had moved out into the wider community and had mingled with others.
- Australia, like the US, has had several waves of migrants from various backgrounds over the past couple of centuries. Post-WWII, there was a large influx of migrants from Italy, Sicily and Greece and then, in the 1970s and 1980s, there was a large influx of Vietnamese people following the end of the conflict in Vietnam. Like the example above, these people self-segregated for a time but then moved out into the wider community. Certain suburbs might still have a higher concentration of people from a certain ethnic background than other suburbs, but over the past couple of decades, the children and grandchildren of those original migrants have spread out across the city, inter-married and, in many cases, they can't speak their ancestral languages, or only speak it a little bit.
Scherensammler
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I think things are a little different here in Europe. In nearly every larger town and city there are areas that are inhabited by immigrants only or at least by a large percentage.
It's mostly people from outside of central Europe that create their own communities within communities. Central Europe shares a common history and culture since there was so much movement (including conquering) over the past millennia.
There was a wave of Polish immigrants in the late 1800 and they have well integrated. Many Italians came to work in Germany after the war and they have integrated. There's no "Little Italy" or "China Town".
The opposite are the Turkish "guest workers" who came for work only and basically took over the cheaper living areas of the communities, slowly but steadily driving out the local population and more or less recreating their home land with shops, bars, restaurants and churches. Their kids don't speak German well since they don't speak it at home, hence creating some major problems in schools. There are endless reports about kids with a migration background under-performing and being unemployed in later life.
So there is no need to integrate in the sense that they don't move much and can find work that doesn't require speaking German in their community.
BTW, the propaganda in the media has already started. Every time they come up with the same story, migrants are a win for Germany/ Europe. They leave out the fact that there are hardly enough jobs or houses for the people that are already here and that we hardly have the infrastructure (after decades of cuts in public spending) to cope with such vast numbers of people moving in in such short time. Housing, education, health care and security all fall behind already.
Unqualified people work in minimum wage jobs (at least they get that paid on paper, not IRL) , and the new arrivals will create tension because they'll eventually have to work for less, replacing the old ones. The low wages sector has expanded massively over the past decades, up to the point that the money earned is not enough to sustain a living and the state has to support them.
The tax revenue from such jobs doesn't exist, which puts a massive strain on the tax payers. Sadly, a lot of high salary earning folks (and corporations, for that matter) are more or less exempt from the overall system.
Europe needs to grow a pair and either close its borders entirely or help to sort out the mess in the Middle East. Both is unlikely to happen.
It's mostly people from outside of central Europe that create their own communities within communities. Central Europe shares a common history and culture since there was so much movement (including conquering) over the past millennia.
There was a wave of Polish immigrants in the late 1800 and they have well integrated. Many Italians came to work in Germany after the war and they have integrated. There's no "Little Italy" or "China Town".
The opposite are the Turkish "guest workers" who came for work only and basically took over the cheaper living areas of the communities, slowly but steadily driving out the local population and more or less recreating their home land with shops, bars, restaurants and churches. Their kids don't speak German well since they don't speak it at home, hence creating some major problems in schools. There are endless reports about kids with a migration background under-performing and being unemployed in later life.
So there is no need to integrate in the sense that they don't move much and can find work that doesn't require speaking German in their community.
BTW, the propaganda in the media has already started. Every time they come up with the same story, migrants are a win for Germany/ Europe. They leave out the fact that there are hardly enough jobs or houses for the people that are already here and that we hardly have the infrastructure (after decades of cuts in public spending) to cope with such vast numbers of people moving in in such short time. Housing, education, health care and security all fall behind already.
Unqualified people work in minimum wage jobs (at least they get that paid on paper, not IRL) , and the new arrivals will create tension because they'll eventually have to work for less, replacing the old ones. The low wages sector has expanded massively over the past decades, up to the point that the money earned is not enough to sustain a living and the state has to support them.
The tax revenue from such jobs doesn't exist, which puts a massive strain on the tax payers. Sadly, a lot of high salary earning folks (and corporations, for that matter) are more or less exempt from the overall system.
Europe needs to grow a pair and either close its borders entirely or help to sort out the mess in the Middle East. Both is unlikely to happen.