The SF/AAAC/FNB trainwreck thread

Pimpernel Smith

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He was pretty amusing. I miss AQG as well.

As I mentioned upthread, Gilgamesh was my all time favorite. I dropped him an email not long ago to tell him about this place but don't know if he popped in or not.

Chevere was another poster I enjoyed.
AQG was also a member of the Chensvold's Dandyism. He liked his G&T's.

There was Robespierre early days. He liked his whisky.
I was always mystified by the obsession with 'Ivy'. Growing up with it, we just considered them 'clothes'. And, more often than not, 'boring old man clothes'.

Even today at Harvard, St. Paul's, Philips, it's mostly school sports teams who are dressed for away games or visitors overdone in Ivy cosplay. When it's time for an event, everyone just pulls out the old school uniform. Nothing fascinating about Trad.
In the UK it did have a certain underground vibe and there was a buzz in the media in the early 2010's.

I wore exclusively Ivy style late 2000's until Autumn 2015. Mainly Brooks Brothers, J.Press, Mercer & Sons shirts and some Buzz Rickson army gear. By the way, John Gaul loved his Mercer shirts, I've heard him wax lyrical on them like they were something divinely created. A few other brands, Alden's in Cordovan No.8 of course, some of the J.Kedge were good, but most were like wearing a jumper reengineered into a jacket. Weird. John Simons shirts were always hit and miss, good collar, but were too short on the arms.

To me, it was the perfect look for someone who was exclusively into modern jazz which I was at the time.

Ultimately, it's a limited style and easy to master. I think it looks best on younger people, much like RL which is Ivy on psychedelics.

After I had my neck operation in 2015, my neck size went up one size and I needed to go on the weights to sort out the muscle wastage on one side of my body, so I went from a 42 chest to 44. So nothing fit and then I decided it was a time for a style change and get back to the English look.

The only things I still have from that period are some repp and knitted ties and some Buzz Rickson jackets and officer pinks which I never wear.
 

formby002

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English Look: one of many English looks.

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Otto

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I know about the difference between shoulder padding, but surely this couldn't constitute an entirely different style.
 

formby002

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David Bowie as his Ziggy Stardust persona, of course.
...that's another English Look. One of many.

Although you jest (I think) you do touch on an important aspect of the English psyche...the love of theatre and spectacle. How else, could a buffoon like Boris climb that slippery pole?

In a choice between the Roundhead (Puritans), and the Cavalier. The English will nearly always choose the Cavalier.
 

Ambrosius08

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...that's another English Look. One of many.

Although you jest (I think) you do touch on an important aspect of the English psyche...the love of theatre and spectacle. How else, could a buffoon like Boris climb that slippery pole?

In a choice between the Roundhead (Puritans), and the Cavalier. The English will nearly always choose the Cavalier.
Yes, I meant it as a joke. But as you say, it's very true that the English value flamboyancy and even eccentricity more than some other cultures. And this attitude goes far back in history. Even during the extremely puritanical Victorian era, colourful and even outright bohemian Englishmen such as Lord Byron, Benjamin Disraeli, and Oscar Wilde were respected and admired, even with their quirks and deviant fashion sense. These qualities would have made them persona non grata in many other parts of Europe at that time.

As an example, I recall that when Oscar Wilde travelled to the US sometime before his fall from grace, he (and especially his appearance) was met with uproar, shock, and revulsion.
 

Dropbear

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I think English are generally more tolerant of eccentricities or enjoy cultivating them.

In America, a conservative politician is expected to dress the same way - and if they are a little flamboyant, ALL of their conservative values are called into question.
 

doghouse

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Even during the extremely puritanical Victorian era, colourful and even outright bohemian Englishmen such as Lord Byron, Benjamin Disraeli, and Oscar Wilde were respected and admired, even with their quirks and deviant fashion sense.

I've actually just began a book called Dandy Style that was published to accompany a menswear exhibit at the Manchester Art Gallery, which touches on these figures.

It's a very academic volume, but has phenomenal photos and depth.
 

Ambrosius08

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I've actually just began a book called Dandy Style that was published to accompany a menswear exhibit at the Manchester Art Gallery, which touches on these figures.

It's a very academic volume, but has phenomenal photos and depth.
That’s interesting. Personally I have always associated creativity and an affinity for the visual arts with dandyism. Like an outwardly expression of internal characteristics that are reflected in one’s clothing choices.

I would love to see some of the pictures!
 

florisgreen

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...that's another English Look. One of many.

Although you jest (I think) you do touch on an important aspect of the English psyche...the love of theatre and spectacle. How else, could a buffoon like Boris climb that slippery pole?

In a choice between the Roundhead (Puritans), and the Cavalier. The English will nearly always choose the Cavalier.

I would never give my vote to a buffoon like Boris Johnson.
But I'm no Englishman.

Actually populism is strongly in trend worldwide in the the last decades: Berlusconi, Trump, Sarkozy, Bolsonaro, Orban are the major examples.
 
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Pimpernel Smith

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...that's another English Look. One of many.

Although you jest (I think) you do touch on an important aspect of the English psyche...the love of theatre and spectacle. How else, could a buffoon like Boris climb that slippery pole?

In a choice between the Roundhead (Puritans), and the Cavalier. The English will nearly always choose the Cavalier.
Yes and no, there's certainly an element of puritanical killjoys and how dare they enjoy themselves in the UK, most strikingly in the UK work culture.
Yes, I meant it as a joke. But as you say, it's very true that the English value flamboyancy and even eccentricity more than some other cultures. And this attitude goes far back in history. Even during the extremely puritanical Victorian era, colourful and even outright bohemian Englishmen such as Lord Byron, Benjamin Disraeli, and Oscar Wilde were respected and admired, even with their quirks and deviant fashion sense. These qualities would have made them persona non grata in many other parts of Europe at that time.

As an example, I recall that when Oscar Wilde travelled to the US sometime before his fall from grace, he (and especially his appearance) was met with uproar, shock, and revulsion.
Byron and Wilde weren't universally admired or respected, they were outcasts. But that's part of the attraction of eccentrics, the working class version was Johnny Rotten.

Some commentators have speculated that the English taste and penchant for eccentricity comes from the old inheritance system where the eldest son got most of the estate and could waste his time on flamboyant idleness, frivolity and getting brain syphilis. On the opposite side, there is the English studied pose of sangfroid as a quality of back-bone and stiff-upper lip.
This outfit is exemplary tackiness.

Really awful colour, cut and fit.
That was a good example of 80s flair.
I would never give my vote to a buffoon like Boris Johnson.
But I'm no Englishman.
You should have seen the other fella.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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I clearly understand this, but even by those standards this look is quite unpleasant.

The 80s were probably the worst decade of the past century in matter of style.
There certainly was an 80s style, but other than ubiquitous black bubble jackets even in warm weather and men wearing leggings with white trainers/sneakers, what has 2000-2021 brought us in terms of style?
 

florisgreen

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There certainly was an 80s style, but other than ubiquitous black bubble jackets even in warm weather and men wearing leggings with white trainers/sneakers, what has 2000-2021 brought us in terms of style?

Maybe a return to classicism? Not generally meant of course, but nowadays you can see many good outfits.
 

florisgreen

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Sense of humor isn't your strongpoint Floris is it? :lol

Probably you're right, it's not, at least to some extent.

Nonetheless it would be interesting to know what those reactions mean: do they find the look good? Would they wear that outfit?
 

belinmad

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Sometimes an emoji is easily understandable, but in some cases would be useful for a good discussion to explain the reasons of one's disagreement instead of sarcastically rolling the eyes.

I can only speak for myself, but I'd believe several of us are rolling our eyes because you seem to apply cookie-cutter rules of style you have adopted and uphold as if they are god-given, even for situations/attires were those rules are entirely out of context.

So I personally roll my eyes at the following aspects of your stylistic stance:

1. I don't believe these rules to be universal, absolute and unchallengeable. So every time you say things like "tie is too long", and deride looks that fall outside these rules, even when it's a rule-challenger-but-overall-accepted-as-stylish individual like Agnelli, I roll my eyes. You're being unnecessarily dogmatic and pedantic about these rules.

2. In the case above, you apply these rules to people who are not intending to dress in the manner you accept as universally stylish, such as the case of David Bowie, and you call them "awful and tacky", even when in this case the man was unquestionably a style icon of his era, for good or bad. Believe me, the man knew where Anderson & Sheppard was, he just chose not to wear an A&S suit at this point in his career - that was not the intent. Your comment is just laughable, and makes me believe you are missing the point entirely.

3. Finally, as I've told you many times before, you'd have a lot more credibility if you posted pictures of what YOU wear, instead of just copypasting IG pictures posted by vendors. It makes you look like a catalog, not an actual person wearing stylish clothes. So I roll my eyes at yet-another-style-academic-who-hides-anonymously-on-the-internet.

Hope this helps clarify.
 

florisgreen

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I can only speak for myself, but I'd believe several of us are rolling our eyes because you seem to apply cookie-cutter rules of style you have adopted and uphold as if they are god-given, even for situations/attires were those rules are entirely out of context.

So I personally roll my eyes at the following aspects of your stylistic stance:

1. I don't believe these rules to be universal, absolute and unchallengeable. So every time you say things like "tie is too long", and deride looks that fall outside these rules, even when it's a rule-challenger-but-overall-accepted-as-stylish individual like Agnelli, I roll my eyes. You're being unnecessarily dogmatic and pedantic about these rules.

2. In the case above, you apply these rules to people who are not intending to dress in the manner you accept as universally stylish, such as the case of David Bowie, and you call them "awful and tacky", even when in this case the man was unquestionably a style icon of his era, for good or bad. Believe me, the man knew where Anderson & Sheppard was, he just chose not to wear an A&S suit at this point in his career - that was not the intent. Your comment is just laughable, and makes me believe you are missing the point entirely.

3. Finally, as I've told you many times before, you'd have a lot more credibility if you posted pictures of what YOU wear, instead of just copypasting IG pictures posted by vendors. It makes you look like a catalog, not an actual person wearing stylish clothes. So I roll my eyes at yet-another-style-academic-who-hides-anonymously-on-the-internet.

Hope this helps clarify.

You're wrong, I don't deride others' opinions, as you do. I just state my point, that falls outside of a context. As I see, the 80s were yesterday, and the most of us have lived them, we don't talk about Victorian style. I don't see why a music star should have some benefits.

Of course I have my opinions and tastes and I'm aware of it, but I'm always open to a fair and constructive discussion.
 

Ambrosius08

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I actually like the 80’s. Both in music as well as clothing. However, late 1980’s garments were pretty awful with their ridiculously huge shoulder padding.

At one point even shirts were padded so much as to make people look like they were in full rugby gear under them, for god’s sake.
 

Sauce

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David Bowie was always cool as fuck. He could have worn a dustbin bag and still looked cool. He had the swagger, whatever he wore was secondary. Grounded in Mod culture.

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florisgreen

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Please see point 2 in my answer - you are entirely missing the point.


Please see point 1 in my answer - hard to have a constructive discussion when you only get dogmatic replies.

I may sound dogmatic, but it's just my honest opinion.

I have respect for a style icon as Gianni Agnelli, the more being an Italian, but a tie penor is ugly (to me), no matter who wears it.
 

belinmad

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Nobody looks good in a dustbin bag.
Don't get this personality worshipping.

It's not personality worshipping. Style is part of culture, style evolves. Bowie contributed significantly, and was at times at the forefront of the evolution of mainstream style (including part of what you idolize, ie mod) from the 70's to his death. And you are missing that point entirely, because you see style as a monolithic, static concept.


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Sauce

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Nobody looks good in a dustbin bag.
Don't get this personality worshipping.
Missing the point again. Clothes are secondary with some men. Bowie was always cool, regardless of what he wore. Part of the reason being when he wasn't wearing cool classic suiting he was pushing bounderies with fashion of the time or portaying an alter-ego. Pop stars, like Bowie, Iggy Pop, Jagger, Richards ect can be super flamboyant and remain mega cool. If you don't get that I'd say you're struggling with creative ability.
 

doghouse

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I have always found the notion of "classic" menswear to be rather amusing personally. Classic how? A random arbitrary time period of one's choosing? Because certainly what people like to expound as "classic menswear" is a historical anomaly, which only existed for a very small amount of time. The label isn't really about what is classic but is used to proscribe a very narrow set of rules bordering on ideology. By any measure classic menwear would be a toga like garment.

And I say this as a devotee of the suit, probably moreso than most people on this forum. I think it's aesthetic perfection for the male form. But there is a lot of room for expression within that framework as well.
 

belinmad

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It's not personality worshipping. Style is part of culture, style evolves. Bowie contributed significantly, and was at times at the forefront of the evolution of mainstream style (including part of what you idolize, ie mod) from the 70's to his death. And you are missing that point entirely, because you see style as a monolithic, static concept.


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I thought you weren’t into eye rolling emojis, florisgreen florisgreen . 🤣
Let me explain with a simple example, on how that which you discount has influenced that which you admire.

Bowie was a significant “representative” of the Mod movement, which influenced some of the most traditional Savile Row houses, including those of A&S, HP, etc.in terms of cut, lapel size, etc.

Then, and as a counterpoint to Mod “minimalism”, we saw the rise of Nutters and the over the top 70’s. Which would not have existed as it did if not for Bowie (and viceversa). Out of that movement, we have some of the most iconic and influential SR tailors today: Edward Sexton, Joe Morgan, etc.

see how it works?
 

Pimpernel Smith

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I may sound dogmatic, but it's just my honest opinion.

I have respect for a style icon as Gianni Agnelli, the more being an Italian, but a tie penor is ugly (to me), no matter who wears it.
Of course, in the examples above, Bowie was dressing for the stage.

The status of industrialists in mainland Europe has no equivalence in the UK and I think America. Certainly as style icons. Even the French with their ''men in grey suits''.
 
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