A Futile and Stupid Gesture: The History of the First Trump Presidency & Q-Anon

[InstaHate]

I bet there aren't many statues of Sherman in Atlanta...

Only because it is impossible to capture such a magnificent visage in stone:

 

[doghouse]

Yes. Why specifically mention the KKK? Media expects some sort of Pavlovian response. There were not huge numbers of KKK. It was an alt-right event.

Yes - nobody mentions antifa. They can do as they please without a police response in many instances. Antifa rentamob came prepared to instigate violence.

No. This was a neo Nazi rally. You are confusing it with the tiki torch eunuchs from the night before.

Nobody from any counter protest group murdered anyone else. The Nazi did. A complete innocent girl walking down the street. And our President who is supposed to represent all can't bring himself to say that because he has the emotional maturity of a 5 year old.

The Nazis are going to protest get funeral too btw.

.


But I think the removal of the statues is, by and large, a good thing. At least those of the leaders (as opposed to those memorializing dead soldiers). There is a difference between celebration and remembering, and statues of CSA leaders are a celebration. That's what statues of individuals are.

The best option is museums. I assume there are history museums in Germany filled with Hitler busts and swastika flags.

Someone tried to tell me that nobody cared about those statues until now, not even blacks. I think this is a widespread misconception. Many white Americans cared, just not enough to really do anything (probably getting as far as "yeah, those aren't good). Black Americans absolutely cared, but most, in my experience*, felt their voices wouldn't be heard and that there were more important issues to worry about than statues.

* active member of an association of under represented minorities in STEM and business disciplines. I attend their conferences twice a year. It's about 80% black for whatever reason, and then maybe 20% Hispanic. This topic was specifically discussed--since Trump's election, all not structured sessions have veered towards the sociopolitical

Precisely

There have been similar calls in Britain, Rhodes being, a recent, rancorous example and currently Edward Colston in Bristol. There have also been street names in Liverpool.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/must-edward-colston-fall/

I bet there aren't many statues of Sherman in Atlanta...

They talked about putting one in Peachtree plaza. Didn't go over so well as you might have guessed...

 

[InstaHate]

I was just there for a conference actually. Very nice, as the Hilton, Hyatt, and Marriott are all connected by skybridges, so you don't need to leave. I think I went 60 hours at one point just bouncing between the three without leaving. When I did leave, however, there were homeless everywhere.

 

[doghouse]

When I did leave, however, there were homeless everywhere.

Well, it is Atlanta.

 

[Fwiffo]

I've honestly been glossing over the whole thing. Seeing images I thought were gone after the 1960s is a bit monotonous.

I don't support historical revisionism though. If that was the case we ought to topple the Colosseum.

That said this is a hallmark of the Trump administration so far. Just when there is something serious at hand a self inflicted (you're fired) or completely random tangent railroads the entire conversation. The neighbours to the north are running front page stories for the whole week on NAFTA re-negotiations. How focused is the White House on that?

 

[fxh]

I want to see a pic of doggie wrapped in a confederate flag & a stars and stripes.

 

[Kingstonian]

Trump has seen what a waste of time it is pandering to the media and gone back to his original position that trouble came from all sorts of groups.

Antifa usually has a much larger presence at demonstrations than any group on the right.

 

[doghouse]

I want to see a pic of doggie wrapped in a confederate flag & a stars and stripes.

I need to source an American flag.

 

[Lord Buckley]

Trump has seen what a waste of time it is pandering to the media and gone back to his original position that trouble came from all sorts of groups.

Antifa usually has a much larger presence at demonstrations than any group on the right.

 

[Journeyman]

That speech - ostensibly meant to be about infrastructure - was an absolute train wreck. All of a sudden, Trump's saying that he can't comment on things immediately because he "doesn't know the truth"?

Perhaps he's turning over a new leaf, because that has certainly never stopped him before.

 

[Lord Buckley]

There have been similar calls in Britain, Rhodes being, a recent, rancorous example and currently Edward Colston in Bristol. There have also been street names in Liverpool.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/must-edward-colston-fall/

I bet there aren't many statues of Sherman in Atlanta...

The student agitator who campaigned for the removal of the statue of Rhodes from Oxford was himself there on a Rhodes scholarship! He subsequently gained notoriety in South Africa for leaving a message to a white waitress in a restaurant saying that he would leave a tip only when white South Africans gave back their land to him. A right nasty piece of work.

Thankfully, the statue remains after overwhelming support to keep it.

I don't support historical revisionism though. If that was the case we ought to topple the Colosseum.

Exactly, where will it end: destroying all public vestiges of USA's Civil War cultural heritage on the basis of diversty, social justice and the removal of white supremacy? Abraham Lincoln will need to go too as he was not in favour of equality of the races and you can keep taking it back until like Saudi Arabia and ISIS you have erased and purified the weight of history in the pristine morality and culture of our time.

I think here in Europe we are somewhat more mature in dealing with historic monuments of our ancestors. Of course, we don't have monuments and swastikas from Nazi Germany and these are right to be removed, be it most of them had already been flattened by our bombing. But even such a figure as General Lee, cannot be compared to Hitler's henchmen.

That speech - ostensibly meant to be about infrastructure - was an absolute train wreck. All of a sudden, Trump's saying that he can't comment on things immediately because he "doesn't know the truth"?

The train wreck I took out of it was how much of a desperate incoherent rabble the legacy media is. The effete shout of "Are you against the Confederacy?" was particularly idiotic.

 

[doghouse]

Exactly, where will it end: destroying all public vestiges of USA's Civil War cultural heritage on the basis of diversty, social justice and the removal of white supremacy? Abraham Lincoln will need to go too as he was not in favour of equality of the races and you can keep taking it back until like Saudi Arabia and ISIS you have erased and purified the weight of history in the pristine morality and culture of our time.

I think here in Europe we are somewhat more mature in dealing with historic monuments of our ancestors. Of course, we don't have monuments and swastikas from Nazi Germany and these are right to be removed, be it most of them had already been flattened by our bombing. But even such a figure as General Lee, cannot be compared to Hitler's henchmen.

Yeah, all those towns in Germany with Hitler statues in the public squares must agree with you.

One fellow who didn't agree with you is Robert E. Lee.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/

“I think it wiser,” the retired military leader wrote about a proposed Gettysburg memorial in 1869, “…not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”

 

[Monkeyface]

That speech - ostensibly meant to be about infrastructure - was an absolute train wreck. All of a sudden, Trump's saying that he can't comment on things immediately because he "doesn't know the truth"?

Perhaps he's turning over a new leaf, because that has certainly never stopped him before.

Lol, the guy who tweets several times a day about random stuff that just happened all of a sudden needs to wait days until he gets all the facts?

 

[InstaHate]

Except that unlike the Coliseum, Auschwitz, Seodaemun Prison, etc, the statues aren't a part of history, they are a celebration of history (as are most, if not all statues not built contemporaneously). The Washington Monument is not a part of the history of the Revolutionary War and the early years of independence, but a celebration one of its greatest leaders. The Lincoln memorial is not a part of Civil War history, but a celebration of the president who oversaw it.

The Confederate generals were not evil, and they were a product of their environment, but they did nothing that deserves celebration. Regardless of their motivation, they fought for a country which enslaved other human beings, in a war where slavery was the central issue (born out by primary documents, as I bet doghouse can attest to; the states rights not slaves argument is largely historical revisionism). Every one of them knew that if they won, human beings would continue to be enslaved. Again, they are a product of their environment, so I am not condemning them as evil, but "not evil" is a very low bar for getting a statue, and "not evil but effectively fought for something which is evil" is even lower.

The only thing these monuments serve as a historical artifact for is the South's love of its Confederate history, which is certainly worth study, but probably not worth a bunch of statues.

 

[Monkeyface]

Except that unlike the Coliseum, Auschwitz, Seodaemun Prison, etc, the statues aren't a part of history, they are a celebration of history (as are most, if not all statues not built contemporaneously). The Washington Monument is not a part of the history of the Revolutionary War and the early years of independence, but a celebration one of its greatest leaders. The Lincoln memorial is not a part of Civil War history, but a celebration of the president who oversaw it.

The Confederate generals were not evil, and they were a product of their environment, but they did nothing that deserves celebration. Regardless of their motivation, they fought for a country which enslaved other human beings, in a war where slavery was the central issue (born out by primary documents, as I bet doghouse can attest to; the states rights not slaves argument is largely historical revisionism). Every one of them knew that if they won, human beings would continue to be enslaved. Again, they are a product of their environment, so I am not condemning them as evil, but "not evil" is a very low bar for getting a statue, and "not evil but effectively fought for something which is evil" is even lower.

The only thing these monuments serve as a historical artifact for is the South's love of its Confederate history, which is certainly worth study, but probably not worth a bunch of statues.

I can imagine I wouldn't like it if every day I had to see a big statue of a guy who wanted to enslave me. I probably wouldn't think it needed to be destroyed, but perhaps an educational museum would be a better place than a town square.

I think this is called empathy, and it's what lacking in this debate.

 

[Kingstonian]

Cecil Rhodes was no angel but he was a proud Englishman who nearly established a Cape to Cairo empire for us.

The once prosperous nation set up in his name is now basket case Zimbabwe.

 

[Monkeyface]

Cecil Rhodes was no angel but he was a proud Englishman who nearly established a Cape to Cairo empire for us.

The once prosperous nation set up in his name is now basket case Zimbabwe.

You talk about the British empire like it was a good thing?

 

[Kingstonian]

You talk about the British empire like it was a good thing?

Countries that left the Empire in most cases went down the toilet. Most of Africa. India and Pakistan after partition, etc., etc.

 

[InstaHate]

As far as empires go, we have to acknowledge that it was definitely one of the best*. Doesn't make it right, but it is worth acknowledging.

*though that depends on the level of infrastructure invested in the territory I suppose.

 

[doghouse]

Except that unlike the Coliseum, Auschwitz, Seodaemun Prison, etc, the statues aren't a part of history, they are a celebration of history (as are most, if not all statues not built contemporaneously). The Washington Monument is not a part of the history of the Revolutionary War and the early years of independence, but a celebration one of its greatest leaders. The Lincoln memorial is not a part of Civil War history, but a celebration of the president who oversaw it.

The Confederate generals were not evil, and they were a product of their environment, but they did nothing that deserves celebration. Regardless of their motivation, they fought for a country which enslaved other human beings, in a war where slavery was the central issue (born out by primary documents, as I bet doghouse can attest to; the states rights not slaves argument is largely historical revisionism). Every one of them knew that if they won, human beings would continue to be enslaved. Again, they are a product of their environment, so I am not condemning them as evil, but "not evil" is a very low bar for getting a statue, and "not evil but effectively fought for something which is evil" is even lower.

The only thing these monuments serve as a historical artifact for is the South's love of its Confederate history, which is certainly worth study, but probably not worth a bunch of statues.

As usual you've pointed out several salient points. Firstly, these things were built in the goddamn 20th century. They aren't history.

But more to the point, of course all the generals weren't evil. Lee in particular was a highly complex individual. Some were evil though, as were some of the Union generals. And they absolutely fought to keep their fellow man enslaved. As an aside, I don't know a single remotely respected person of this discipline who gives states rights any credence as a legitimizer for the Civil War anymore. I honestly haven't even heard anyone bring it up in years. I'm personally a states rights proponent in general btw, but that is more to my federalist beliefs. I would say I believe that it's more economic than anything, which is worse in my mind, as they basically were trying to protect their wallet by treating other humans as a subspecies. I think slavery was a byproduct of economic interests, and a whole mythology about the inferiority of one person vis a vis another was created to further that end.

Finally, as mentioned before, no one is erasing history. It's in every text book in the country. Everyone knows all about it. If you want the statues, put them in museum and people can learn all about them. Don't put them in the town square where we venerate people. Lee, the very man who all the gnashing of teeth is about, even said don't build these things.

I feel like we have to explain things to five years olds 24/7 these days. It's amazing how juvenile and low functioning the world has gotten. Fucking baby boomers.

 

[doghouse]

I think this is called empathy, and it's what lacking in this debate the world these days.

Repaired.

 

[doghouse]

You talk about the British empire like it was a good thing?

It wasn't necessarily good or bad. I think on the balance it was a net positive for the world. Rhodes wasn't one of the good ones though. Most everything Britain did in Africa was a fucking joke. Middle East too. Kenya was ok I guess.

Hong Kong was done well, and Canada. Oz was ok. India probably neutral on the balance after the stupidity in the late 19th century.

 

[Fwiffo]

Cecil Rhodes was no angel but he was a proud Englishman who nearly established a Cape to Cairo empire for us.

The once prosperous nation set up in his name is now basket case Zimbabwe.

Run buy a dictator who is the number one anglophile in the country. We should abolish the Rhodes scholarship. Money used to churn out all these belligerent people out to annex the world.

You talk about the British empire like it was a good thing?

It was good for some people. And in some cases after independence it has been uniformly bad for a lot more people. Wasn't some oriental guy hoisting the colonial flag of Hong Kong with the union jack in the corner in the umbrella revolution?

The most successful countries were the one who went through long periods of dominion status. Compare South Africa today to the other dominions.

 

[fxh]

Countries that left the Empire in most cases went down the toilet. Most of Africa. India and Pakistan after partition, etc., etc.

Australia - Canada?

 

[Monkeyface]

Run buy a dictator who is the number one anglophile in the country. We should abolish the Rhodes scholarship. Money used to churn out all these belligerent people out to annex the world.



It was good for some people. And in some cases after independence it has been uniformly bad for a lot more people. Wasn't some oriental guy hoisting the colonial flag of Hong Kong with the union jack in the corner in the umbrella revolution?

The most successful countries were the one who went through long periods of dominion status. Compare South Africa today to the other dominions.

Yes, good for the lords and all, being enriched by the extraction of other countries' resources. Sovereignty seems to be very important for the Brits these days, but only if it is for yourselves, right? Bunch of hypocrites, talking about sovereignty while simultaneously gloryifying the past empire.

 

[Kingstonian]

Australia - Canada?

White Commonwealth countries. Mostly British settlers - albeit a lot of convicts in the case of Australia.

 

[Kingstonian]

Victorian Brits were often far sighted.

The polymath Galton thought Chinese should be encouraged to populate Africa as it was not suitable for Anglo Saxons. A black man I worked with noted that where Chinese and Indians co exist the
Chinaman is always top dog. I am not sure if he was familiar with Galtons views. Anyway, China is now a key player in that continent although Galton would be classified as 'politically incorrect' these days.

http://galton.org/letters/africa-for-chinese/AfricaForTheChinese.htm

A bit like left winger Paul Robeson objecting to the film 'Sanders of the River'

"London Films' Sanders of the River (d. Zoltan Korda, 1935) begins with a dedication to the civil service in Britain's colonies - "the handful of white men whose everyday work is an unsung saga of courage and efficiency". Set in what was then British Nigeria, Sanders of the River was the first in a series of British Empire movies from Alexander Korda's studio.

Korda's Empire ventures may have been driven by a conviction that the British territories represented a vast untapped market, but they also reflected a sincere pride in his adopted country. Despite a left-wing past in his native Hungary, including acting as an advisor to the shortlived Hungarian Communist government in 1918 (a relationship which led to his brief imprisonment after the government was overthrown by General Horthy's fascists), by 1935 Korda was a dyed-in-the-wool Tory. "

 

[Lord Buckley]

Yeah, all those towns in Germany with Hitler statues in the public squares must agree with you.

One fellow who didn't agree with you is Robert E. Lee.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/

The road we are on will see the likes of this song ultimately proscribed as it glorifies the old South, the resistance and General Lee:



I think we are all capable of looking at a statue that represents a historic fact and heritage and say yes, that was then, but this is now. Thankfully we've moved on and that was the culture and we have this to promote conversation and some of those statues have artistic value. Yes, the economic system and politics behind it we disagree and have eradicated.

I've travelled in the US and those statues I've seen of the Confederacy and General Custer, I recognize as representative of the past and not now. They have artistic value, they are talking pieces to educate the young. Now I can agree that any statue that has become a rallying point for the few members of the KKK and other such groups should be removed, or relocated. But the reality is, the evil that is waiting the wings, seeks to eradicate like Stalin all traces of that which it doesn't fit ideologically with their world vision.

What is going on with the Confederate statues is just the opening skirmish of a much bigger project.

The only thing these monuments serve as a historical artifact for is the South's love of its Confederate history, which is certainly worth study, but probably not worth a bunch of statues.

So why rub the noses of the South in the proverbial over its interest in Confederate history. Why remove historic artefact to show how more advanced and progressive we are compared to them?

As far as empires go, we have to acknowledge that it was definitely one of the best*. Doesn't make it right, but it is worth acknowledging.

*though that depends on the level of infrastructure invested in the territory I suppose.

It was the best empire the world has ever known: the gift of common law.

The investment in the infrastructure in India alone led to the connection of the sub-continent and rain management systems that could cope with the monsoon.

Yes, good for the lords and all, being enriched by the extraction of other countries' resources. Sovereignty seems to be very important for the Brits these days, but only if it is for yourselves, right? Bunch of hypocrites, talking about sovereignty while simultaneously gloryifying the past empire.

Resources are nothing if you don't have the technology, or ever would without western input to extract them. Extraction is costly and involves great technological expertise. But I agree the Arab way is better....

 

[doghouse]

So why rub the noses of the South in the proverbial over its interest in Confederate history. Why remove historic artefact to show how more advanced and progressive we are compared to them?

Hey, I have a crazy idea. Why don't you let us southerners make the decision? Quite unthinkable, I know.

Btw, The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down is a song about the horrors inflicted in war, and having no good choices. We usually sing it very loudly at night after drinking a lot of Bud heavy and it would probably make most of you very uncomfortable.

 

[Lord Buckley]

Hey, I have a crazy idea. Why don't you let us southerners make the decision? Quite unthinkable, I know.

Btw, The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down is a song about the horrors inflicted in war, and having no good choices. We usually sing it very loudly at night after drinking a lot of Bud heavy and it would probably make most of you very uncomfortable.

I agree, the locals should decide, a load of Antifa types vandalising statues and demolishing them is not the way to go. It looks to an outsider like me, like the tactics of ISIS.

Again as an outsider, I like the historic statues, perhaps I see America as a museum and I can interpret them as without current meaning on identity politics? I certainly don't look at them and think, oh man, these dudes are still fighting the lost cause of the Confederacy and these are rallying points for the few KKK in America. I look at them as historic heritage. The war was awful, slavery evil, but it was fact, it happened and should not be denied.

The Night They Drive Old Dixie Down was written by a Canadian so as I fellow foreigner I feel I have some rights to give an opinion on this: it is about a poor white southerner at the end of the Civil War and as Levon Helm states in his autobiography it was an attempt to evoke the era and "....make General Robert E. Lee come out with all due respect." By the values of our time, this is unacceptable and should be destroyed.

The forces we are unleashing will not be stopped they will destroy everything deemed offensive, which is pretty much everything outside of the ideology of the progressive and SJW mindset

 

[doghouse]

I agree, the locals should decide.

Well, we are the ones taking them down, so...

Antifa is living rent free in some of y'alls heads. There were like 50 of those clowns in Charlottesville, tops. About 1,500 white supremacists, and probably 5,000+ people who were peacefully protesting a bunch of assholes running amok in their town, which happens to be right down the highway from where I live and I'm typing this.

I'm generally wearied of all of y'alls silly nonsense in this thread so I just let you carry on, but the fact is Nazis feel it's ok to traipse around the U.S. in the open now and that pisses me off greatly. So I'm going to take a few mintues to point out the utter stupidity of the faux news from Breitbart or whatever interweb cesspit you think is news and repost here.

By the values of our time, this is unacceptable and should be destroyed.

This statement is so retarded that you should feel bad about it.

 

[InstaHate]

I've not thought about it in those terms, "rubbing their faces in it." I don't think that is what is being done, but at the same time, I can see how some in the South (and, like doghouse, I am a Southerner) might feel that way.

At the same time, as to why, there is a large chunk of the American south for whom those statues are a reminder that their great great grandparents were enslaved by the great great grandparents of their coworkers, their mailman, their police officers, their employees, and their neighbors. Those statues celebrate those who fought for the right of those great great grandparents to enslave theirs. And while it might be different if racism wasn't still an issue, especially in the American South, it is. The South still celebrates the Confederacy. Their neighbors celebrate a nation born of the enslavement of their ancestors.

So if it comes between choosing the butthurt of people whose ancestors were enslaved and the butthurt of people who celebrate a nation born of a desire to preserve the unquestionably evil institution of slavery, that's a very easy choice for me to make.

 

[formby]

Hey, I have a crazy idea. Why don't you let us southerners make the decision? Quite unthinkable, I know.

Btw, The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down is a song about the horrors inflicted in war, and having no good choices. We usually sing it very loudly at night after drinking a lot of Bud heavy and it would probably make most of you very uncomfortable.

What worries me with all this is that it takes the focus off today's problems. Quite recently there was a report about modern day slavery in Britain, there is also the issue of child abuse on a very large scale another, kind of slavery. Why are today's students not railing against these outrages rather than raging about a man who is long in his grave?

I do not buy the argument the Black-Bristolians are traumatised every time they walk past a statue of Coltson, or hear his name uttered.

I also don't buy the argument that black Americans are traumatised when they have to walk past a statue of a Confederate general.

There are present issues that are much more worthy of our energies than this.

 

[Lord Buckley]

This statement is so retarded that you should feel bad about it.

It's not retarded, it's a statement of fact: statues are being destroyed on the basis of glorifying the Confederacy. There is a song that can be interpreted as glorifying the Confederacy and General Lee. Why not destroy that? Because the evil folk waiting in the wings, will do this absolutely.

Breitbart, CNN or BBC and Sky News in the UK, they all peddle opinions as news. I don't trust any of them, they're all fake news until proven otherwise.

I admire Trump, albeit an establishment figure of sorts, he successively stormed the reality studio and as he cannot be bought the reaction is interesting to say the least. Jacob Rees Mogg represents a similar dynamic in the UK and may well be about to pull off a similar stunt which I thoroughly applaud and hope is the case.

I've not thought about it in those terms, "rubbing their faces in it." I don't think that is what is being done, but at the same time, I can see how some in the South (and, like doghouse, I am a Southerner) might feel that way.

At the same time, as to why, there is a large chunk of the American south for whom those statues are a reminder that their great great grandparents were enslaved by the great great grandparents of their coworkers, their mailman, their police officers, their employees, and their neighbors. Those statues celebrate those who fought for the right of those great great grandparents to enslave theirs. And while it might be different if racism wasn't still an issue, especially in the American South, it is. The South still celebrates the Confederacy. Their neighbors celebrate a nation born of the enslavement of their ancestors.

So if it comes between choosing the butthurt of people whose ancestors were enslaved and the butthurt of people who celebrate a nation born of a desire to preserve the unquestionably evil institution of slavery, that's a very easy choice for me to make.

But you must acknowledge that there was a romance assigned to the lost cause of the South....greatly romanticised and hence the southern literature, statues and sweeping the evils of slavery under the carpet in the plantation system as pastoral idyll. As you state, the South still celebrates the Confederacy, I'm interested in why and the remnants of this. I also note that amongst the most racist Americans I have ever met have been from Chicago. Southerners the opposite and I've worked with quite a few from the deep south. Although I did sack one once.

 

[Lord Buckley]

What worries me with all this is that it takes the focus off today's problems. Quite recently there was a report about modern day slavery in Britain, there is also the issue of child abuse on a very large scale another, kind of slavery. Why are today's students not railing against these outrages rather than raging about a man who is long in his grave?

I do not buy the argument the Black-Bristolians are traumatised every time they walk past a statue of Coltson, or hear his name uttered.

I also don't buy the argument that black Americans are traumatised when they have to walk past a statue of a Confederate general.

There are present issues that are much more worthy of our energies than this.

What is going on is just an opening skirmish of wider more pernicious removal of historic heritage and that's why it must be resisted.

Sky News disgracefully last week and this week where running with stories about Atlanta being the centre of the white slave industry in the USA. Curiously silent about the UK problem. Grotesque in fact.

The Dutch are much more successful in hiding their own white slavery issue with the (Islamic) "Lover Boys", but like the UK everyone is getting their news online now and not from the MSM which is several times more sanitized than the UK. They also really dig Pat Condell over here, who they consider like an un-PC uncle who speaks the truth where others fall silent.

I was heartened to find that amongst the usual brain washed SJW in my family, others are on the same Youtube channels and the resistance movement is running silent and running deep and they too recognize that this is a culture war and not one of race. It is growing everywhere and I take comfort in this. There is a chance that good and the individual will survive this moment of insanity.

 

[Monkeyface]

I agree, the locals should decide, a load of Antifa types vandalising statues and demolishing them is not the way to go. It looks to an outsider like me, like the tactics of ISIS.

Again as an outsider, I like the historic statues, perhaps I see America as a museum and I can interpret them as without current meaning on identity politics? I certainly don't look at them and think, oh man, these dudes are still fighting the lost cause of the Confederacy and these are rallying points for the few KKK in America. I look at them as historic heritage. The war was awful, slavery evil, but it was fact, it happened and should not be denied.

The Night They Drive Old Dixie Down was written by a Canadian so as I fellow foreigner I feel I have some rights to give an opinion on this: it is about a poor white southerner at the end of the Civil War and as Levon Helm states in his autobiography it was an attempt to evoke the era and "....make General Robert E. Lee come out with all due respect." By the values of our time, this is unacceptable and should be destroyed.

The forces we are unleashing will not be stopped they will destroy everything deemed offensive, which is pretty much everything outside of the ideology of the progressive and SJW mindset

"I certainly don't look at them and think, oh man, these dudes are still fighting the lost cause of the Confederacy and these are rallying points for the few KKK in America."

That's the problem, isn't it? It's not about what you think. Try to walk a mile in someone else's shoes, and I'm sure you can see how others might not enjoy seeing such a statue in their own town.

Either way, the whole statue thing is a red herring. They weren't protesting for or against a statue, but rather the ideology it represents. An ideology that's gaining ground again.

 

[formby]

What is going on is just an opening skirmish of wider more pernicious removal of historic heritage and that's why it must be resisted.

Sky News disgracefully last week and this week where running with stories about Atlanta being the centre of the white slave industry in the USA. Curiously silent about the UK problem. Grotesque in fact.

The Dutch are much more successful in hiding their own white slavery issue with the (Islamic) "Lover Boys", but like the UK everyone is getting their news online now and not from the MSM which is several times more sanitized than the UK. They also really dig Pat Condell over here, who they consider like an un-PC uncle who speaks the truth where others fall silent.

I was heartened to find that amongst the usual brain washed SJW in my family, others are on the same Youtube channels and the resistance movement is running silent and running deep and they too recognize that this is a culture war and not one of race. It is growing everywhere and I take comfort in this. There is a chance that good and the individual will survive this moment of insanity.

The question is, does the destruction / removal of these statues achieve anything. It doesn't. The only way to atone for past injustices is to try and make sure that they never happen again. And one of the ways to achieve this, is through education. There is a reason why Auschwitz was not raised to ground, and it is so that it can act, as a permanent reminder of end point, of man's cruelty to his fellow man.

 

[Lord Buckley]

"I certainly don't look at them and think, oh man, these dudes are still fighting the lost cause of the Confederacy and these are rallying points for the few KKK in America."

That's the problem, isn't it? It's not about what you think. Try to walk a mile in someone else's shoes, and I'm sure you can see how others might not enjoy seeing such a statue in their own town.

Either way, the whole statue thing is a red herring. They weren't protesting for or against a statue, but rather the ideology it represents. An ideology that's gaining ground again.

Exactly, the statue is a red herring. This is not about the statues it is an opening salvo in something much bigger.

The totalitarian ideology that is gaining ground is from the Left. As if a 100 million plus dead in the 20th century from socialist communist experiments never happened and er, well, Venezuela is the ideal if it wasn't for those Americans meddling in their internal affairs.

 

[Monkeyface]

It's not retarded, it's a statement of fact: statues are being destroyed on the basis of glorifying the Confederacy. There is a song that can be interpreted as glorifying the Confederacy and General Lee. Why not destroy that? Because the evil folk waiting in the wings, will do this absolutely.

Breitbart, CNN or BBC and Sky News in the UK, they all peddle opinions as news. I don't trust any of them, they're all fake news until proven otherwise.

I admire Trump, albeit an establishment figure of sorts, he successively stormed the reality studio and as he cannot be bought the reaction is interesting to say the least. Jacob Rees Mogg represents a similar dynamic in the UK and may well be about to pull off a similar stunt which I thoroughly applaud and hope is the case.



But you must acknowledge that there was a romance assigned to the lost cause of the South....greatly romanticised and hence the southern literature, statues and sweeping the evils of slavery under the carpet in the plantation system as pastoral idyll. As you state, the South still celebrates the Confederacy, I'm interested in why and the remnants of this. I also note that amongst the most racist Americans I have ever met have been from Chicago. Southerners the opposite and I've worked with quite a few from the deep south. Although I did sack one once.

Trump cannot be bought? He literally sells his name to anyone that wants to put it on a product. He's the definition of a sellout, a shill. He probably has some debt with shady Russian banks too.

 

[Monkeyface]

Exactly, the statue is a red herring. This is not about the statues it is an opening salvo in something much bigger.

The totalitarian ideology that is gaining ground is from the Left. As if a 100 million plus dead in the 20th century from socialist communist experiments never happened and er, well, Venezuela is the ideal if it wasn't for those Americans meddling in their internal affairs.

I'm afraid you're seeing things again. The Nazis are killing people now, and want a state for their own race. The peaceful protesters aren't killing and want a state for everybody. I can't believe you're supporting Nazi protesters. Has the world forgotten the lessons from WWII?