Disagreeable Menswear Post Of The Day

[ConchitaWurst]

Perhaps there is an equation, similar to buying an engagement ring, how many monthly salaries a bespoke suit should cost?

there are equations for that??

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

there are equations for that??

Yes, three months salary. I called BS on that one!

 

[robertito]

Don't let my wife read this thread.

 

[Scherensammler]

Let's talk specifics. The starting price for a bespoke two-piece in the UK, at the cheaper end, is about £2200. The median salary is about £1840 a month. So a suit costs more than one month's wages, pre-tax.

That's more than most people can afford, and certainly more than anyone can afford before they start working full-time and rise through the ranks. The Oxbridge types who sit for their exams wearing white tie (and later end up editing The Rake) either pay for it out of the family funds, or find a gay sugar daddy (they exist).

When the internet #influencers whine about how everyone is badly dressed, perhaps they should look at how cheap tailoring has been squeezed out of the market by a bunch of arriviste snobs.

If you are on a small income (just as most tailors are) it might be a good idea to put aside a set amount of money each month, whatever you can afford. Sure it will be some months or even years, but you'll get there.
We had a customer who paid into the shop's account on a monthly basis and now there is enough money for another suit.

However, why is nobody complaining about the prices your mechanic charges you per hour as much? It's at least double of what your tailor charges per hour and with modern cars it's no longer a matter of "repairing" things. Just replacing pre-manufactured parts after the car's computer told you which one it is.

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

If you are on a small income (just as most tailors are) it might be a good idea to put aside a set amount of money each month, whatever you can afford. Sure it will be some months or even years, but you'll get there.
We had a customer who paid into the shop's account on a monthly basis and now there is enough money for another suit.

However, why is nobody complaining about the prices your mechanic charges you per hour as much? It's at least double of what your tailor charges per hour and with modern cars it's no longer a matter of "repairing" things. Just replacing pre-manufactured parts after the car's computer told you which one it is.

Unless you're replacing the propeller on your vintage Spitfire, you're not going to need to save up for years to visit the local mechanic to fix your car radiator. If you need to save up for years to buy a suit, then you have a problem, unless you're wearing for births, marriages and funerals.

 

[Scherensammler]

Unless you're replacing the propeller on your vintage Spitfire, you're not going to need to save up for years to visit the local mechanic to fix your car radiator. If you need to save up for years to buy a suit, then you have a problem, unless you're wearing for births, marriages and funerals.

Mechanics/ car dealerships in Germany charge around 100,- Euros per hour. Add to that new parts at dealership prices and you get into the range of a nice new suit. Depending on what needs to be done, of course.

 

[formby]

If you are on a small income (just as most tailors are) it might be a good idea to put aside a set amount of money each month, whatever you can afford. Sure it will be some months or even years, but you'll get there.
We had a customer who paid into the shop's account on a monthly basis and now there is enough money for another suit.

However, why is nobody complaining about the prices your mechanic charges you per hour as much? It's at least double of what your tailor charges per hour and with modern cars it's no longer a matter of "repairing" things. Just replacing pre-manufactured parts after the car's computer told you which one it is.

A garage, especially a main dealer has far higher overheads than a tailor, so its not really a fair comparison (Savile Row [and Neapolitan based, Russian car dealer cum tailors] excepted maybe).

 

[Scherensammler]

A garage, especially a main dealer has far higher overheads than a tailor, so its not really a fair comparison (Savile Row excepted maybe).

You might be right!
Why else would a car dealer travel from Russia to a tailor on streets on Naples?

 

[formby]

You might be right!
Why else would a car dealer travel from Russia to tailor on streets on Naples?

See edit.

 

[FriendCustomer]

Just because you can't afford bespoke, that doesn't mean you can't look good and class yourself as a sartorialist, whatever that means.

You don't need to be rich, some of the sharpest dressers in the UK use to be the striving working class.

I don't think access to bespoke and luxury priced items is meaningful in the equation of looking great.

At a minimum I guess this depends on the availability of stylish, decent quality and affordable rtw. I think those days, are long behind us. If i remember correctly these sharp striving working classes might even have had access to afforable local tailoring. Also long gone.

I guess another option is thrifiting. This can certainly be done well if one doesn’t mind the occasional shit stain or moth hole.

 

[Scherensammler]

At a minimum I guess this depends on the availability of stylish, decent quality and affordable rtw. I think those days, are long behind us. If i remember correctly these sharp striving working classes might even have had access to afforable local tailoring. Also long gone.

True, there used to be men's outfitters in larger numbers and even the department stores used to have a wide range of styles, colours and sizes. At affordable prices with decent quality of make and material. Most shops even offered alterations in-house!
Nowadays it's mostly about "fashion trends", so if you don't have the right figure you're f*cked!

See edit.

Sorry, forgot an "a"! See edit!

 

[QuandoDio]

If you are on a small income (just as most tailors are) it might be a good idea to put aside a set amount of money each month, whatever you can afford. Sure it will be some months or even years, but you'll get there.



We had a customer who paid into the shop's account on a monthly basis and now there is enough money for another suit.

However, why is nobody complaining about the prices your mechanic charges you per hour as much? It's at least double of what your tailor charges per hour and with modern cars it's no longer a matter of "repairing" things. Just replacing pre-manufactured parts after the car's computer told you which one it is.

Maybe even decades because a) Tailor's prices don't sit still. Especially the igent ones, who have atmospheric rises b) The Hoi polloi haven't really had a pay increase in years, maybe even decades. In fact, most have had a real time pay cut c) There are other worthier expenses that keep creeping up etc

True, there used to be men's outfitters in larger numbers and even the department stores used to have a wide range of styles, colours and sizes. At affordable prices with decent quality of make and material. Most shops even offered alterations in-house!
Nowadays it's mostly about "fashion trends", so if you don't have the right figure you're f*cked!

Is there even a right figure? I have more or less maintained the same figure for over 15 years give or take seven pounds or so and unless you are a profanator bum-sniffing bampot, one struggles to find a decent fitting clothing in the right silhouette without paying astronomical prices! 300 - 800 pounds for a pair of RTW trousers? Puke!

I walked into a few shops over the weekend to try on some trousers ( i haven't bought RTW trousers other than the occasional denim/chinos in over a decade) and the experience brought home why i don't bother. Too tight everywhere , low-rise aplenty, flimsy fabric, piss poor construction, poor value for money.

Bar accessories and knitwear (MTM or bespoke knitwear is truly ridiculous in every shape /form), most prêt-à-porter sucks

 

[Scherensammler]

Is there even a right figure? I have more or less maintained the same figure for over 15 years give or take seven pounds or so and unless you are a profanator bum-sniffing bampot, one struggles to find a decent fitting clothing in the right silhouette without paying astronomical prices! 300 - 800 pounds for a pair of RTW trousers? Puke!

RTW used to have many size options. Tall, short, regular and even belly figures and half sizes. Now you are lucky to find tall, short and regular.
Every now and again the industry measures a whole bunch of people to get a set of average sizes, based on chest circumference and height to determine the size variations. They then create a block pattern after those measurements. So if that block is rubbish the resulting garments will be rubbish. So unless your figure matches the parameters of that block there will be fit issues.
The industry tries to get as many figures as possible into a certain size to save money, hence the often big armholes and so on.

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

At a minimum I guess this depends on the availability of stylish, decent quality and affordable rtw. I think those days, are long behind us. If i remember correctly these sharp striving working classes might even have had access to afforable local tailoring. Also long gone.

I guess another option is thrifiting. This can certainly be done well if one doesn’t mind the occasional shit stain or moth hole.

The last of the small time provincial town tailors pretty much died in the early 1990s in the UK. I noticed here the one in Gouda closed a couple of years back. So access to affordable local tailoring has vanished. And back in the day, 50s and early 60s you could get fitted for your suit in the local pub in the UK. Tailors would come round a couple of times a year.

If you're on a budget, thrifting is likely your best option with RTW remaining bleak. Online has helped, for specific items, but likely impacts the small scale outfitters negatively.

You also have the effect of the dumbing down of dress standards with casual Primark and the likes pushing the cheap and cheery side of dressing into ever more throwaway crap.

One thing I do notice, those local alteration stores weighted towards Iranian expats over here seem to be doing extremely well and there's lots of them everywhere.

However, why is nobody complaining about the

Maybe even decades because a) Tailor's prices don't sit still. Especially the igent ones, who have atmospheric rises b) The Hoi polloi haven't really had a pay increase in years, maybe even decades. In fact, most have had a real time pay cut c) There are other worthier expenses that keep creeping up etc

Is there even a right figure? I have more or less maintained the same figure for over 15 years give or take seven pounds or so and unless you are a profanator bum-sniffing bampot, one struggles to find a decent fitting clothing in the right silhouette without paying astronomical prices! 300 - 800 pounds for a pair of RTW trousers? Puke!

I walked into a few shops over the weekend to try on some trousers ( i haven't bought RTW trousers other than the occasional denim/chinos in over a decade) and the experience brought home why i don't bother. Too tight everywhere , low-rise aplenty, flimsy fabric, piss poor construction, poor value for money.

Bar accessories and knitwear (MTM or bespoke knitwear is truly ridiculous in every shape /form), most prêt-à-porter sucks

I can get flannels made up here for €225-250 and wearable off-the-peg ones cost me last time circa €175. That's a lot of dosh for someone who is at the start of their career in say an expensive city like Amsterdam or London. It's a lot for someone on the average wage with a family too.

When you start talking about bespoke suits for GBP 2200 and upwards, the cruel reality is that your clientele is going to be limited. Bespoke really only has one place to go: high niche and price.

 

[rdiaz]

RTW used to have many size options. Tall, short, regular and even belly figures and half sizes. Now you are lucky to find tall, short and regular.
Every now and again the industry measures a whole bunch of people to get a set of average sizes, based on chest circumference and height to determine the size variations. They then create a block pattern after those measurements. So if that block is rubbish the resulting garments will be rubbish. So unless your figure matches the parameters of that block there will be fit issues.
The industry tries to get as many figures as possible into a certain size to save money, hence the often big armholes and so on.

I have a hard time believing the deep armholes in RTW come from average measurements. That would mean most men have elephant arms. My guess is that the average joe doesn't like to feel the armhole against the armpits and thus the waist level depth. It's just horrible.

 

[Scherensammler]

My guess is that the average joe doesn't like to feel the armhole against the armpits and thus the waist level depth. It's just horrible.

This.
Plus they have to compensate for various shoulder heights and arm sizes.
A lot of the companies seem to use modified old blocks and a bunch of untalented pattern makers who cannot make a brand new pattern from scratch that actually works.
One of the reasons why local (cheap) tailors vanished in the decades after the war was the competition from well made RTW and MTM. At lower prices with the same cloths and often better quality and fit. Thanks to top tailors working for those companies and well trained staff in general (and without front fussing until the late 60's).
But then manufacturing was moved elsewhere, factories closed and that was pretty much it. Maybe a handful of higher end makers remained in Europe after that.

 

[formby]

Every town is Britain had at least one tailor, cities, typically dozens. Leeds was probably the city that had the most.

 

[rdiaz]

I know they have to compensate for several arm sizes, but come on, I have huge arms and yet there's just too much armhole. I can actually fit a leg in most RTW. At some point it becomes disproportionate, someone who fits in a size 40 for example can't have arms the size of the armhole that comes with it, unless he's a extreme bodybuilder...

 

[Scherensammler]

I know they have to compensate for several arm sizes, but come on, I have huge arms and yet there's just too much armhole. I can actually fit a leg in most RTW. At some point it becomes disproportionate, someone who fits in a size 40 for example can't have arms the size of the armhole that comes with it, unless he's a extreme bodybuilder...

What I said: Old blocks from a time when huge armholes were in fashion (late 1980's to early 2000's).
Those talentless pattern makers working in those companies can't do anything but just make small changes because the people who originally designed the garments have retired or didn't know shit either.
Then there is the other side of the coin, garments so tight that people barely fit into them.
Lets not forget the marketing of the fashion industry (which includes our beloved "influencers") which makes people think wearing ill fitting garments means expressing one's individuality or some BS.

 

[TheUntermensch]

If I had to start all over again, back when I was buying my first suit (i.e. with my own money) I'd take out a loan, get one bespoke suit, and steer away from RTW. I'd just have the one well-fitting suit at GBP 2200 instead of multiple shoite ones at GBP 300 plus lots of GBP for tailoring. I'd save money that way. Ditto for shoes. I've had multiple soles coming unglued.

Oh and f**k the #influencers. They used to provide useful knowledge until about three years ago. Now they all compete in showing off. There are still many things I don't know about tailoring, and I'm keen to learn.

 

[rdiaz]

What I said: Old blocks from a time when huge armholes were in fashion (late 1980's to early 2000's).

It looks like most spanish tailors are stuck in those ages, as bespoke here is characterised by fugly low armholes much like RTW. I used to do MTM with a local tailor and it took me a lot of effort to convince him that I wanted higher armholes. He was trying to convince me that deeper was more comfortable, when I actually needed the extra mobility higher armholes provide for my daily job... the 80's have done so much damage.

 

[QuandoDio]

The whole influencer thing amuses me - mainly because they consistently provide a steady stream of baloney but hey ho.

Compare the old output of Will of ASW (Before the hanging project pollution) to the likes of Crompton and it is night and day.

 

[Scherensammler]

It looks like most spanish tailors are stuck in those ages, as bespoke here is characterised by fugly low armholes much like RTW. I used to do MTM with a local tailor and it took me a lot of effort to convince him that I wanted higher armholes. He was trying to convince me that deeper was more comfortable, when I actually needed the extra mobility higher armholes provide for my daily job... the 80's have done so much damage.

Isn't the standard suit jacket called "americana" in Spain? I think that cut dates further back than the 80's...

 

[rdiaz]

Isn't the standard suit jacket called "americana" in Spain? I think that cut dates further back than the 80's...

Yep, americana. I hate that word though and always use chaqueta... in any case, the cut is horrible. So boxy.

 

[Lumpen]

It looks like most spanish tailors are stuck in those ages, as bespoke here is characterised by fugly low armholes much like RTW. I used to do MTM with a local tailor and it took me a lot of effort to convince him that I wanted higher armholes. He was trying to convince me that deeper was more comfortable, when I actually needed the extra mobility higher armholes provide for my daily job... the 80's have done so much damage.

jajajaa, that is the excuse of bad Spanish untailors, and what they say is just the contrary to reality, they just want to FOOL the client since big low armholes is the easy thing to do, high ones require the skill and technique they DO NOT HAVE.

Madrid untailors: bunch of narcissistic WEIRDOS.

On the only tailoring school of Spain, they teach tailoring on some weekends, while on Naples, 10 years at 14 hours a day are needed.

Would you leave your live at hands of a surgeon who got the diploma on a few weeks, or other who took 10 years to achieve perfection?

Bad thing is that scammers go multimillionaire and real Neapolitan master tailors some just do for a humble life.


Spanish shitte from a Valencia tailor with Madrid style vs Italian true style

ITALIAN MASTERWORK

BONUS TRACK: MADRID BLOGGER SHILL BUFFONE, THE ONE WHO FOOLS A METER OF HOLLAND AND SHERRY CASHMERE COST 1500 EUROS.

Directors cut, 2 of the most rich businessman of Spain and the ex boss of the county of Madrid, now in jail by thieve.

3 different Madrid untailors: same tailoring issues, media +-3000 euros for unsuit, who gets the %, this blogger who fools this fools.

I do not know who is more criminal, if this thieve on jail by corrupted or the criminal who sewn this lapels or even the blind one who cutted the sleeves, oh wait, why to calculate a sleeve per client, as the rules say, if they can use the exact same sleeve pattern for every client, no matter if is a bodybuilder, a slim man or a 250 kilos one?

All will pay him 3000e... and 300 to the bloggers as the buffone to repeat over and over, they are the “best” tailors in the world. Also the one who flat pressed the lapels needs jail, t

The one who recommended cut away collar for a president as well.

Larrainzar 3000e crap low armhole Hugo Boss 500e looking and fitting

 

[robertito]

I would be very much surprised if Roca uses a Madrid tailor, he is more likely to go to a Catalan tailor, (Bel and Cia) isn't he?
The valenciano boy is using Puebla as tailor?

 

[robertito]

Isn't the standard suit jacket called "americana" in Spain? I think that cut dates further back than the 80's...

An Americana is an 'odd jacket' not a suit jacket, The reason for the name is that the first ones came from America worn by emigrants returning to Spain and from UK.

 

[rdiaz]

An Americana is an 'odd jacket' not a suit jacket, The reason for the name is that the first ones came from America worn by emigrants returning to Spain and from UK.

It's not uncommon to refer to the suit jacket as americana too. I hear it a lot.

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

Sounds dreadful, the things tailors get away with on the continent.

 

[rdiaz]

Lumpen , in the end I got the high armholes. Some verri comfortable jackets that were not even half bad for MTM. At least the tailor would not scam his clients, he offered MTM and that's how he sold it, at competitive prices. I got a couple jackets made in entry level fabrics for less than €200 each iirc.Too bad the man retired.

 

[Lumpen]

I would be very much surprised if Roca uses a Madrid tailor, he is more likely to go to a Catalan tailor, (Bel and Cia) isn't he?
The valenciano boy is using Puebla as tailor?

I have seen both Pujol the ex catalonian president who scammed 1500 millon euros dressed all the time on Larrainzar unsuits, same as this masonic lawyer . It seems this plenty of complexes corrupted masons need “to be “ at the same level as the King ( not only in corruption) and they can´t book other tailor as “the King tailor”.

Bel & cia, 450 euros for a badspoke shirt on fabrics 60/2 (4 euros per meter) with 1 mm. button, with the cost all 1 Neapolitan button they do the full shirt, awful quality but, OHHH hand made buttonholes, with the stitches of a single proper Neapolitan buttonhole, this catalonian scammers do 3 shirts, I almost cried when I inspected a “shit” on that shop. Also what crap of interlining, I guess is Manley, a Catalonian made in China one who puts English name to fool people.

Puebla: a wannabe Jaime Gallo. Who on his sane mind would try to copy the worst Spanish pretentious? Another as him... I guess because the first went multitrillionaire.


Jaime Gallo interview by the arstocrat: A shirtmaker can´t be tailor and a tailor can´t be shirtmaker.

Neapolitan “career” of high tailoring, start on shirts 4 years until achieve perfection as Sarto did, then start with trousers, total 10 years.

Madrid: 2 weeks to go, anyway their clients won´t realice a Zara shirt with dubbed Tanga tag repriced x 20 times more, so who cares, I am the wolf of Wall Street Gran Via edition, I scam everybody because I am the best.

I can´t live a single day without being highly stoned, so I also do masonic meetings and charge my idiots for a year fee, so they believe are “ the chosen ones”, this way I can fool them English untailors, Cacarruti unties, fake old whiskys who personally I drank the bottle the night before and replaced the liquoir with a syringe while peeing etc etc.

I resell Wallmart 1 dollar polos at 350 with Tanga tag!

I am the lizard king
I can do anything

I am blogger, the wolf of Gran Via.
I scam them all.

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

I am the lizard king
I can do anything

I am blogger, the wolf of Gran Via.
I scam them all.

View attachment 26563

Tailors scattered on Savile Row cutting....

 

[Lumpen]

It looks like most spanish tailors are stuck in those ages, as bespoke here is characterised by fugly low armholes much like RTW. I used to do MTM with a local tailor and it took me a lot of effort to convince him that I wanted higher armholes. He was trying to convince me that deeper was more comfortable, when I actually needed the extra mobility higher armholes provide for my daily job... the 80's have done so much damage.

Those idiots have been doing the same unjacket they learnt on their “school” when young until they die of old.

See the awful attempts of Larrainzar to copy the Neapolitan style, hilarious. A Frankenstein of different styles and features with awful result.

They do not have idea about tailoring.

Sarto studied the styles per decades way before being tailor. I hope he doesn´t do the same shirt forever...

 

[fxh]

Lumpen is talking about huge arseholes?

 

[spencer096]

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

Those idiots have been doing the same unjacket they learnt on their “school” when young until they die of old.

See the awful attempts of Larrainzar to copy the Neapolitan style, hilarious. A Frankenstein of different styles and features with awful result.

They do not have idea about tailoring.

Sarto studied the styles per decades way before being tailor. I hope he doesn´t do the same shirt forever...

I don't understand it, on my trips to Madrid, the senior management all have well made suits and the restaurants we go to at lunch time are filled with the same. Are the elite suffering from an emperor's new clothes syndrome?

 

[rdiaz]

I don't understand it, on my trips to Madrid, the senior management all have well made suits and the restaurants we go to at lunch time are filled with the same. Are the elite suffering from an emperor's new clothes syndrome?

I see a lot of diplomatics at my workplace, and even one of our ministers - save for a few exceptions, the suits are not at all well made. Or should I say well cut.. the make seems fine but of course I can't just stare at the buttonholes and other details without getting asked questions.

 

[Lumpen]

I don't understand it, on my trips to Madrid, the senior management all have well made suits and the restaurants we go to at lunch time are filled with the same. Are the elite suffering from an emperor's new clothes syndrome?

Maybe you was high as this to do not see it?

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

Maybe you was high as this to do not see it?

Not quite, I wouldn't go to Spain to get that high.

I find Madrid rather conservative, as is Spanish culture in general despite Pedro Almodovar.

By way of contrast, this week the new Dutch cabinet is unveiled, plenty of monstrosities going on there, the biggest one being the mohair freaky shoes chap next to the King on the right:

 

[Jupiter]

Not quite, I wouldn't go to Spain to get that high.

I find Madrid rather conservative, as is Spanish culture in general despite Pedro Almodovar.

By way of contrast, this week the new Dutch cabinet is unveiled, plenty of monstrosities going on there, the biggest one being the mohair freaky shoes chap next to the King on the right:

View attachment 26578

Degenerate royal elites.