Money and Wardrobe

Allen Smithee

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Another fine DW topic taken off the track
trainwreck03.jpg
 

Russell Street

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Both assessments are true. Anyone deviating too far from a rack size will indeed do better with custom-made clothing. And bespoke will allow an ignorant and/or tasteless customer stylist to truly express their ignorance/tastelessness more perfectly.
BTW, this is why my favorite people are the thrifters. While it's nice that Vox can make a great outfit for the cost of a car, I'm more impressed by those working within constraints.
 

Russell Street

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The well-fitting rack suit looks better than the priciest ill-fitting suit.

There are people that can wear old Gap stuff and look better than some of these spendy creeps.
It's a lot like lying about your age. Lie upward, then people will think you look younger. When your fit is crap and you got it from ebay and the church thrift store, so what? When you spent gobs on groupthink-approved vendors and tailors and still failed, there is greater shame!
I daresay that odd physical proportions are endemic to the clothing enthusiast. We need clothing to flatter more. Sadly, this means custom is really the best solution in most cases too. But it's no cure-all.
 

Thruth

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gufasd, money can be the root of all sartorial evil. you are correct that when well spent, having money can result in a well fitting suit or garment. But it has to be combined with several or all of these other things: knowledge (your own), proper professional assistance e.g. bespoke tailor, MTM fitter, sales associate at a brick and mortar shop, good alteration tailor, or Mariano or Luca the STYLISTS at LH

There are plenty of examples of poorly executed bespoke commissions on SF and elsewhere - and these were done in respected houses - but chosen wisely, bespoke will result in a good result. But this costs you $$$. Nor should you expect perfection the first go round.

MTM can work depending on your stature and how the various MTM cuts are suited to your shape. This too will cost you. Online MTM is a crapshoot.

Off-the-rack RTW + alterations will give you good results if you happen to fit that particular cut and the alterations do not require major alterations such as shoulders or major jacket length adjustments. Not all sales associates know what they are talking about so implicitly trusting them regarding size and fit recommendations will result in a poorer outcome.

Lucky thrifting, eBaying, or buying from SF's marketplace can result in you getting a high quality garment (new or used) at low cost as compared to retail or MTM and coupled with proper alterations represents a solid deal, but this takes time and patience.

Buying someone else's MTM or bespoke may be the stuff of SF & IGents but it is a losing proposition in most cases because it has been altered far more than you may be able to affordably adapt it to your dimensions.
 

Russell Street

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Re: thifting - it's just a bigger accomplishment to achieve the same with less. And your dollar gets more variety. One great MTM suit or like a dozen decent, altered thriftjobs.
IME, the tailor hates it, especially when you are an existing customer, when you come in his shop wearing an old tweed coat from the Goodwill.
 

Thruth

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Re: thifting - it's just a bigger accomplishment to achieve the same with less. And your dollar gets more variety. One great MTM suit or like a dozen decent, altered thriftjobs.
IME, the tailor hates it, especially when you are an existing customer, when you come in his shop wearing an old tweed coat from the Goodwill.

but you keep coming in to see him so he should not be all "I haz a sad 'cause you thriftz"
 

Russell Street

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I'm trying to drop the hint about what an unstructured shoulder is... which brings up the point that certain things are actually easier to get vintage/thrift than new.
 

Thruth

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I'm trying to drop the hint about what an unstructured shoulder is... which brings up the point that certain things are actually easier to get vintage/thrift than new.

what is his response to the shoulder conversation?
 

Russell Street

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It doesn't look good yadda yadda. My uneven shoulders need some padding and he gets it down to a minimal amount but he's not fully down with the more casual soft look. I'm not all out for it either but some things I want that way. I also wanted to show the j-hook vent. He opposed patch pockets and edge stitching on my blazer too, but I insisted. This should prolly be in the bespoke adventures thread.
 
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LelandJ

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Maybe you should find another tailor since his styling ability is compromised?
 

Russell Street

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Maybe you should find another tailor since his styling ability is compromised?
Maybe after I work with him and go to eleven!
No, he's very competent, but has biases sometimes counter to my own. And as the OP here states, he's essentially MTM priced, so whatever.
 

Thruth

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Maybe after I work with him and go to eleven!
No, he's very competent, but has biases sometimes counter to my own. And as the OP here states, he's essentially MTM priced, so whatever.

What is his default house cut?
 

Betelgeuse

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A lot of people nowadays - and not only young people - seem to think that they shouldn't have to save up for anything. They want it now

This. I think in the world we live right now this is all what matters. And matters to a lot of people because of status. They want the last car model eventhough they still owe the shirt they are wearing.

Before SF I bought a lot of brand suits, Giorgio Armani, Armani Collezioni and Zegna, including Zegna and Hugo Boss shirts, Zegna ties and Prada shoes. I spent around $15,000 that I borrowed from my mom. I payed her but then I joined SF. Read about those brands and felt bad. But what I really din't have a clue was how a suit should fit. They were poor fitting. And then I bulked up and sold them fot not even 1/4 of the money I spent.

Now I understand fit and some other basic stuff and I try to find things like that. eBay has been a nice place to find nice jackets and SuitSupply (for jackets) that fits nicely with minor alterations and not so expensive. Luxire for shirts and trousers. And I believe my game growed a bit without spending that much. Wish I knew that before.
 

Thruth

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I'm slightly confused, I understand that thrifting is cheap but I don't understand how everyone is saying m2m and bespoke pricing. To me the pricing is whatever I pay, is there generally some accepted price range for these services? I find that I can get m2m stuff from third world countries for less than department store prices.

Well that is the issue. If you are going with established known bespoke houses, you pay significant amounts of $$$. Savile Row bespoke suits are thousands of pounds from the known names. Less known UK bespoke tailors are cheaper but still relatively expensive compared to RTW. Same for European or American known tailors. Everything is relative. Chan in Hong Kong might be on the order of $1500 for a bespoke suit of excellent qulaity and up. There are traveling Hong Kong Tailors that charge far less but quality is hit and miss. You can have bespoke done in Thailand and other places for much cheaper but you have to get there and there is no guarantee.

Depends on where you are in the world and you have to compare apples to apples.

Same with MTM. There are differences between Tom Ford MTM and Suit Supply.

In Canada, where I am, there are only a handful of tailors doing true bespoke garments. There may be others but they are off the radar screen for most. Minimal entry level is $1200 and that goes up with fabric chosen. There are lots of tailors that throw around "bespoke" & "custom" but they are really MTM. Tweaking existing patterns. That is fine if you know that from the outset.

Thrifting compared to high quality retail RTW is a fraction of department store, menswear shops etc. prices at least in North America

Where are you located?
 

Thruth

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I understand your POV. If Luxire works well for you then that is great. I think Betelgeuse Betelgeuse has had some experience with Luxire.

I don't know where the cut off would be in terms of what Luxire offers in relation to high end RTW brands favoured by iGents.

How does it compare to high end MTM or bespoke? I have no experience.

Do you order online? How do you interact with humans to make changes or is this all via email?

I can appreciate the value for $$$ wrt the SWD brands you listed. Less so I think with MC. But I could be wrong
 

Betelgeuse

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I understand your POV. If Luxire works well for you then that is great. I think Betelgeuse Betelgeuse has had some experience with Luxire.

I don't know where the cut off would be in terms of what Luxire offers in relation to high end RTW brands favoured by iGents.

How does it compare to high end MTM or bespoke? I have no experience.

Do you order online? How do you interact with humans to make changes or is this all via email?

I can appreciate the value for $$$ wrt the SWD brands you listed. Less so I think with MC. But I could be wrong

One of the wonders of Luxire (or thing you will need to work with them) is that they can fullfill evrything you want. You will just need to make a lot of adjustments to nail the perfect fit for you. I haven't since I don't have a lot of time and I feel comfortable with the fit right now but there are still somethings that if changed or corrected perfect would be very good.
 

doghouse

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I get better customer service by far from people online and find it much easier to buy from people I never meet.

I'm not saying you can't get great service over the 'net, I get good service from Competitive Cyclist, Onward Reserve, and a few others, but I can tell you there is no better service than face to face with a top notch tailoring house.
 

Thruth

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What do you feel that Henry Poole offers that Luxire does not apart from the name? I'm truly interested in the benefits of bespoke tailoring when MTM offers me such a good fit. I understand some people might not have the best fit or experience with MTM, but I fail to see the benefits of paying more for what seems to be no benefit.

I'll defer to doghouse doghouse to speak to his experiences. I posted that to give a sense of history of a firm that has made bespoke suits, jackets, coats for 200 years. They represent all that bespoke tailoring offers. Some of it is intangible.

If Luxire provides you with satisfaction then there is no reason to go elsewhere.

Do you only get trousers or do you get suits & jackets?
 

Russell Street

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I see quite a few of them mixing high and low end brands (whether it's rte, mtm or bespoke) all the time.
I do this all the time, and since provenance and price is kind of irrelevant once I've bought it, it's totally unintentional. I'd fare poorer if I deliberately tried to contrive a "something old, something new, something cheap, something uxurious" look.
In general I believe that the in person "high end" mtm or bespoke clothing caries a high price tag ...due to overhead from the location
My tailor, in a horribly traffic-ridden Spanish-speaking area, is quite open open the fact that his prices would more than double if he were across the river in NYC.
Trousers are not as complex and demanding as a coat, in terms of construction or fit. If I thought that Luxire could deal with my crooked hips as well as full custom (~$225-275), I'd consider it.
If Luxire provides you with satisfaction then there is no reason to go elsewhere.
This. Don't seek better for some sense of entitlement or escalation. Do it to solve problems or get what is truly wanted. To do so for other reasons is frivolous dragon-chasing that will gain little.
 

doghouse

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What do you feel that Henry Poole offers that Luxire does not apart from the name? I'm truly interested in the benefits of bespoke tailoring when MTM offers me such a good fit. I understand some people might not have the best fit or experience with MTM, but I fail to see the benefits of paying more for what seems to be no benefit.

Firstly, I don't advocate anybody doing anything. Find out what your own aesthetic is and learn how to best express it. It may be footy pajamas, it may be a dinner jacket, that's up to you to decide. The dollar value of your attire has exactly zero to do with it.

Secondly, if you went to a tailor that treated you like a rube, was pretentious, and otherwise made you uncomfortable, then you were in the wrong place.

Beyond just Henry Poole, a good tailor will give you something to lean on with your ideas, suggestions on improving fit that you won't know on your own, and access to a lot of fabrics and design. It will also give you a comfortable environment to hang out. I enjoy the visit as much as the garb. The notion you can get the same fit from RTW or MTM is a fallacy, but you have to balance that with whether or not the difference matters in what you are trying to accomplish, and the fact that there are certainly some trainwrecks that come from bespoke tailoring . All of the above adds value beyond internet ordering. Its really your call on whether the value helps you get where you want to go.
 

Thruth

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As doghouse doghouse put so well, does anyone need to do bespoke? No. It is a personal choice. Can it provide something more over what you get at Luxire? Only you know for sure. Maybe not now, maybe never.

I'm old. I like to do things in person. Do I purchase clothing online? Yes. Would I buy an MTM suit online? No. But that is just me.

For me, the difference is that although I now know that I have a dipped shoulder that needs to be taken into account and other peculiarities that we all have to varying extents, many of these were pointed out by a tailor and the resultant jacket is much better because it was made with these things in mind. The ability to discuss fabrics, pockets and various elements in person is valuable to me. There is a discussion, a negotiation, and two-way conversation that flows, which for me is invaluable. That may not be important to others which is fine.

You find your comfort zone. It sounds like you've found yours so don't change unless you want to.

It sounds like you are far more rational than many, which in itself is the real advantage versus being either a clueless tool who won't learn or a domineering martinet who sends shivers up his tailor's spine.
 

LelandJ

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gufasd,

When you say SZ do you mean the typical all black goth ninja drop crotch rick? I don't think I've ever seen anyone make a transition from that style to anything remotely CM. Can you explain the style transition you're in?

Bespoke definitely offers a benefit for more structured jackets, but in my experience with unstructured all I ever really need my non-bespoke tailor to do is take in the back and the sleeves and I'm content.
 
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Jimmy Frost Mellor

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It does bring me joy, but perhaps not enough to justify the cost. All that extra money I would save could be used on traveling with loved ones for example, which I'm sure I'd enjoy more. Or save up more for a rainy day, or invest so I can create a steady stream of income next to my salary.

For example, I have 12 pairs of shoes at the moment, but I don't wear most of them. During the week I wear black cap toes, of which I have four pairs. So, for during the weekends I'd need a pair of loafers, boots and perhaps long wings/gunboats. That's 7 shoes, which means I have nearly double than what would be necessary. The same goes for suits, odd jackets, trousers, jackets, etc.

So, I have all that I need and could possibly wear, and I'm still looking to buy more! I just realized if I were to continue along this path I would end up with lots of bespoke suits at $5k a pop and lots of expensive shoes, perhaps 30 pairs, which I couldn't wear anyways, and lots of coats and jackets.

My salary will (hopefully) go up fast enough that I could afford it, but even when I'm at $500k+ in about 5-7 years I'd still be giving up other things in exchange for clothes. I've decided that's not worth it for me.

http://www.styleforum.net/t/375309/noodles-good-natured-advice-thread/15300_100#post_7520422
 

Rambo

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Those last two pages are enough to make someone want to go on a killing spree.
 

Monkeyface

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What's wrong with that, jimmy? £350k+ is very normal for a VP/Director in banking, perhaps even below average. A survey released a couple of weeks ago showed the average salary for a 30-35 year old in my position is £429k.

Anyway, if you were to read onwards, you would see that I was trying to say that even if I were to make that much, bespoke still wouldn't be worth it for me.
Also, this whole thread was started because I voiced concerns about spending too much.
 
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Jimmy Frost Mellor

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The average annual earnings of full-time workers in the UK are £26,500 in the year to April 2012.

429k is about 16 times average income.

No comment
 
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Jimmy Frost Mellor

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What a week for greed, dishonesty and incompetence.

Royal Bank of Scotland couldn't serve its customers because its computers failed; Barclays was fined £290m for trying to manipulate the money markets; other banks will soon be confessing to the same sin and paying their own hefty fines. And now RBS, Barclays, Lloyds and HSBC – the UK's big four – are compensating small businesses who were hoodwinked into buying complex insurance that they did not need.

"What I hope is that everyone – everyone – understands that something went very wrong with the UK banking industry and we need to put it right," declared Sir Mervyn King, governor of the Bank of England, on Friday. At one level, this was a statement of the bleedin' obvious. But King also sounded like a headmaster casting off his frustrations. He seemed to be : you've been caught red-handed and your punishment will hurt.

The frustrations, perhaps, are born of banks' and bankers' successes in the past four years in protecting their power bases and privileges. In the face of regulators' demands to preserve capital, the high-pay culture has survived. Bob Diamond at Barclays collected £17m last year, an astonishing sum given that the board will have known that the Libor skeleton was in the cupboard and Diamond himself had described the bank's financial results as unacceptable.

Meanwhile, the debate on structural reform of the industry was overrun by barely disguised threats. Don't push us too hard, the banks warned the politicians, because we are your best hope of reviving the economy. It's a line that looks outrageous in light of the mis-selling revelations.
 

Rambo

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What's wrong with that, journeyman? £350k+ is very normal for VP/Director in banking, perhaps even below average. A survey released a couple of weeks ago showed thr average salary for a 30-35 year old in my position is £429k.

Anyway, if you were to read onwards, you would see that I was trying to say that even if I were to make that much, bespoke still wouldn't be worth it for me.
Also, this whole thread was started because I voiced concerns about spending too much.
What did Journeyman have to do with this?
 

Monkeyface

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Apologies, edited already!

When it comes to pay, that's not a debate I'm looking to get into at the moment. I had nothing to do with the crisis, as I was still in high school. I make an honest living, as I don't talk to corporates or retail. The guys I talk to all are highly educated and very smart, and know very well what kind of risks they are/aren't taking. They're more likely to pull one over on me than I on them. Anyways, I'll never do anything dodgy, as there's plenty of money to be made with being honest and straightforward. It's also just morally wrong. Besides, if you bring in xxmm of risk weighted profit a year, isn't it fair that you get a certain percentage of that?

Anyway, this debate does not belong in this thread.
 
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Rambo

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No, it does not. I was rather enjoying this and hope to keep it going.
 

Monkeyface

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Agreed, Rambo. Probably best just to delete the previous posts, as this debate could go on forever.
 

Rambo

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Agreed, Rambo. Probably best just to delete the previous posts, as this debate could go on forever.
I'll leave it alone for now. Hopefully Jimmy Frost Mellor will be able to restrain himself and we can proceed from here. If it keeps spiraling out of control I'll wipe the slate clean.
 
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