The Elite: It's a Big Club and You're Not in it

doghouse said:
Fucking elite kids.
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"Osama, Osama, why do you disrespect your family in this way. Living in a cave like a poor instead of building the company. Always 'Kill the infidels' 'America is Satan' enough with that shit already. Time for you to get a real job"
 
Thruth said:
But to follow your arguement, the elites may be gaining an unfair advantage but so to is the small farmer paid not to grow tobacco or paid to grow corn. Or people who can compete on equal footing for jobs or entrance to university but take advantage of affirmative action schemes.

The actions of whomever does not impact my life unless their use of loopholes disadvantages me directly.

As far as I am concerned I am as unfettered as i want to be
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You may choose to live off grid and say the same thing. It's basically irrelevant.

That farmer that's paid to farm corn is a knock on to the massive structure of farm subsidies that exists. The little farmer may benefit, but the reason it's there is the corporation. If that dynamic disappeared, you better believe the US undermining of the global corn price would stop.

And almost all these loopholes disadvantage you. For example, do you have any form of retirement account? You are directly impacted by high frequency trading.
 
OfficePants said:
You may choose to live off grid and say the same thing. It's basically irrelevant.

That farmer that's paid to farm corn is a knock on to the massive structure of farm subsidies that exists. The little farmer may benefit, but the reason it's there is the corporation. If that dynamic disappeared, you better believe the US undermining of the global corn price would stop.

And almost all these loopholes disadvantage you. For example, do you have any form of retirement account? You are directly impacted by high frequency trading.
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I do not see the impact on my daily life. My retirement plan is to work until i can no longer do so. I don't count on any retirement plan via stock market investment although I have both self-directed and a corporate pension plan. They are what they are: money that either grows or it doesn't. My outside interests will provide for when I no longer work. Company Earnings paid out as dividend income. That is unless online porn sites are outlawed in the future.
 
gufasd said:
So things are real if someone imagines them? Its like if you have a society of goat herders with 2 goats and a goat breeder makes everyone think the next guy has three goats. That they need to buy another goat or the next guy will have more goat then he does and it will be the man with two goats fault when he doesn't become a millionaire like the goat breeder. Because the only people who get rich are the goat breeders, not the consumers.


Yet the two people likely responsible for the most deaths have both started out far from elite (stalin and hitler). You can game the system and make a few bucks or you can work hard and become elite.



Again, you are blaming the system for people taking advantage of it. No system will be perfect. The same people who cheat in this system would cheat in any other system of taxation. This is a diversionary argument that takes attention away from the tax cheats to blame the system. Of every IRS agent I know none is out to get you. That is a huge stereotype started by the rich to explain why the IRS is after them, OF COURSE it isnt due to them not paying their taxes - dont be absurd.
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You ever been audited? Personally or corporately? I can only speak from the Canadian experience. The first contact is a form letter that says the Governemnt is going to audit you, which would be fine except the audit that they start with is a full on one where you have to justify your existance from birth and everything you might have purchased even if it is not covered by the years being audited. Plus there is a threat to all of your assets. This versus "we have some questions regarding corporate tax years 20xx to 20xx." One incorporates a business to limit personal liabilities. The Government does not respect that. You then get your accountant to call them up and tell them they are full of shit. They then back down and do a normal audit. The storm trooper, threatening first thrust is an example of how fucked up they are.

The term keeping up with the Jonses was coined in a turn of the century cartoon

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Describing peoples' desire to get what others have, usually people with more than they do and above their station in life.
 
Thruth said:
Now that is perfect!
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The storm trooper analogy is apt. Our simple plan was to dump every bookkeeping file for a decade into the accountant's office they were working out of and said "here you go".

Took a panel van to get it all down there.
 
doghouse said:
The storm trooper analogy is apt. Our simple plan was to dump every bookkeeping file for a decade into the accountant's office they were working out of and said "here you go".

Took a panel van to get it all down there.
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That is the way to do it. They also get pissed when the documentation proves your version. Then they try more shit on.

That is when your accountant is worth his or her weight in gold
 
Thruth said:
That is the way to do it. They also get pissed when the documentation proves your version. Then they try more shit on.

That is when your accountant is worth his or her weight in gold
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Yessir.
 
Thruth said:
The actions of whomever does not impact my life unless their use of loopholes disadvantages me directly.
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I find this to be totally wrong.
It reminds me of what I was told when I confronted some sociopath that was driving like a total egomaniac, risking a crash every few seconds so that he could jockey a few feet ahead of surrounding traffic. "Did I hurt anybody?"
Yes. Just becuse he failed to smash into someone that day does not mean that he didn't profoundly annoy and frighten many, many people. He gummed up a system that would have worked better for everyone. He parasitically forced his acceptance of risk onto everyone else as well, and they were left with the burden of minimizing it.
It is exactly the same with the selfish elite. Their interference leads to a net loss everywhere else. Fairly played, wealth is created in a socially beneficial way. But that is not what is being discussed here, so that social benefit has been forfeited. Opportunities lost.
 
gufasd you don't get it. They randomly single people and companies out. At the end of my audit I owed nothing as i did as you suggest and paid what i owed. There is no tax refunds for my corporation as I pay on what I earn and I know what i earn; there are no bullshit loophole deductions. So at the end all i had was a $5000 accountant bill to deal with a completely spurious government probe looking for something that wasn't there. That shows the system is messed when they use the shotgun approach to try and find scofflaws.

On the personal side, why should they be able to sit on my money? A flat tax solves that. Everyone and every corporation pays the same. It is a progressive tax system. You make more you pay more in absolute terms. There is a cutoff where no one pays anything below a certain earnings level. Basic personal exemptions are the only deductions.
 
Russell Street said:
I find this to be totally wrong.
It reminds me of what I was told when I confronted some sociopath that was driving like a total egomaniac, risking a crash every few seconds so that he could jockey a few feet ahead of surrounding traffic. "Did I hurt anybody?"
Yes. Just becuse he failed to smash into someone that day does not mean that he didn't profoundly annoy and frighten many, many people. He gummed up a system that would have worked better for everyone. He parasitically forced his acceptance of risk onto everyone else as well, and they were left with the burden of minimizing it.
It is exactly the same with the selfish elite. Their interference leads to a net loss everywhere else. Fairly played, wealth is created in a socially beneficial way. But that is not what is being discussed here, so that social benefit has been forfeited. Opportunities lost.
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I see your arguement but in this respect show me where the elites are causing strife in my life by their dirty actions? The asshole driver will eventually injure someone.

I fail to see the impact on me of the elite?
 
Thruth said:
I see your arguement but in this respect show me where the elites are causing strife in my life by their dirty actions? The asshole driver will eventually injure someone.

I fail to see the impact on me of the elite?
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I did, you chose to ignore it. High frequency trading affects everyone in the world with a retirement account, pension or brokerage account. You're choosing to sidestep it, but it takes real money from your pocket every day.

Another one, perhaps more in your face is OPEC. Every time you fill up for gas, it goes into the pockets of elite so their arab playboy sons can fly their super-cars and shriek them thru the London streets. So when you pay for your gas, think of these worthless shits that don't work.

 
gufasd said:
The metaphor is perfect for your response. Just because you do not see the results of an action does not mean it does not have an impact. Their dirty actions have large scale impacts, ranging from lowering the wealth of the underclasses to disrupting the proper workings of the governmental agencies. Altering funding of various agencies destroys proper function and leads to inefficiency. This is then used as an excuse for individuals and companies to act improperly, a viscous cycle being formed.



No, you don't get it. Your financials were too complex, likely due to either you being elite or due to shady activities to take advantage of loopholes in the tax code. If you set up your financials extremely simply then there is no hassle from an audit and no huge accountant bill - more proof that you are elite or are bending the law. When you have nothing to hide you need not fear people asking questions of you - Its not like here the government is appointing a special master you have to pay to investigate you.

I'm not going to get into alternate systems. What is, is. The system is very simple if people do not try to pay less. It only gets complicated for the elite or those trying to pay less.
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1. ok. i don't care about the underclasses. that's where i came from. i worked hard to get up out of there and continue to work hard because a work ethic and a few brain cells is the only thing that get's you to where you need to go. you can hold hands in the park singing "we shall overcome" the 1 pecenters.

2. i should hire you to do my taxes as you seem to know all about it. wrong on all counts but thanks for trying anyway Nostradamus. the tax systems in both the US and Canada are complex and ponderous not my financials. it seems simple to you and that's all that matters.

3. when you have nothing to hide you should not fear being asked questions? i had nothing to hide, government found nothing untoward, still cost me accounting fees to deal with their spurious probe. that is wrong. no one should be out of pocket because the government is guessing who might be cheating.
 
OfficePants said:
I did, you chose to ignore it. High frequency trading affects everyone in the world with a retirement account, pension or brokerage account. You're choosing to sidestep it, but it takes real money from your pocket every day.

Another one, perhaps more in your face is OPEC. Every time you fill up for gas, it goes into the pockets of elite so their arab playboy sons can fly their super-cars and shriek them thru the London streets. So when you pay for your gas, think of these worthless shits that don't work.

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i am ignorant of HFT. willl have to read up on it.

this has been the way of the world forever. there have always been elites. somebody is getting rich no matter what. petrol, Starbucks, you name it someone's making a buck off everything. i guess what i am trying to say is that i don't care. i don't think about it daily. tell me how it interferes with my life? tell me what barriers i face because of it? has my life become worse or better over the years?

sure these guys are turds. big deal. it doesn't bother me that they are rich because at some point, me paying for gas will make some domestic guy rich.

PS. gotta give thanks to OPEC at the moment. 84 cents a litre versus $1.30 a few weeks ago.
 
gufasd said:
I care about the underclass in that everyone is underclass compared to someone else. Unless you are a billionaire oil sheik then you are underclass too. Maybe upper middle class but not leisure class. This is where troubles with taxes occur, when people have enough money to start avoiding some taxes while not having enough money to where the accountant fees are pennies in the bucket compared to the loophole tax savings. I am quite confused at how you find the tax code complex.

It is a very simple rulebook to follow when working with personal financials. It makes no sense that you need an accountant to handle your finances unless you are mentally incompetent - although seeing as you live in canada I should not be suprised. Corporate financials are more complicated, but when dealing with personal financials in the US it is extremely simple to never have problems. Like most governmental programs there is an extremely long book to read that boils down to very simple algebra formulas that you have to sum up. You can do this kind of math having dropped out of highschool at 16, it really is that easy. I'm not sure why you use complex accounting systems such that you need an accountant if you are not utilizing loopholes to get lower tax rates. Something in your story is missing.
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Not talking about personal finances. but there is a difference between one's personal taxes if an employee versus being self-employed.

As for business, I'm not selling Amway out of my house. the missing part of the story is you are applying general statements to a specific situation. you seem to think no one needs an accountant for a business. cool. stick with that idea.

so what is it you care about with respect to the underclass? by your definition, you care about almost everyone.
 
gufasd said:
Your life is worse the richer they are because it means you paid more for their service or good then you could have. It is like giving up money, if you cannot understand why that is a negative I'm not sure how else to explain it. Opportunity costs seems quite simple.

The missing part of the story is that you are not talking about personal finances. I admitted corporate finances are more complicated. Personal finances are just plugging in numbers and chugging through equations.

That line was directly refuting your line about being able to get out of the underclass. You didn't escape the underclass, you just escaped your old reality - now you seem to be hellbent on keeping your old compatriots down. How does it hurt you to care about others? Sure helping yourself and those close to you is good and all but how is it bad to just care about things. Learning about them for the sake of the information, caring just to care. This is far from attempting to change anything, I much prefer the system as it is - quite easy to be happy and live an enjoyable life with minimal work, and decent chances to advance with some work and skill. Realistically I just care about things that people take for granted: constantly living in boxes; agreeing to contracts by virtue of being born; following all the rules. Sometimes it seems like fantasy is more fun then reality, despite reality being so easy.
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right. keep on trying.

as part of the corporate accounting service, personal taxes are done as a courtesy and before you say i am actually paying for it, i pay the same corporate rate as i did before they did my personal returns.

oh, well then i am glad i escaped my old reality then. hellbent on keeping my old compatriots down? how? caring just to care? dude, you are full of empty words.
 
gufasd said:
Not too sure what your point is. You passively enable the oppression of the underclass by the elite by not caring or doing anything to prevent it. What is your issue with caring just to care, for no other reason then why not...
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you contradict yourself. i am enabling oppression of the underclass by not caring or doing something to prevent it. but then caring just to care is ok. what do you do, other than caring just to care, to free the underclass from the yoke of oppression by the elite?
 
Intrusive government is all the result of the elite. The poor never voted themselves anything. It's all from the upper echelon, and they always have ulterior motives and take a growing cut. If taxes were not being diverted, they'd be like they were at the start. 7% maximum in 1913
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_Act_of_1913#Income_Tax_Table_for_Individuals

Also see how the payroll tax and estate tax are nearly inverted? Robbing the workingman to pay the heirs and heiress. WTF?
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gufasd said:
How is any action voluntary when you are in a system where one party has a monopoly on the use of force?
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Who is forcing you to use the stock market?






gufasd said:
You are part of the problem. If you have nothing to hide why do you not comply and make their job easier? The reason we have issues with not enough IRS agents to do their jobs is because people lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead.
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Reading comprehension. You should work on it too.
 
Russell Street said:
I find this to be totally wrong.
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You can find all you want, but it's just a construct of your mind.

A guy swerving cost society because people were frightened? Really? This is what we have come to?

Don't walk in the woods then. There are scarier things than swerving drivers out there.
 
doghouse said:
A guy swerving cost society because people were frightened?
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It's unnecessary imposition and it gives a minimal gain to one at the expense of the greater whole. Why are your ideals so damaged that this is not offensive to your sensibilities?
 
Russell Street said:
It's unnecessary imposition and it gives a minimal gain to one at the expense of the greater whole. Why are your ideals so damaged that this is not offensive to your sensibilities?
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I have no ideals. Idealism is the refuge of the stupid.
 
gufasd said:
Participate in helping educate people at a post secondary level to help improve chances for a better future. Take part in outreach programs to enable other disadvantaged minorities to improve their chances for success in a biased world..
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Then we do similar things in service to the disadvantaged. Still I don't spend endless nights worrying about them.

I empathize with the situation but I do not sympathize.
 
doghouse said:
Who is forcing you to use the stock market?
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Again, oppurtunity cost. Due to finaciancial trickery, stocks are doing fantastic and you'd be forfeiting great (temporary) gains to stay out.
doghouse said:
I have no ideals. Idealism is the refuge of the stupid.
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Nihilists are not worth arguing with. This explains a lot.
gufasd said:
Taxes are voluntary as a portion of living in a country that has them. If you do not like paying taxes then renounce your citizenship and move to a different country.
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Well what of unconstitutional taxes, spending which violates the constitution (which would be a hefty portion of US taxes)?
 
Russell Street said:
Again, oppurtunity cost. Due to finaciancial trickery, stocks are doing fantastic and you'd be forfeiting great (temporary) gains to stay out.
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Wait, so which is it, you gain or you lose? To get this straight, you are complaining about a voluntary system that can benefit you because it's not benefiting you more?

Russell Street said:
Nihilists are not worth arguing with. This explains a lot.
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I'm in no way a nihilist. I care about plenty of things. I'm not an idealist because I'm not an idiot. Pragmatist is the word you are looking for.
 
Oh boy. You and your statist interpretation of law. Congress has certain enumerated powers listed in Article 1, Section 8 of the United States Constitution. Anything beyond that is a usurpation of powers and a violation of the the Constitution. Needless to say, the framers were wise and severely limited these powers and almost all modern action is contrary to what was explicitly demanded.
 
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