The knitwear thread

[The Shooman]

Saw this one in eBay. No idea if it is good or bad but bids start at £139.00. Label says heritage collection.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm?itemId=154994069619&du=1

Just saw it now. Do not be fooled, this is made in Mongolia (evidence below). Some of these heritage editions are also made in Italy.

Made in Mongolia from cheap manufacturing. No mention of where it is made. Notice those long chain stitches. Similar to China...good imitators.



Look!!! Another Ballantyne intarsia `heritage edition' with long chain stitches.


Made in Mongolia



Gotta navigate the waters carefully when it comes to Ballantyne. Plenty of scammers trading off the name. Note: they never mention made in Scotland.

 

[Tamyom]

Hello. I just went through this thread and thank you all for the valuable information. Very interesting. I am not really an expert on knitwear but have a few cashmere vintage items made in Scotland by traditional brands mentioned in the thread.

 

[Elote]

The world's most luxurious cardigan

Idea = speak to Australia's luxury retailer (Harrolds) about having Barrie in Scotland create a 12 ply cashmere shawl cardigan in extra thick ply and high gauge count made to hermes' standards. The ultimate thick beefy cardigan weighing 4.5 pounds. Have a very limited number made in a few sizes. Get Style Forum and AAAC involved in a special order process to help Harrolds sell the items. I have wanted to do this for ages. I was initially in the process of doing this, but the person l was dealing with passed away. Maybe a couple of top stores could take part in this to make this work.

This type of cardigan will be extremely expensive, but it will be something very substantial and a once in a lifetime purchase. It will be the ultimate in decadence, and something cherished for

 

[Elote]

E Elote Let me just say this....

if you like knitwear as much as l do, then l am happy you bought it. Given that the cardigan was unusual and not bought for a long time, and given you bought it because you realised it was a rare grail piece, it tells me that it went to the right person.

To me, knitwear is like shoes, if you buy the best ones it can be really rewarding. I really cherish my knitwear. It is difficult to get good stuff now, especially the high quality beefy knitwear. Even the 12 ply Brunello Cucinelli knitwear looks thin, and it probably pills quite a bit too (most of mine pills). Those 12 ply O'Connells look nice, but quality is a concern too; too much skimping going on.

The world's most luxurious cashmere cardigan
To me there is a small gap in the marketplace for a truly luxurious hefty cashmere cardigan of high gauge and ply count, but will people pay $5,000 - $6,000 + for a properly made winter cashmere cardigan?? How many need to be ordered, and how many of each size etc? So many things to think about. AND, what about the quality of the cashmere and the processing methods....even Ballantyne 2007 6 ply cardigans have some pilling; this is a sign of the times, it is no longer the 80's when mills had access to great cashmere that hardly pilled. Loro Piana seems to have the best cashmere IMO, and they grow their own source and have great quality control; none of my LP stuff pills at all, but some of the Hermes made-in-Scotland stuff does pill a bit.

Loro Piana has the great cashmere, but Hermes makes cashmere jumpers to the old standards of the vintage knitwear, SO....can l combine the two?? Can l source the best cashmere from LP at a premium price and have it spun in Scotland in a heavy ply by Todd & Duncan, and then have Barrie make the cardigan??? The market would be very small, only the biggest knitwear junkies would pay the $$$$ for such luxury. Marketing this project would be important too, and it is do-able because it is a market niche', and the customers could be found imo.

This idea, about the Most Luxurious Cashmere Cardigan keep coming back, so I went back looking at AAAC and SF, and start searching on really old treads, circa 2005 and before, to get any ideas. Hidden within one the discussions, found an artisan that used to make custom work for Ballantyne and McGeorge. I track him down and he told me that he still has his old workshop set up in Innerleithen.
I guess, this is the way to go. Not the companies, and trying to find a old mill -Lockie/Corgy/Drakes-but to go directly to the artisans, which the mills themselves contracted to do custom work.
So Shooman, if its ok with you, and with his permission -as soon as I have them, I'll be posting pics and bio here.
If anybody would like to come along for the process, ideas are most welcome.
So far, I'm thinking it'll be a 12 ply shawl collar cardigan, in a 14 micron, 36/38 length yarn. Colour will be decided by the yarn quality, as we need enough to make the cardigans and maybe the yarn might not be available in all colours. Style, more on the classical side -not skin tight/ cropped- 1920's and so.
Gauge?
Any way, I'll keep you informed.

 

[The Shooman]

This idea, about the Most Luxurious Cashmere Cardigan keep coming back, so I went back looking at AAAC and SF, and start searching on really old treads, circa 2005 and before, to get any ideas. Hidden within one the discussions, found an artisan that used to make custom work for Ballantyne and McGeorge. I track him down and he told me that he still has his old workshop set up in Innerleithen.
I guess, this is the way to go. Not the companies, and trying to find a old mill -Lockie/Corgy/Drakes-but to go directly to the artisans, which the mills themselves contracted to do custom work.
So Shooman, if its ok with you, and with his permission -as soon as I have them, I'll be posting pics and bio here.
If anybody would like to come along for the process, ideas are most welcome.
So far, I'm thinking it'll be a 12 ply shawl collar cardigan, in a 14 micron, 36/38 length yarn. Colour will be decided by the yarn quality, as we need enough to make the cardigans and maybe the yarn might not be available in all colours. Style, more on the classical side -not skin tight/ cropped- 1920's and so.
Gauge?
Any way, I'll keep you informed.

Would always prefer to go directly through a private maker than through mills. The less middlemen the better. David Cox sounds promising.

Would want a cashmere shawl cardigan that is very dense and heavy. Would want it to be 4 pound or more in weight if he can do it. Classic style of course, a relaxed fit.

Would you care to share with me his contact details privately? I want to feel confident in what he can do and what he can't do. Obtaining the really good cashmere is also important; no point is going to all this trouble if the cardigan pills. The 12 ply O'connells cashmere cardigans are said to pill quite a bit, and the Scott and Charters is not high enough quality for the project l would like to do, so lets try to do it right and get Loro Piana quality cashmere with the ply thickness and knit of the best of Scotland made to Ballantyne standards. This cardigan will need to be special, not just another 12 ply cardigan. I want it to be the best in the world.

15 years ago the 6 ply Ballantyne shawl cashmere cardigan were 1,500 GBP, yet the 12 ply cashmere shawls available today are only about $1,200. Lets try to get the best cardigan in the world made and find a market for it by talking to businesses and people. For me it is the best or nothing. Cutting out middlemen will make the price lower too.

Pstt, l just saw a poster called The Master Knitter. I think it might be David Cox.

 

[The Shooman]

btw, bought this today....

Ballantyne cashmere cardigan in classic navy. Brand new old stock from the 80's. What a score!

 

[The Master Knitter]

Seems to be lots of discussion about Ply and references to 12 ply and 6 ply.

I will try to explain, before knitwear company’s used 2/28 (72tex) they used a single yarn perhaps 1/14’s (72tex) both classed as 1ply thickness for knitting on a 21 gauge frame, 14 needle or 12 n hand flat machine like Ballantyne Pullman garments.

The same applies to a old 2 ply (168tex) or 2/16’s, some now say it as a 4ply but in fact it’s 2/28’s x 2 = 168tex like the Ballantyne Gents Lorne on 15 gauge frame or 10n hand flat.

Ballantyne Gents Shawl Collar Jacket Royce (sample knitted 1988 exclusive for Harrods) was based on the McGeorge Westway both knitted on a 5n Hand Flat machine, the body panels are 2/16’s (168tex) x 2 and skirts cuffs and pocket tops x 3 so not all 6ply. If they use 2/28’s (72tex) x 4 and trims x 6 so these day some call it 12ply but is identical to Ballantyne 6ply.

I also knitted a McGeorge style 12007 which was a pure new wool garment made on 3n or 2.5n hand flat using 2/11.5’s approximately (210tex) or cashmere equivalent 72tex x 3, the body panels would be knitted in 2/11.5’s x 2 and skirts cuffs n pocket tops x 3 .

Hope you can understand and follow, as there are many different types of yarn counts/cuts about is just from what we were taught in Innerleithen.

T & D and Hinchliffe do 2/28’s but before they did I believe Biagoli 2/28’s in Italy produced probably the best I have ever knitted and a pet project at moment is to match the local Velvethall Alpaca Fleece to be processed in the same way to achieve a top end pieces.

Companies may be knitting on computerised machines which need to be knitted at a slacker tension and not as dense as a hand flat machine plus the full cardigan stitch doesn’t lend its self not to pill or the yarn twist maybe slacker.

I trust this may help answer the discussions about different companies garments.

Ps. the #ballantynecrazyyank is first on the list for any garments outside the ones I make for the elderly townsfolk of #InnerleithenTheRealHomeOfBallantyne

 

[The Master Knitter]

Link to yarn conversion calculator

Textile Yarn Conversion Calculator

 

[The Shooman]

Ballantyne Gents Shawl Collar Jacket Royce (sample knitted 1988 exclusive for Harrods) was based on the McGeorge Westway both knitted on a 5n Hand Flat machine, the body panels are 2/16’s (168tex) x 2 and skirts cuffs and pocket tops x 3 so not all 6ply. If they use 2/28’s (72tex) x 4 and trims x 6 so these day some call it 12ply but is identical to Ballantyne 6ply.

Hello David,

Your coming here will probably be appreciated by many people who view this thread around the world. There are several questions I would like to ask, but I will keep some of those questions until later. I would hope you would want to answer them, because it would solve many mysteries a number of us often wonder about.

If you don't mind, l would like to talk about the Ballantyne cashmere shawl cardigan made for Harrods in 2008. All that you say about the NM (tex) for the body panels, pockets and trims makes basic sense to a layman like myself, and it is what l thought was probably the case (trims are very thick like a 12 ply, body panel is thinnest like a 4 ply, pockets are slight thicker like a 6 ply....laymans terms) .

https://colourmart.com/about/knitting_properties (simple link for laymen)

Instead of asking too many pesky questions on technical things, l will keep it simple for myself and people who read this.

Main question
I would like to be able to have a cashmere shawl cardigan made to at least a thickness of that collar on the Ballantyne shawl cardigan, ie, the arms and the panels made to the thickness of that collar. Is this possible to do without doubling the two sections together, or would the entire cardigan need to be doubled over like the collar section?

Is it possible to make the knit even denser than the Ballantyne collar? Ie, having the density of the trims with the thickness of the collar?

The trim is 2/28's x 6 and is much denser than the collar. Is the collar the same TM (tex) as the trims?

Companies may be knitting on computerised machines which need to be knitted at a slacker tension and not as dense as a hand flat machine plus the full cardigan stitch doesn’t lend its self not to pill or the yarn twist maybe slacker.

This is very very interesting and makes sense based on the knitwear l have observed. Much of the Italian knitwear is of a loser weave despite having a gauge count as high as the Scottish knitwear (never really made sense until now). I suspect numerous cheaper Scottish knitwear uses machines (loser weave) while the better makers still use hand looms for their best sweaters/jumpers, and it would probably explain why some of the Scottish knitwear is so solid and hard wearing.

Ps. the #ballantynecrazyyank is first on the list for any garments outside the ones I make for the elderly townsfolk of #InnerleithenTheRealHomeOfBallantyne

Interesting that #ballantynecrazyyank is first on your list. I hope you will let him know of this thread here.

I have some other general questions l would love to ask, but l don't want to overload you with too many at once.

Thanks again for posting here at this forum. I hope my questions are not too dumb, and l hope l am not too ignorant and annoying in the questions l ask.

 

[Elote]

Hello David, welcome to the group.
I do not want to sound like a troglodyte, but if #ballantynecrazyyank is first on the list for any garments, then I call dibs on been number 2.

I have a question regarding yarn, and the diminishing returns on cashmere quality over the years. What is the best way to secure the best available cashmere yarn? Has been discussed about going through a brand name, either Todd&Duncan or Loro Piana, or going by specific characteristic of the yarn, been around 14 micron and around a 36/38mm length the best quality cashmere yarn available for a heirloom piece? What did Ballantyne of Peebles used to use? Thank you.
Kindest regards

 

[Elote]

This is my latest score, it is a SULKA Shawl Collar Cardigan. Interesting to note, is the use of 2 different wool/yarns, Camel Hair for the body and Cashmere for the shawl collar. Quite lovely I think!

 

[Swiss]

This is my latest score, it is a SULKA Shawl Collar Cardigan. Interesting to note, is the use of 2 different wool/yarns, Camel Hair for the body and Cashmere for the shawl collar. Quite lovely I think!

Amazing piece!!

 

[The Master Knitter]

Hello David,

Your coming here will probably be appreciated by many people who view this thread around the world. There are several questions I would like to ask, but I will keep some of those questions until later. I would hope you would want to answer them, because it would solve many mysteries a number of us often wonder about.

If you don't mind, l would like to talk about the Ballantyne cashmere shawl cardigan made for Harrods in 2008. All that you say about the NM (tex) for the body panels, pockets and trims makes basic sense to a layman like myself, and it is what l thought was probably the case (trims are very thick like a 12 ply, body panel is thinnest like a 4 ply, pockets are slight thicker like a 6 ply....laymans terms) .

https://colourmart.com/about/knitting_properties (simple link for laymen)

Instead of asking too many pesky questions on technical things, l will keep it simple for myself and people who read this.

Main question
I would like to be able to have a cashmere shawl cardigan made to at least a thickness of that collar on the Ballantyne shawl cardigan, ie, the arms and the panels made to the thickness of that collar. Is this possible to do without doubling the two sections together, or would the entire cardigan need to be doubled over like the collar section?

Is it possible to make the knit even denser than the Ballantyne collar? Ie, having the density of the trims with the thickness of the collar?

The trim is 2/28's x 6 and is much denser than the collar. Is the collar the same TM (tex) as the trims?



This is very very interesting and makes sense based on the knitwear l have observed. Much of the Italian knitwear is of a loser weave despite having a gauge count as high as the Scottish knitwear (never really made sense until now). I suspect numerous cheaper Scottish knitwear uses machines (loser weave) while the better makers still use hand looms for their best sweaters/jumpers, and it would probably explain why some of the Scottish knitwear is so solid and hard wearing.




Interesting that #ballantynecrazyyank is first on your list. I hope you will let him know of this thread here.

I have some other general questions l would love to ask, but l don't want to overload you with too many at once.

Thanks again for posting here at this forum. I hope my questions are not too dumb, and l hope l am not too ignorant and annoying in the questions l ask.

 

[The Master Knitter]

 

[The Master Knitter]

Top blue is the McGeorge 12007 3n machine. 210tex x 2 ends.

The red was a old style knitted for Joseph many years ago. 2.5n machine. If I remember it’s 220tex X 3 ends of wool, body half cardigan stitch and collar was full cardigan stitch.

The last is a pocket of the McGeorge Westway identical to Ballantyne Royce 5n machine 168tex x 2 ends and x 3 pocket tops. It pictured on top of a 12007 collar to show the stitch difference. Oh I forgot the shaped fancy collar on the 12007 jacket is 12n 1/1 with open ends to link on to garment.

Ps knitwear is knitted on a Frame and Cloth is woven on a Loom!

 

[The Master Knitter]

Hand Flat Machine Frame needles, and sizes are Needles per inch.

12n, 10n, 7n, 5n, 3.5n and 2.5n

Both the 3.5n (smaller head) and 2.5n can be used in the beds of 2.5n 3n and 3.5n machines.

 

[The Shooman]

View attachment 43739

I really love that blue Mc George, so thick and stylish. It is really the type of thing l love the most.

1). Did you make it?
2). How heavy would that cardigan weigh?
3). Would you be able to make a cardigan like that, with at least the body panels as thick as that collar? I would love to have a cashmere cardigan like the one pictured here, but weighing over 4 pounds. Would that be possible to do?...a super heavy weight cardigan.

The Master Knitter What l am really trying to do is find out what you can do and what you can't or won't do. When it comes to super heavy cardigans, what is the limit before style/structure/fit gets compromised? ie, can the sleeves be as thick as the collar of that blue cardigan above, or would that bring about a compromise in fit and styling? Can the cardigan be made in double thickness all over like the trims/collar, or would that compromise the structure of the cardigan (sagging)?

E Elote I think your questions are good, some of those were on my list. Still, l have several questions l would like to ask David Cox, so l am hoping he'll be happy to oblige.

 

[The Master Knitter]

1/ yes my work.
2/ probably around 1.3 kilos or more.
3/difficult to say double unless I made a sample swatch on machine.

Trouble with using yarn so thick and big stitch would be it could easily Matted !

Example I recently was making bobble hats with a 2ply 168tex X 4 alpaca yarn and the customer had a fleece processed in a 2 ply 336tex X 2 to get same yarn count but when knitted and processed ended up overmilled and matted look, lossing the nice stitch of the 168tex X 4 . Alpaca yarn for individual fleeces to be processed cost around £250 to £300 per kilo on cone to knit so not cheap.

I think if I was to make a sample swatch I would use 2/28’s (72tex) X maybe 10 or 12 to get the double the Ballantyne 6ply but it maybe to thick and then linking together I could use my bespoke 4 gauge linker. Buttonholes may needle to be hand sewn instead of machine.
After milling (washing) n drying only then would you know the result, I will see what yarn I have in the shop and see what I can do.

I already do a heavy fisherknit raglan pullover and it’s really to heavy in merino using 210 Tex x 3 and trims x5 .

Hope that answers your questions?

Happy to answer others but find this forum a bit strange to use.

 

[belinmad]

I’m definitely in on the ultimate cardigan once you’ve nailed down all the details

 

[The Shooman]

I think if I was to make a sample swatch I would use 2/28’s (72tex) X maybe 10 or 12 to get the double the Ballantyne 6ply but it maybe to thick and then linking together I could use my bespoke 4 gauge linker. Buttonholes may needle to be hand sewn instead of machine.
After milling (washing) n drying only then would you know the result, I will see what yarn I have in the shop and see what I can do.

This answer makes me smile a lot, and your post answered my questions perfectly. You understand my vision, and are prepared to push the limits to see if it can be done. I think a number of us here will be very interested to see the sample.

2/28’s (72tex) X 10 or 12 sounds perfect. In layman's terms (all of us here) that is similar to the modern day words 20 or 24 ply isn't it.

If you are able to make this, how heavy do you think this could be?

This will be costly, but it will be a cardigan made without limits and the ultimate indulgence. It will be the greatest cardigan ever made, ie, the best cashmere, the best workmanship, traditional Scottish styling, and a density/weight that nothing can compare to. Imo, none of the thick cardigans commonly available are made thick and heavy enough.

 

[The Master Knitter]

 

[Swiss]

In case anybody might be interested, there is this Mcgeorge shawl collar cardigan for sale on ebay UK (I have no relationship with the seller)

McGeorge of Dumfries Men's Vintage Cashmere Shawl Collar Cardigan 46" Steve... | eBay

<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0;">Extremely rare example of the shawl collar cardigan produced by McGeorge and famously worn by Steve McQueen. This is not a modern reproduction, this is a true vintage item in excellent condition for its age.</p> <br> <p dir="ltr"...

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[Swiss]

I am quite (to say the least) excited with the development of the conversation around the ultimate cardigan.
Although I must admit some of the technical details are beyond me.
I have always dreamt of kicking off a project like this.
I actually tried to contact a few makers in Scotland a couple of years ago but did not persevere I must admit...
I am now working on a pet project around bed throws and blankets (perhaps off topic on a knitwear thread) which is a simpler undertaking

 

[The Shooman]

I am quite (to say the least) excited with the development of the conversation around the ultimate cardigan.
Although I must admit some of the technical details are beyond me.
I have always dreamt of kicking off a project like this.
I actually tried to contact a few makers in Scotland a couple of years ago but did not persevere I must admit...
I am now working on a pet project around bed throws and blankets (perhaps off topic on a knitwear thread) which is a simpler undertaking

I thought you would be excited about this project. I actually tried kicking off this project with two contacts previously, but it was not meant to be, and now l am glad it didn't work out. I think David Cox is the man to do this, and given he has made the `royce' cardigan for Ballantyne and has done work for the top firms, we couldn't ask for anyone better.

In a few days l will post some general questions to David....questions that many of us would probably be curious to know.

 

[The Shooman]

Simply amazing. Wow. Such a lucky guy.

 

[güero]

I'm also excited irrespective of the outcome, but I'd only buy something that is wearable in non-@Thruth-like climates

 

[Swiss]

I have just bought this cardigan...
Am I right in thinking it is McGeorge (that's what the smaller tags looks like to me)

It is the first time I buy shetland... I hope it is fairly soft

 

[The Shooman]

Swiss I was eyeing that for ages. Passed because it was too big for me. Yes it is McGeorge. Why? McGeorge use a certain type of font and label for various companies they have knitted for in the past including Hermes'.

 

[Swiss]

I hadn’t seen it had been there long
It will probably be too big for me too
But for $39…I thought I’d give it a try

 

[The Shooman]

Changed my post above after a quick check of labels.

Shetland is a touch rougher wool than the usual lambswool, but it is warmer. Enjoy the shetland, it is special cardigan.

 

[Swiss]

Thanks for giving it a second look
I was curious more than anything, having no prior experience with shetland...
But I am really not into rough fibers so I am not sure I will wear it too much...

 

[The Shooman]

Thanks for giving it a second look
I was curious more than anything, having no prior experience with shetland...
But I am really not into rough fibers so I am not sure I will wear it too much...

You are similar to me, nothing even begins to compare to cashmere (Vicuna probably excepted).

 

[Panama]

I have added another 10 John Smedley items to my wardrobe in the last few months. Unfortunately most are autumnal colours. Then again I probably have 10 yellow sweaters to begin with.

 

[Streetlight]

My exit knitwear - Jamieson's Shetland in dark navy, Jamieson's Shetland in granite grey.

 

[Swiss]

Not strictly speaking knitwear but here is a rare piece I have just received

 

[Swiss]

And also this lovely Cardigan from Malo. Knit tension is very decent

 

[belinmad]

What’s happening with the The Master Knitter project is what I want to know

 

[Panama]

I know it's summer, but what's your favourite Jumper or Sweater style?

Arran or Cable
Scandinavian or Nordic - Icelandic and Norwegian
Submariner or Guernsey Fishermen
Polo Neck
Fair Isle or Argyle
Shetland
Donegal

I generally have plain crew wool or cotton Jumpers but want to get something more individual so will be getting a few of the above.

 

[The Shooman]

I know it's summer, but what's your favourite Jumper or Sweater style?

I like all the styles, but by far my favourites are:

- thick shawl collar cardigan in cashmere (1st favourite)
- turtleneck in cashmere (2nd favourite)
- thick cable knits in cashmere (3rd favourite)

 

[The Master Knitter]

I thought you would be excited about this project. I actually tried kicking off this project with two contacts previously, but it was not meant to be, and now l am glad it didn't work out. I think David Cox is the man to do this, and given he has made the `royce' cardigan for Ballantyne and has done work for the top firms, we couldn't ask for anyone better.

In a few days l will post some general questions to David....questions that many of us would probably be curious to know.