A Futile and Stupid Gesture: The History of the First Trump Presidency & Q-Anon

OfficePants said:
BHO, his parents gave the guy a weird name. I can't wrap my head around black America's penchant for this. Look at the NBA draft prospects, where do they come up with names like Lonzo and Markelle. But wait, there's more: De'Aaron. And someone named their kid Malik Monk. Why wouldn't you test those out together before signing the birth cert?
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Malik Monk = King Priest / Holy King. I see no problem with that.

As for BHO, um, gee. Hussein means "beautiful one." I can't imagine why you'd want to name a child that. And he was named long the fuck before either Saddam or bin Laden were things. What were his parents supposed to do, use a crystal ball? Consult a psychic? (Name your kid Saddam today? Okay, yeah. That's messed-up.)

So, I'm curious: Why do you hate America?

Or is it just black America?

Or is it just the parts of black America that don't want to be white America?

And if it's either of the latter two, what does that make you? Take your time with your answer. I'll wait.

I don't give a frothy shit about the color, religion, or least of all the fucking name of the guy on the trigger to my right or my left, nor the guy who has my belay, nor the guy giving me orders. Actually, there is one guy in my unit I do care about in that regard -- his dogtags have his religion listed as JEDI, and I have to wonder what his funeral would look like.

This is America. It is not a white country. It is not a Christian country. It is a haven for people of all races and all religions, whose forefathers were kicked out of every all the good countries and came here to make this one. They're what made us great. You can cope with that, or you can keep crying that those scary people with the scary names are scaring you.
 
Rain Man said:
Take your time with your answer. I'll wait.
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No need to wait. It's easy.

Black culture is full of criminality and fathers that don't raise their children (one feeds the other). In addition, there is a sense of entitlement and a placid understanding within the community that you should get the government for whatever you can and let others pay for it.

Lastly, there is a belief that the white man owes you something, and that immigrant culture after immigrant culture has come here and succeeded while black America remains populating ghettos after a dozen head starts yelling about how their lives matter.

Feel free to debate any of these on their merits, or play white christian country solitaire, or whatever scary name is scaring me.

I really felt Hussein was going to be a transformative figure in this problemed culture, but it's worse than ever by any reasonable metric. And my taxes pay for it instead of evolving the human race.
 
Oh, holy shit. That is the saddest, smallest, and most frightened little thing I have heard in a long time.

Are you seriously American? Or are you just fucking with us?
 
My wife has a masters in linguistics and she always points out that AAVE is a legitimate and accepted dialect whenever we argue (sociolinguistics is a major source of friction in our relationship). She's not even black, and I have no idea how AAVE even gets brought up, but suddenly we're arguing about it. It's just the fucking worst. I know for a fact that one of her professors was black, too.

^
That was funnier to me until I realized that we do talk about sociolinguistics a lot, and AAVE does actually come up quite a bit, probably because she is very interested in sociolinguistic prestige.
 
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Rain Man said:
This is America. It is not a white country. It is not a Christian country. It is a haven for people of all races and all religions, whose forefathers were kicked out of every all the good countries and came here to make this one. They're what made us great. You can cope with that, or you can keep crying that those scary people with the scary names are scaring you.
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what drugs are you on?
 
InstaHate said:
Didn't we already establish that black America wasn't real America?
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I get the ironic comedy you enjoy, now extended to America identity derision. A real nation is made up of a population interested in cooperation with one and other for the betterment of the common society.

Is this nation doing that? I don't believe so because it's mired in dumbness, recklessly trying to destroy a President they don't agree with. We get laughable talk of impeachment, dumb twitter posts, and no important legislation being addressed by a congress that neither works, or lets anyone work.

The country is non-functional largely because of democrats (currently), and it should split into 3 or 4 pieces so people can move on and stop trying win a culture war.

I get the jokes InstaHate InstaHate , but they're not really funny when people are behaving this way.
 
I'm not making jokes about this topic, even ones that are only funny to me. The way people are behaving is reckless.
 
OfficePants said:
I get the ironic comedy you enjoy, now extended to America identity derision. A real nation is made up of a population interested in cooperation with one and other for the betterment of the common society.

Is this nation doing that? I don't believe so because it's mired in dumbness, recklessly trying to destroy a President they don't agree with. We get laughable talk of impeachment, dumb twitter posts, and no important legislation being addressed by a congress that neither works, or lets anyone work.

The country is non-functional largely because of democrats (currently), and it should split into 3 or 4 pieces so people can move on and stop trying win a culture war.

I get the jokes InstaHate InstaHate , but they're not really funny when people are behaving this way.
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In seriousness, the nation started down this path, at least politically, in the wake of Obama's election. The Republicans openly decided to be obstructionist, the Democrats/WH moved to counter. It got worse as time passed. Now the Democrats will be obstructionist, and the Republicans/WH will move to counter.

It's a combination of an inherent failing of a two party democracy, the rise of internet echo chambers, media outlets more interested in money, clicks, or a political agenda than factual reporting, a political system designed in a way that it is forced to cater to extremes, and the overall polarization that has risen out of all of it.

People...everyday normal people... are more interested in calling out the other side than dialogue. Why? Because it is satisfying. I almost instinctually ignore anybody who describes Trump supporters as fascists, nazis, or white trash and anyone who describes the left as libtards, cucks, or snowflakes. Liberals gleefully reposting Trumptweets about Obama's vacations in light of Trump's vacations are part of the problem. Liberals gleefully pointing that supporters for Republican obstructionism now bemoan it when Democrats do it are part of the problem.

We are now a nation of people more concerned with proving a point, winning an argument, and getting one over on the "other side" than we are interested in actually talking with and listening to people who have different worldviews.

This is primarily a structural, emergent phenomenon, and it depresses the hell out of me. Looking back twenty years ago, it seems almost inevitable.

I do think, as individuals, it is possible to make a difference. I don't think that there is the critical mass required to do so. But it is possible, when framed properly, to have honest discussions about uncomfortable topics. I guest lectured a graduate sociology class a few months ago in the wake of Trump's victory. My intended talk had nothing to do with Trump (it was on how professions and labor have evolved in a society increasingly dominated by corporations), but Trump came up, and some kid mentioned white trash voters. And instead of calling her out, I asked the class why they thought "white trash" was okay but "wetback" wasn't. After some thought, they suggested that marginalized groups dont parallel with non-marginalized groups. I asked why they thought that poor whites aren't marginalized, and even more, structurally marginalized and demonized. I think all of them, at that point, recognized that "white trash" was just as pernicious as "wetback." How long that awareness lasted, who knows. But it is still possible to engage in nuanced dialogue. People just don't.
 
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InstaHate said:
In seriousness, the nation started down this path, at least politically, in the wake of Obama's election. The Republicans openly decided to be obstructionist, the Democrats/WH moved to counter. It got worse as time passed. Now the Democrats will be obstructionist, and the Republicans/WH will move to counter.

It's a combination of an inherent failing of a two party democracy, the rise of internet echo chambers, media outlets more interested in money, clicks, or a political agenda than factual reporting, a political system designed in a way that it is forced to cater to extremes, and the overall polarization that has risen out of all of it.

People...everyday normal people... are more interested in calling out the other side than dialogue. Why? Because it is satisfying. I almost instinctually ignore anybody who describes Trump supporters as fascists, nazis, or white trash and anyone who describes the left as libtards, cucks, or snowflakes. Liberals gleefully reposting Trumptweets about Obama's vacations in light of Trump's vacations are part of the problem. Liberals gleefully pointing that supporters for Republican obstructionism now bemoan it when Democrats do it are part of the problem.

We are now a nation of people more concerned with proving a point, winning an argument, and getting one over on the "other side" than we are interested in actually talking with and listening to people who have different worldviews.

This is primarily a structural, emergent phenomenon, and it depresses the hell out of me. Looking back twenty years ago, it seems almost inevitable.
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I appreciate seriousness. This situation requires it. I wish a few others here would show the same respect to how ugly this has become.

The Republicans did indeed decide to obstruct, but this is not new. It's been a historical reality, but right now is more acute than ever, and that's taken a new tone with democrats invoking activist judges to stop what is obviously within presidential power such as the travel ban. And yes, the republicans will probably find a new level to take it to.

I agree this is a failing of a 2 party system. It's too binary, and too limiting of choice. I am quite liberal on many social issues, but I also strongly believe government has grown WAY outside it's boundaries, and that we are taxed to death with so many stupid expenditures that I don't even know where to begin.

The rise of echo chambers are largely because of social media, and before that cable news. We are not listening to each other in the same way people in Latvia are not interested in listening to those in Madagascar. Totally alien worlds. And what was once a historically biased media, it was narrow, and we were forced to at least listen to a common narrative, but now? Fuck it, just make up the most outrageous shit you can and people with click and generate advertising income.

People here are more interested in posting jokes and dumb twitter for the same reason you state. Taking this seriously is sobering. But you said the system is designed to cater to extremes, I don't agree, because nothing technically stops new parties from forming, and challenging the status quo. The country desperate needs at least 2 more parties to start catering to real needs, which is not happening.

I understand why it's depressing. The way Trump is being treated is depressing to me. He didn't need to do this, but a bunch if idiots have decided they are going to dismantle this guy no matter what, and they have emboldened otherwise reasonable people to join in on the fun. They are going to look at this in a few years and realize (or maybe not) that they turned their country into Brazil, and have abandoned all the hard work that went into making it livable, in the face of a lot of real banana republics that overwhelm the world. Or civil war.

You may be having fun taking the mickey out of Trump, but he fundamentally understands what was fucking the country up, and has a genuine desire to solve it. But whatever, keep up the fun and games, and laugh the good laugh when you're a crime ridden shithole like Brazil. Then come whine about how socialism was not allowed to take hold and really (finally, for once) work.

I don't want to be a downer, but there is a greater good here that is being trashed in the face of blind hatred. There are so few well run countries out there, and this stupidity is turning is into one of them, and you only need to look at Venezuela to see how incredibly easy it is. A broker friend of mine has a truth about stocks that also applies to countries... they take the stairs up but the elevator down.

Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Argentina, Greece, Brazil, Cuba. Russia. Myanmar. South Africa. Want to become one? Keep up the bullshit.
 
An example of how our system caters to extremes (though not its intention):

The voting records of our congressmen are open to the public. Transparency, yay. But largely the only groups that take advantage of this are lobbyists and extremist voters (who generally have more motivation than centrist voters and are more likely to form interest groups). The average American doesn't really bother with checking out how their congressman votes. As a result, what was designed to make our government more accountable to its people has really just made it more accountable to special interests.

While there aren't many formal mechanisms in place (not that Johnson would have won, but he wasn't even allowed to debate, so there are a few), there are very strong informal mechanisms which prevent a third party from ever gaining traction (e.g. access to funding, the heavily institutionalized belief that voting for anything but R and D is throwing your vote away, etc).

I agree we need change. We obviously disagree about Trump. You see him as someone who is motivated to change the system, and change it for the better. Though I strongly believe the system requires change, I'm mostly ambivalent about the direction Trump wants to take it, primarily because I see him as just another self-aggrandizing politician, one who took advantage of a nation's justified discontent (as well as an awful opponent) to get elected. If Trump hadn't spent 2008-2015 encouraging Republican obstructionism and working into a froth what would become his base with conspiracy theories and birtherism, maybe I'd take him at face value. His consistent reliance on demagoguery doesn't help.

His snowflake ego is silly and straight up odd, but nothing of substance and something everyone just needs to get past. What annoys me irrationally is his unwillingness to acknowledge Russia's role in the election (similarly, that terrible NPR interview, where Clinton blamed everyone but herself, was really annoying). Had Trump done this, I'd probably be more sympathetic to the whole Russia thing. As is, I am looking forward to a definitive statement from Mueller along the lines of "Russia successfully intervened in the election on Trump's behalf, and nobody in Trump's campaign, including Trump himself, had anything to do with it."
 
Rain Man said:
My turn to ask you what drugs you're on.
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Did you get any likes? Feels good doesn't it?

Here waiting for a substantive reply, in the event you can get past these pseudo joke cum broad generalities.

I've managed to get some substance out of InstaHate InstaHate , give it a shot. We know doghouse doghouse and Monkeyface Monkeyface are incapable of ending their love affair but don't turn it into a circle jerk.
 
OfficePants said:
Did you get any likes? Feels good doesn't it?

Here waiting for a substantive reply, in the event you can get past these pseudo joke cum broad generalities.

I've managed to get some substance out of InstaHate InstaHate , give it a shot. We know doghouse doghouse and Monkeyface Monkeyface are incapable of ending their love affair but don't turn it into a circle jerk.
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It is clear that the left and select components of the right are being obstructionist.

The left in general cannot get over their butt hurt that he won. The right is doing so out of self-preservation.

However, Trump is not helping his case by his dabbling in his own butt hurt public messaging.

His commencement address at the Coast Guard Academy is a prime example of him not helping his case by lowering himself (it is in his nature to do so but lowering himself as president) to the level of the fucktards.

He cannot for one minute stop insinuating his sense of self-greatness into every public situation.

That cannot sit well with people who are waiting for him to act with a sense of grace and confidence as a president should
 
Thruth said:
It is clear that the left and select components of the right are being obstructionist.

The right in general cannot get over their butt hurt that he one. The left is doing so out of self-preservation.

However, Trump is not helping his case by his dabbling in his own butt hurt public messaging.

His commencement address at the Coast Guard Academy is a prime example of him not helping his case by lowering himself (it is in his nature to do so but lowering himself as president) to the level of the fucktards.

He cannot for one minute stop insuinusting his sense of self-greatness into every public situation.

That cannot sit well with people who are waiting for him to act with a sense of grace and confidence as a president should
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Needs more histrionics, vitriol, and ad hominem attacks.

6.5/10, would read again
 
InstaHate said:
Needs more histrionics, vitriol, and ad hominem attacks.

6.5/10, would read again
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I have nothing left. i am spent waiting, wishing and hoping for him to stop acting like the owner of a chain of falafel take out shops who just got elected as school board chair.
 
InstaHate said:
An example of how our system caters to extremes (though not its intention):

The voting records of our congressmen are open to the public. Transparency, yay. But largely the only groups that take advantage of this are lobbyists and extremist voters (who generally have more motivation than centrist voters and are more likely to form interest groups). The average American doesn't really bother with checking out how their congressman votes. As a result, what was designed to make our government more accountable to its people has really just made it more accountable to special interests.

While there aren't many formal mechanisms in place (not that Johnson would have won, but he wasn't even allowed to debate, so there are a few), there are very strong informal mechanisms which prevent a third party from ever gaining traction (e.g. access to funding, the heavily institutionalized belief that voting for anything but R and D is throwing your vote away, etc).

I agree we need change. We obviously disagree about Trump. You see him as someone who is motivated to change the system, and change it for the better. Though I strongly believe the system requires change, I'm mostly ambivalent about the direction Trump wants to take it, primarily because I see him as just another self-aggrandizing politician, one who took advantage of a nation's justified discontent (as well as an awful opponent) to get elected. If Trump hadn't spent 2008-2015 encouraging Republican obstructionism and working into a froth what would become his base with conspiracy theories and birtherism, maybe I'd take him at face value. His consistent reliance on demagoguery doesn't help.

His snowflake ego is silly and straight up odd, but nothing of substance and something everyone just needs to get past. What annoys me irrationally is his unwillingness to acknowledge Russia's role in the election (similarly, that terrible NPR interview, where Clinton blamed everyone but herself, was really annoying). Had Trump done this, I'd probably be more sympathetic to the whole Russia thing. As is, I am looking forward to a definitive statement from Mueller along the lines of "Russia successfully intervened in the election on Trump's behalf, and nobody in Trump's campaign, including Trump himself, had anything to do with it."
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It's nice to see some reasonable discourse.

Trump is like a guy getting accused of cheating on his wife because he was in a room where a bunch of guys were actually cheating on their wives. He's fundamentally right... there is no collusion. I think if this insane democrat destruction tactic were to stop, he would probably acknowledge that Russia tried to influence our election. But even that is not news.

There are quite a lot of dislikeable traits about him that I would concur with. I don't back his stance blindly, I surely acknowledge that he's a flawed person like we all are. But I firmly believe he does want to stop this insanity in government, and what you are clearly seeing is how impossible it seems. And that's bad. It's deep state, surveillance state, political opposition, and a delusional media all stacked up against his honest wish. They're exposing themselves to be so much more destructive than I though, and I already thought they were destructive.

We are run by an elite that has been working on version 3.0 of what the the Medici did, followed by the Rothschilds, and now the new breed of elite that realizes fuck it, we don't need Italy, or Europe + more of what the Rothchilds did, we can go for the whole fucking planet by instituting a system of corporatized government where if we loosely play ball together we can control everyone. We just need some shill politicians and journalists to get on board with stupid slogans about inclusiveness and open borders. And we can build AI, and get large swaths of land far away from the dystopian masses that we will crowd into cities and slowly turn the knot on until everyone is dependent because control of technology is going to be way more important than food or finance.

Trump does a lot of dumb shit, but in the face of what Hillary represented, he's a million times better.
 
Thruth said:
I have nothing left. i am spent waiting, wishing and hoping for him to stop acting like the owner of a chain of falafel take out shops who just got elected as school board chair.
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!!!
That reminds me. Asim told me to tell you that he left his anal beads at your country villa.
 
Thruth said:
That cannot sit well with people who are waiting for him to act
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Stop at act. The rest is pedestrian.

I want action. If he can't perform, the he should go. He is getting in his own way, I agree. He seems hell bent on winning a war with the elite when he fails to realize he has all the weapons to blow them apart.

Start blowing them apart, dumbass. Quit talking in public and get the work done.

I am one of the ones waiting for him to act. I am taxed to death and my livelihood is threatened by globalism run amok.
 
Rambo said:
this is good.

this needs to be fixed.
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Dude, are you going to indulge this vague cool bullshit too? Just say why and spare me the time needed to ask. I am trying to work while I wait for ingrates here to reply with (finally) some substance.
 
OfficePants said:
Stop at act. The rest is pedestrian.

I want action. If he can't perform, the he should go. He is getting in his own way, I agree. He seems hell bent on winning a war with the elite when he fails to realize he has all the weapons to blow them apart.

Start blowing them apart, dumbass. Quit talking in public and get the work done.

I am one of the ones waiting for him to act. I am taxed to death and my livelihood is threatened by globalism run amok.
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EXACTLY
 
OfficePants said:
Dude, are you going to indulge this vague cool bullshit too? Just say why and spare me the time needed to ask. I am trying to work while I wait for ingrates here to reply with (finally) some substance.
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vague cool? taxes are good. globalization is bad. i've been very consistent on these points. its not my fault if you're getting bogged down in other people's bullshit. if you'd like me to expound on some of these points then feel free to ask, but neither of them have anything to do with president trump at this very moment since, as you've stated, he has yet to do anything about any of these important matters.
 
Rambo said:
vague cool? taxes are good. globalization is bad. i've been very consistent on these points. its not my fault if you're getting bogged down in other people's bullshit. if you'd like me to expound on some of these points then feel free to ask, but neither of them have anything to do with president trump at this very moment since, as you've stated, he has yet to do anything about any of these important matters.
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Globalisation is good. I'll add much more value and pay much more taxes to the US than the likes of OfficePants OfficePants ever will. You can thank me later. Just because you happen to be born in a particular place doesn't mean you're entitled to it. Borders are a meaningless way to define oneself.
 
Monkeyface said:
Globalisation is good. I'll add much more value and pay much more taxes to the US than the likes of OfficePants OfficePants ever will. You can thank me later.
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Value added isn't in question. It's where that value goes that's in play. Right now it all gets funneled to the rich while the lower and middle class get crushed.
 
Rambo said:
Value added isn't in question. It's where that value goes that's in play. Right now it all gets funneled to the rich while the lower and middle class get crushed.
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Eh, start taxing capital in the same way as labour and that problem will be fixed. Don't make shareholder value maximisation the sole goal of a corporation and it'll definitely be fixed. Economists like to be seen as infallible hard scientists, but it really is a social science with a lot of unproven theories.
 
Monkeyface said:
Eh, start taxing capital in the same way as labour and that problem will be fixed.
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It's a start but workers at home will never ever be able to compete with slave labor abroad. Until the free trade agreements are killed off we'll continue to suffer massive job and wage losses.
 
Rambo said:
It's a start but workers at home will never ever be able to compete with slave labor abroad. Until the free trade agreements are killed off we'll continue to suffer massive job and wage losses.
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Free trade agreements are a way to ultimately equalise conditions between countries. It's already working, Japan is on the same level as the western world, same as Korea, or look at Eastern Europe for example, and China is very close and getting too expensive for "slave labour". It'll take another lifetime but we'll get there. It's a long term thing. We might have to give up a little so that people in other countries can enjoy the luxuries we've had for the past century, but that's only fair, no?

What's more likely is that it's not a zero-sum game, and that we'll all win in the long run, even OfficePants OfficePants .
 
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