A Futile and Stupid Gesture: The History of the First Trump Presidency & Q-Anon

Yay.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...democracy-us-president-european-a7828496.html


Donald Trump's speech in Warsaw sought to redefine the West around religion rather than democracy
Speech made no mention of religious tolerance or the right-wing Polish government's authoritarian crackdowns on judges and journalists



President Donald Trump addressing the crowds at Krasinski Square, in Warsaw REUTERS/Kacper Pempel
Donald Trump sought to redefine the West through religion rather than democracy as he warned Western civilisations were at risk of declining.

Speaking in Warsaw ahead of the G20 summit, Mr Trump called for the defence of Western values in terms of religion and culture against radical Islam.

In his address, Mr Trump repeatedly made references to God, faith, tradition, national sovereignty and family, themes which were likely to resonate with fervent Christian Poles.

“The people of Poland, the people of America, and the people of Europe still cry out ‘We want God'," he said.


"We put faith and family, not government and bureaucracy, at the centre of our lives," he said.

The speech made no mention of religious tolerance and Mr Trump did not say anything about the right-wing government's authoritarian crackdowns on judges and journalists, which have upset EU leaders.

The EU launched an investigation into Poland last year, citing threats to the rule of law incompatible with EU values.

On Krasinski Square, a site which commemorates the 1944 Warsaw Uprising against the Nazis, Mr Trump's message was well received by cheering crowds.

Poland's right-wing nationalist ruling Law and Justice party was elected on an Eurosceptic and anti-immigration agenda, which promotes family-focused welfare spending and threatened to ban abortion and in-vitro fertilisation.

Last year, Polish President Andrzei Duda took part in a religious ceremony that officially recognised Jesus as the King of Poland.

Inside the EU, senior officials are reportedly concerned Mr Trump's speech could boost populist far-right politicians with a similar agenda across Europe.

Mr Trump's speech was a clear sign of his vision for foreign policy.

"The fundamental question of our time is whether the West has the will to survive. Do we have the confidence in our values to defend them at any costs? Do we have enough respect for our citizens to protect our borders? Do we have the desire and courage to preserve our civilisation in the face of those who would subvert and destroy it?" he said.

Former Polish foreign minister Radek Sikorski told Bloomberg the speech made reference to Samuel Huntington's "clash of civilisations" theory in which he argued that the West's ideological contest with the former Soviet Union would be followed by a growing struggle between religious blocs.

Many world leaders now see Mr Huntington's theory as something to avoid, especially when fighting Islamist terrorism. But some of Mr Trump's aides have embraced the idea of a war between the Christian West and Islam.

Mr Sikorski said: "The Polish government had reasons to be very pleased with it [Mr Trump's speech], because it very much echoes their philosophy."


But the former head of Poland's constitutional court, Jerzy Stępień, an opponent to the ruling Law and Justice Party, told the news agency: "For me talking about Western civilisation without mentioning rule of law, democracy and human rights isn't possible. I'm not sure how President Trump defines Western civilisation but for me these attributes are indispensable."

The values outlined by the US President as representing Western civilisations are likely to clash with those promoted by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, whose differences with Mr Trump are well known.

From climate change and migration to free trade and the rule of law, Ms Merkel is expected to make her case heard at the G20 meeting.

But as he landed in Hamburg, Mr Trump reaffirmed the message he sent to Poland and tweeted: "The West will never be broken. Our values will prevail. Our people will thrive and our civilisation will triumph."
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http://www.moonofalabama.org/2017/07/the-undeniable-pattern-of-russian-hacking.html

The Undeniable Pattern Of Russian Hacking (Updated)
Updated below

A wide review of news sources finds an undeniable patter of international "Russian hacking" claims:

  • Many, if not all such accusation, are based on say-so by some anonymous "official" or self-promoting "expert".
  • Many, if not all such accusation, are rebutted within a few days or weeks.
  • News about any alleged "Russian hacking" is widely distributed and easy to find.
  • News of the debunking of such claims is reported only sparsely (if at all) and more difficult to retrieve.
ruhacking-s.jpg

Source: Jeff Darcy, Cleveland.com - bigger

Examples:

Ukraine

United States

Germany

Russian Hackers Are Targeting Germany Now, Too, Wired - Dec 10 2016
France

Qatar

United Kingdom

The undeniable patter of "Russian hacking" is that any claim thereof is likely not true and will be debunked in due time.

These remarks on the "Russian hacking" allegation in relation to the U.S. election are therefore quite appropriate:

President Trump again cast a skeptical eye on intelligence community assessments that Russia interfered with the 2016 presidential election, saying Thursday while on a visit to Poland that "nobody really knows for sure" what happened.
...
Trump also compared the intelligence about Russian interference with the faulty assessment that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in 2002, which provided President Bush with a justification to go to war.
"Guess what, they were wrong, and that led to one big mess," he said.

Update (June 7 3:00am Est):

To frame today's Trump-Putin talks at the G20 meeting in Hamburg (and to prove the above, timely post correct?) U.S. media issued three new story today implicating "Russian hacking". The stories are made up of rumors, fearmongering and of reports of banal phishing attempts on some administrative systems. While all three implicate Russia they naturally contain ZERO evidence to anything related to that country.

In the very likely case that the above described pattern of "Russian hacking" holds, all three stories will be debunked within the next few days or weeks.
 
Fwiffo said:
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Take your kid to work day.
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Nice to see Merkel brought her BDSM sub, pretty boy Trudeau. Meanwhile Ivanka does not look terribly happy at the lack of pocket parrots displayed by the Chinamen.

Also, that "Trump by himself" picture is another "Look! There's no one at the inauguration". When will they learn.
 
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WildBlue said:
Nice to see Merkel brought her BDSM sub, pretty boy Trudeau. Meanwhile Melania does not look terribly happy at the lack of pocket parrots displayed by the Chinamen.

Also, that "Trump by himself" picture is another "Look! There's no one at the inauguration". When will they learn.
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That's Ivanka...
 
All the Trump chatter aside, the idea of returning to a God-centric conceptualization of Western Civilization disturbs me on several levels.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ned-western-values-around-faith-not-democracy

Augustine's incredibly influential City of God / City of Man dichotomy stifled technological, cultural, and social growth in Europe for a millennia. While I think that the secularization of the West is irreversible (thankfully) and that it is a shame that humanistic values haven't coalesced in a way as to completely fill the void of religious values, this movement, a decade in the making, is alarming. The dignity of a human, and all that it entails, is fundamental to what makes the West so wonderful. How we interpret that dignity and what follows may be fiercely debated, but it is nevertheless a principle at the core of the West. I have no wish to return to the City of God at the expense of the City of Man.
 
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Poland, Hungary et al are right to hold out against Merkel's follies and quiet tyranny. Where does this strength come from? Does not religion form part of the culture of these countries, or is the currency of religion only reserved for Islam?

The speech was right, delivered at the correct pitch: the West is the best and part of our heritage and values comes from the Christian tradition. Time to man-up and stand-up for our culture, identity and our civilization.
 
Lord Buckley said:
Poland, Hungary et al are right to hold out against Merkel's follies and quiet tyranny. Where does this strength come from? Does not religion form part of the culture of these countries, or is the currency of religion only reserved for Islam?

The speech was right, delivered at the correct pitch: the West is the best and part of our heritage and values comes from the Christian tradition. Time to man-up and stand-up for our culture, identity and our civilization.
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One shouldn't look at Hungary as an example. It's a super corrupt country, getting close to a dictatorship, with politicians openly lining their own pockets and practicing nepotism. Not too dissimilar to the US now that I think of it.

Anyways, the Christian tradition isn't our culture at all. The Christian tradition gave us the dark ages. The renaissance tradition gave us the enlightenment, freedom and economic development the West is known for. One can practice whatever religion one wants in the private space, but it would be foolish to think relgion is necessary for the West in the public space.

Hell, religious tolerance and freedom was one of the major reasons why the Netherlands flourished so much in the 17th century. Wealthy and smart victims of the Spanish Inquisition fled to Amsterdam, bringing with them their business, kicking off the "Golden Age".

"More moved to the north between 1585 and 1630 than Catholics moved in the other direction, although there were also many of these. Many of those moving north settled in Amsterdam, transforming what was a small port into one of the most important ports and commercial centres in the world by 1630.

In addition to the mass migration of natives from the Southern Netherlands, there were also significant influxes of non-native refugees who had previously fled from religious persecution, particularly Sephardi Jews from Portugal and Spain, and later Huguenots from France. The Pilgrim Fathers also spent time there before their voyage to the New World."
 
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Monkeyface said:
That's Ivanka...
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Sorry, was looking at tits. Jokes aside, I have no idea as to why I made such a foolish mistake.

InstaHate said:
All the Trump chatter aside, the idea of returning to a God-centric conceptualization of Western Civilization disturbs me on several levels.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ned-western-values-around-faith-not-democracy

Augustine's incredibly influential City of God / City of Man dichotomy stifled technological, cultural, and social growth in Europe for a millennia. While I think that the secularization of the West is irreversible (thankfully) and that it is a shame that humanistic values haven't coalesced in a way as to completely fill the void of religious values, this movement, a decade in the making, is alarming. The dignity of a human, and all that it entails, is fundamental to what makes the West so wonderful. How we interpret that dignity and what follows may be fiercely debated, but it is nevertheless a principle at the core of the West. I have no wish to return to the City of God at the expense of the City of Man.
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It is the Cold War all over again, where the West will have to face against "Godless" Communism, but this time the enemy has another God. I loathe to think that the day will come when atheists will be discriminated against and not hold public office...oh, that's right, in several US that's already a thing.

Western values were in no way inspired by exclusively Judeo-Christians ones, it's not like the "Golden Rule", empathy and basic morality are proprietary to religions, in fact I'd argue they're not. It was the Renaissance and Illuminism (which did have some deistic connotations, I must say) which started shaping our current society, however, an enemy within, a fifth column has used our own values against us and has thrown us in the current chaos.

Multiculturalism does not work (unless, of course, you have a very strong central power, which is abhorrent), ethno-nationalism is rightly on the rise and it's the only way we can save ourselves. Just to give you an idea, in the first 6 months of 2017 Italy received 83731 immigrants, while the rest of Europe is turning its backs and refusing to help, Austria even threatened to send tanks to the Brennero frontier (they seem to have a penchant for panzers and borders, must be old genetic imprinting). I guess it's easy to talk when you don't have daily landings. I understand that partitioning them between the various nations is an absurd idea which will only hasten our downfall, therefore the only plausible solution is forced repatriation and while we're at it, I'd send with them all the people holding up signs such as "refugees welcome".
 
Monkeyface said:
Anyways, the Christian tradition isn't our culture at all. The Christian tradition gave us the dark ages. The renaissance tradition gave us the enlightenment, freedom and economic development the West is known for. One can practice whatever religion one wants in the private space, but it would be foolish to think relgion is necessary for the West in the public space.
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Crikey, we're going to post whether the exit of the Victorian age into the 20th century heralded truly secular governments (or failing that governments that worship non-religious messianic/dictator idols). That's going to be another few pages in this thread. The Soviet Union was the byproduct of that thinking - par excellence. Also 4am ET? Are you on Europe time or west coast time?
 
Fwiffo said:
Crikey, we're going to post whether the exit of the Victorian age into the 20th century heralded truly secular governments (or failing that governments that worship non-religious messianic/dictator idols). That's going to be another few pages in this thread. The Soviet Union was the byproduct of that thinking - par excellence. Also 4am ET? Are you on Europe time or west coast time?
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I'm on world time, my friend. True globalists work round the clock!

More haxxorz:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...fde9a2-638b-11e7-8adc-fea80e32bf47_story.html
 
Lord Buckley said:
The speech was right, delivered at the correct pitch: the West is the best and part of our heritage and values comes from the Christian tradition. Time to man-up and stand-up for our culture, identity and our civilization.
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I've lived in and enjoyed living in several non-Western countries, and when all is said and done, on the balance of things, I think the West has got it the most right. I'm biased as a Westerner, of course. My preferences and values are Western, so I naturally hold the West in high regard. However, there are far more non-Westerners attracted to the West than Westerners attracted to non-Western countries. And it isn't just a matter of money and quality of life, since this is true of comparably developed non-Western countries. It's about culture. For example, a South Korean colleague of mine had turned down several offers to return to Korea to teach at a university there. He explained that had he had sons, he might have accepted the positions, but since he has a daughter, and he doesn't want his daughter growing up in such a patriarchal society, he declined the positions to remain in the US.

But as someone else here said, in terms of what has made the West great, Christianity is little more than a vehicle for older values and systems of meaning. Our philosophy is heavily rooted in the Greek tradition, our morality is Greek with a bit of Judaism, with the Judaic influence completely and the Greek influence partly carried through Christianity, and our legal systems evolved from those of Roman Republic and Empire.

Most, if not all, of what makes us great can be traced to its immediate origin in the Renaissance, and its Humanism marks a clear departure from the worldview of Augustine and a return to and evolution from the pre-Christian meaning systems of Greece and Rome.

TLDR:
The West is awesome, but Christianity has little to do with it.
 
Rambo said:
even a poor reading of this article would prove this is a huge nothingburger. of course its top spot on the huffpo.
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It proves he lied. He also lied on his security clearance forms, which should have some consequences.
 
Emails have been released! Donny "loves it" that the Russian government supports them!

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/...setting-up-meeting-with-russian-lawyer-240402

“There’s no escaping it: the Trump Campaign’s inner circle met with an agent of a hostile foreign power to influence the outcome of an American election,” House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said in a statement. “The incendiary news of the meeting arranged by Donald Trump Jr. is a grave development in the investigation of Trump officials’ possible collusion with Moscow.”

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) told reporters any time a foreign government offers to aid a campaign, the answer should be no.

“Definitely he has to testify. The email is disturbing,” Graham said. “But what is equally odd to me is the person they met with knew absolutely nothing. I don’t know why they would pick somebody for him to meet with that didn’t have any information about the Clinton campaign. But on its face, this is very problematic.”

According to legal experts, Trump Jr. very likely committed a federal criminal offense by doing this. Campaign finance law expressly prohibits soliciting campaign assistance from foreign sources, and this email chain clearly shows Trump Jr. doing that. “The law states that no person shall knowingly solicit or accept from a foreign national any contribution to a campaign of an item of value,” explains Ryan Goodman, a former Defense Department special counsel and current editor of the legal site Just Security. “There is now a clear case that Donald Trump Jr. has met all the elements of the law, which is a criminally enforced federal statute.”
 
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Monkeyface said:
“The law states that no person shall knowingly solicit or accept from a foreign national any contribution to a campaign of an item of value,”
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You mean like Clinton getting money from the Saudis?

Can we stop with this back and forth nonsense, all canditates were terrible. The shiniest turd won, I'd rather have him than her. Not that much would change, mind you, but the waking up of people gives me hope.
 
WildBlue said:
You mean like Clinton getting money from the Saudis?

Can we stop with this back and forth nonsense, all canditates were terrible. The shiniest turd won, I'd rather have him than her. Not that much would change, mind you, but the waking up of people gives me hope.
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Aren't you supposed to be Italian?

Anyhoo, I'm not sure a hundred thousand aggrieved worthless motherfuckers counts as a "waking up" of anything.
 
doghouse said:
Aren't you supposed to be Italian?

Anyhoo, I'm not sure a hundred thousand aggrieved worthless motherfuckers counts as a "waking up" of anything.
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I am Italian, but I'm allowed to have a preference in foreign politics, no?

Are you referring to people finally realising that the current establishment is in no way, shape or form advocating their causes but rather is under the agenda of a select few in the EU and USA? If so, please explain how they are "aggrieved worthless motherfuckers". Be quick, before too many laws that restrict free speech are enacted.
 
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WildBlue said:
I am Italian, but I'm allowed to have a preference in foreign politics, no?

Are you referring to people finally realising that the current establishment is in no way, shape or form advocating their causes but rather is under the agenda of a select few in the EU and USA? If so, please explain how they are "aggrieved worthless motherfuckers". But be quick, before too many laws that restrict free speech are enacted.
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Doghouse is an elitist. You're not going to make any headway arguing this line with him.
 
Rambo said:
Doghouse is an elitist. You're not going to make any headway arguing this line with him.
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Elitist or plebeian is irrelevant to me, what I care about is intellectual honesty. Being unable to assess the current situation as an utter failure for society means that you are either intellectually impaired or that you willingly ignore facts. I'm absolutely fine with differing positions, as long as they're not "multiculturalism, third wave feminism and enrichment from migrants is the way to progress".
 
WildBlue said:
Elitist or plebeian is irrelevant to me, what I care about is intellectual honesty. Being unable to assess the current situation as an utter failure for society means that you are either intellectually impaired or that you willingly ignore facts. I'm absolutely fine with differing positions, as long as they're not "multiculturalism, third wave feminism and enrichment from migrants is the way to progress".
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fair enough, but if you're arguing to someone that "society would be better off as a whole", yet they don't give a fuck about society, especially the segment that would be benefiting, is this really productive?
 
WildBlue said:
I am Italian, but I'm allowed to have a preference in foreign politics, no?

Are you referring to people finally realising that the current establishment is in no way, shape or form advocating their causes but rather is under the agenda of a select few in the EU and USA? If so, please explain how they are "aggrieved worthless motherfuckers". Be quick, before too many laws that restrict free speech are enacted.
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I'm pretty much the most intellectually honest poster on here.

The problem is your characterization of society is wholly false. The world is as close to a meritocracy as it's ever been, and people are quite upset by this. Of course they can't say that, because we've been told that's the ideal (and for the record I am 100% for meritocracy) and no one want's to admit they aren't that good at stuff.

Our dear departed OfficePants was actually right about one thing, though didn't know why or specifically what about. People are not equal, but it has nothing to do with race, class, creed, nationality or culture. It has to do with ability. Culture can alter outcomes, but it doesn't alter talent. Talented people will succeed given good situations. Non talented people will fail. I'd love to be a NFL MVP Quarterback, but that shit isn't in the cards because I'm not Tom Brady. Life is no different. Some people are good at it and some people aren't. I have employed a lot of people over the years, talent knows no color or society, the good ones come from all walks.

So this whole idiotic elite global cosmopolitans taking everything bullshit myth is fucking retarded. The answer is a lot more simple, you just fucking suck.

(Not you personally, the royal you)

Edit: And it's important to note I'm not anti any particular class unlike the rest of you, working, upper or otherwise. In fact, I'm arguing the opposite.

Rambo said:
Doghouse is an elitist. You're not going to make any headway arguing this line with him.
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No, I'm a talent-ist.
 
WildBlue said:
I am Italian, but I'm allowed to have a preference in foreign politics, no?

Are you referring to people finally realising that the current establishment is in no way, shape or form advocating their causes but rather is under the agenda of a select few in the EU and USA? If so, please explain how they are "aggrieved worthless motherfuckers". Be quick, before too many laws that restrict free speech are enacted.
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Indeed, the whole lack of interest in the Saudi money is bizarre. The question should be what was this incriminating evidence and what was crooked Hillary up to with her dealings with certain Russkies?

It may well be a felony, but if you were in Jnr's position, you would have acted the same. It's innocent enough on his part, good intentions possibly falling foul of the law besides.
 
So collusion is not a crime. What monetary value can be attached to the dirt on Hillary if indeed there was dirt on Hillary exchanged, which there wasn't.

No treason.

Makes them look stupid but this is nothing new.
 
Thruth said:
Makes them look stupid but this is nothing new.
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The funniest part to me is how insulated his idiot kids have been from failure their wholes lives that they honestly can't conceive how dumb they are.
 
Yeah, I still doubt there is collusion, but I am beginning to believe that if there actually was collusion by those within the Trump camp, it was accidental and a product of inexperience. It is very easy to imagine Don Jr getting information and releasing it (which would amount to working with the Russians to undermine Clinton) without really understanding the ramification of what he'd be doing.
 
a publicist calls your kid up and says "hey we've got dirt on your boss' enemy at work". who kid wouldn't go "great!"? this whole thing is so exceptionally stupid.
 
doghouse said:
The funniest part to me is how insulated his idiot kids have been from failure their wholes lives that they honestly can't conceive how dumb they are.
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InstaHate said:
Yeah, I still doubt there is collusion, but I am beginning to believe that if there actually was collusion by those within the Trump camp, it was accidental and a product of inexperience. It is very easy to imagine Don Jr getting information and releasing it (which would amount to working with the Russians to undermine Clinton) without really understanding the ramification of what he'd be doing.
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Rambo said:
a publicist calls your kid up and says "hey we've got dirt on your boss' enemy at work". who kid wouldn't go "great!"? this whole thing is so exceptionally stupid.
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They are very Clampett-esque but no less stupid that those that are calling the action treason
 
Rambo said:
a publicist calls your kid up and says "hey we've got dirt on your boss' enemy at work". who kid wouldn't go "great!"? this whole thing is so exceptionally stupid.
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A non fucking retarded one. See my earlier post about a lot of people being really fucking bad at life.
 
Depends on who the publicist is. If it is a publicist from a long-time rival foreign power and is explicitly identified as part of an effort of that foreign power to meddle in the election, then any kid with a decent head on his shoulders would back away quickly and maybe report it to the authorities.

That being said, stupidity =/= treason.
 
InstaHate said:
Depends on who the publicist is. If it is a publicist from a long-time rival foreign power and is explicitly identified as part of an effort of that foreign power to meddle in the election, then any kid with a decent head on his shoulders would back away quickly and maybe report it to the authorities.

That being said, stupidity =/= treason.
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True - insta - but a the same time you can't commit a treasonous act and then use your defence as " Sorry I'm just stupid" - well I suppose you can because intent matters - disregard my previous comment.

As my father used to say - 'I'm as happy as the boy who shot his father - then asked for mercy because he was an orphan"
 
The one thing I am taking away from this is that the Trump camp clearly was aware that Russia was engaged in some sort of effort to help him.

No surprise on Jr's part when it was mentioned, and it was broached casually as if it was established, mutual knowledge. And since the information was clearly the purpose of the meeting, Kushner was aware as well.

I am open to alternative explanations.
 
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InstaHate said:
Depends on who the publicist is. If it is a publicist from a long-time rival foreign power and is explicitly identified as part of an effort of that foreign power to meddle in the election, then any kid with a decent head on his shoulders would back away quickly and maybe report it to the authorities.

That being said, stupidity =/= treason.
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The publicist is from the UK and is an ex-tabloid journalist and music producer.

The Russian collusion trope really is tiresome at this stage, this is worth watching if you've got 30 minutes spare:

 
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