All About Watches

I assume anyone skilled in basic farm vehicle repairs etc, like yourself, thruth, me and Shooey could change that belt ourselves and replace it with a cheap elastic band off the groceries, or a bit cut off a kids party balloon, should it even break or snap under the pressure of Wrist Presence.
Tag-Heuer-Monaco-V4-Tourbillon-2014-1.jpg
 
fxh said:
I think to a certain extent the buying and knowingly wearing of a fake in the context, macho pRole-X posturing etc- actually shows a bit of class. Extra points for comparing writs with someone who has the real thing and then explaining yours is a fake.

Are these fakes cheap or expensive?
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You could wear a fake in an ironic way, as a piece of performance art, satirizing that macho posturing that you referred to, amongst other things, But most, nearly all, are wearing fake Rolex's because they want the cache, but can't afford the entry. They want 'in' on the cheap, and thus, are as cheap as their watch.
 
But wouldn't it be a double post irony moment when you both flashed fakes but you were open and nonchalant about it?
 
fxh said:
But wouldn't it be a double post irony moment when you both flashed fakes but you were open and nonchalant about it?
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I think you are assuming (hoping for) a level of sophistication amongst the wearers of fake watches (fake anything really) that sadly isn't there.
 
Probably more after a snicker to myself - as is my usual practice. Or a good story for a forum.
 
formby said:
You could wear a fake in an ironic way, as a piece of performance art, satirizing that macho posturing that you referred to, amongst other things, But most, nearly all, are wearing fake Rolex's because they want the cache, but can't afford the entry. They want 'in' on the cheap, and thus, are as cheap as their watch.
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I'd hope that people wearing real ones at least know how to spell cachet.
 
formby said:
In what way does it not live up to their expectations?

I believe that Seiko have now spun off Grand Seiko as a separate entity.
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Aesthetically I believe, you get it on your wrist and realise it doesn't work. Or you find another object of desire which has grabbed your attention.

I can't see them spinning off Grand Seiko as a separate business(?), as a division yes, but there's too much kudos in the range to do that. Without it, they're just another lower range with some mid range satellite watches as a nice add on i.e. Citizen watches, the watch of the developing world. All the kudos is wrapped up in Grand Seiko.

viaattovannucci said:
Perhaps you mean that Heuer is criminally underappreciated. TAG, on the other hand, remains and has always been the wristwatch of choice for the great unwashed.
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They had a good run in the late 1990's and 2000's, but they haven't made the intended jump to hyper-space....

Advertising sunglasses on their watch website was a mistake too.

Some bad marketing decisions and the failure to develop an in-house movement at the time they were planning to move on up towards the next level of true luxury watches was a big mistake. Even two bit outfits like Christopher Ward has managed to do this.

They've become an also ran.

fxh said:
Are these fakes cheap or expensive?
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I didn't ask, but my brother did say they're not that cheap as they're pretty immaculate as fakes go. But they always fail to get the anti-reflection coating in place.

formby said:
You could wear a fake in an ironic way, as a piece of performance art, satirizing that macho posturing that you referred to, amongst other things, But most, nearly all, are wearing fake Rolex's because they want the cache, but can't afford the entry. They want 'in' on the cheap, and thus, are as cheap as their watch.
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fxh said:
s-l500.jpg
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That's the kind of watch one wears went you want everything going backwards, sideways and inside out.

I thoroughly approve!
 
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Lord Buckley said:
They had a good run in the late 1990's and 2000's, but they haven't made the intended jump to hyper-space....

Advertising sunglasses on their watch website was a mistake too.

Some bad marketing decisions and the failure to develop an in-house movement at the time they were planning to make the jump to the next true luxury level was a big mistake. Even two bit outfits like Christopher Ward has managed to do this.

They've become an also ran.
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I don't ever remember them trying to do anything beyond entry level mechanicals and better packaged quartz in their consumer offerings. I think the 90s were their nadir too, when Jack Heuer came back in the early aughts they really got back on track.

Generally offering affordable mechanical while pursuing technical and design achievements in the R&D department has been their M.O. over the years. Some of the benchmarks they hit with the Mikrographs and stuff lately have been pretty neat.
 
doghouse said:
I don't ever remember them trying to do anything beyond entry level mechanicals and better packaged quartz in their consumer offerings. I think the 90s were their nadir too, when Jack Heuer came back in the early aughts they really got back on track.

Generally offering affordable mechanical while pursuing technical and design achievements in the R&D department has been their M.O. over the years. Some of the benchmarks they hit with the Mikrographs and stuff lately have been pretty neat.
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They were massive victims of counterfeit watches in the early 1990s, embarrassingly so. Their re-emergence and rebranding the late 1990s was spot-on. Flawless in fact.

I've never owned a Tag, lots of my associates do and some of their higher end watches, but the gripe I hear on watch blogs, is that they don't do enough with the movements they buy in. They rebrand them and that's about it. I don't know whether that's true or not.
 
Lord Buckley said:
They were massive victims of counterfeit watches in the early 1990s, embarrassingly so. Their re-emergence and rebranding the late 1990s was spot-on. Flawless in fact.

I've never owned a Tag, lots of my associates do and some of their higher end watches, but the gripe I hear on watch blogs, is that they don't do enough with the movements they buy in. They rebrand them and that's about it. I don't know whether that's true or not.
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I think the late 90s weren't very good.

They definitively don't do anything to the ETA movements they get, that's why their watches only cost 1200 bucks. They make plenty of their own movements as well though for the Carreras and stuff in the 2-3k range, always have.

Only TAG I've ever had was a quartz F1 I received as a gift, my watches have always been Omega and Vacheron.
 
The problem with TAG, is the same problem that Omega and Breitling and IWC have allowed themselves to fall into, albeit to a lesser degree. And that is a lack of discipline.

Loads of models, with not much to differentiate them released annually. Omega have [potentially] enormous cachet, they made the watch that accompanied Neil and the boys to the moon, but they seem hell bent on diluting it with multiple models referencing it. I mean, Dark Side of the Moon, Grey Side of the Moon...FFS....????
 
Lord Buckley said:
Aesthetically I believe, you get it on your wrist and realise it doesn't work. Or you find another object of desire which has grabbed your attention.

I can't see them spinning off Grand Seiko as a separate business(?), as a division yes, but there's too much kudos in the range to do that. Without it, they're just another lower range with some mid range satellite watches as a nice add on i.e. Citizen watches, the watch of the developing world. All the kudos is wrapped up in Grand Seiko.



They had a good run in the late 1990's and 2000's, but they haven't made the intended jump to hyper-space....

Advertising sunglasses on their watch website was a mistake too.

Some bad marketing decisions and the failure to develop an in-house movement at the time they were planning to move on up towards the next level of true luxury watches was a big mistake. Even two bit outfits like Christopher Ward has managed to do this.

They've become an also ran.



I didn't ask, but my brother did say they're not that cheap as they're pretty immaculate as fakes go. But they always fail to get the anti-reflection coating in place.





That's the kind of watch one wears went you want everything going backwards, sideways and inside out.

I thoroughly approve!
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Aesthetically? I would have thought that would have become apparent when they were trying the thing on in the jewellers and handing over the $$$$£££££'s.

I suspect, that this behaviour is pretty much an internet phenomenon, and is an expression of conspicuous consumption.

If you're genuinely interested in watches, you take considerable time before making your purchase.
 
formby said:
The problem with TAG, is the same problem that Omega and Breitling and IWC have allowed themselves to fall into, albeit to a lesser degree. And that is a lack of discipline.

Loads of models, with not much to differentiate them released annually. Omega have [potentially] enormous cachet, they made the watch that accompanied Neil and the boys to the moon, but they seem hell bent on diluting it with multiple models referencing it. I mean, Dark Side of the Moon, Grey Side of the Moon...FFS....????
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Dark side is an insanely good looking watch.
 
doghouse said:
I think the late 90s weren't very good.

They definitively don't do anything to the ETA movements they get, that's why their watches only cost 1200 bucks. They make plenty of their own movements as well though for the Carreras and stuff in the 2-3k range, always have.

Only TAG I've ever had was a quartz F1 I received as a gift, my watches have always been Omega and Vacheron.
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My understanding is that there are no in-house movements at TAG? Even so, even at the lower end, Longines do make improvements to the movements bought in. A bog standard ETA movement with no calibration, or modification is going to be pretty dire. I've experienced these in the likes of Timefactors watches, shockingly shite time keepers.

formby said:
The problem with TAG, is the same problem that Omega and Breitling and IWC have allowed themselves to fall into, albeit to a lesser degree. And that is a lack of discipline.

Loads of models, with not much to differentiate them released annually. Omega have [potentially] enormous cachet, they made the watch that accompanied Neil and the boys to the moon, but they seem hell bent on diluting it with multiple models referencing it. I mean, Dark Side of the Moon, Grey Side of the Moon...FFS....????
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What you call lack of discipline, I would call lack of Quality Control.
 
doghouse said:
Dark side is an insanely good looking watch.
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It may be, but there are too many derivative models for the price they are asking. They are constantly having to discount their collections. That is not consistent with being a luxury brand.

Rolex, like them, or loathe them...know how to market their watches, and manage their collection.
 
doghouse said:
There's plenty of in house TAG movements.

ETA make a wide range of movements, from very shit to very good.
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ETA movements make their way into many watches. IWC for example. A good movement, is a good movement no matter who makes it. Better a good out-sourced movement than a crap in-house one. The in-house movement thing, whilst important, may be a little overplayed I think in the mid-level.

JLC movements are rated very highly, and have supplied movements to all (ahem) the trinity over the years.
 
formby said:
ETA movements make their way into many watches. IWC for example. A good movement, is a good movement no matter who makes it. Better a good out-sourced movement than a crap in-house one. The in-house movement thing, whilst important, may be a little overplayed I think in the mid-level.

JLC movements are rated very highly, and have supplied movements to all (ahem) the trinity over the years.
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Piguet as well.

I think whole in house thing for mid level and down is a total joke except for picking out who is a complete tit with faux watch outrage.
 
doghouse said:
Piguet as well.
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Yes, all the 'big 5' make fantastic movements, but its something that JLC are said to excel at. It's said that the reason that they aren't considered right at the top of the tree, is because their finishing isn't up there with the very best. The JLC's I have handled, the master series I found wonderful, and aesthetically, its the watch maker that I like most.

JLC chrono v Daytona...No comparison...
1053332.png.crop.1000.high.png




Rolex
 
formby said:
ETA movements make their way into many watches. IWC for example. A good movement, is a good movement no matter who makes it. Better a good out-sourced movement than a crap in-house one. The in-house movement thing, whilst important, may be a little overplayed I think in the mid-level.

JLC movements are rated very highly, and have supplied movements to all (ahem) the trinity over the years.
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Yes, but they all make improvements. Bog standard generic movements are shite.

Everyone makes improvements, except TAG, that was the criticism. And rightly so. If so the case.

doghouse said:
Piguet as well.

I think whole in house thing for mid level and down is a total joke except for picking out who is a complete tit with faux watch outrage.
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Even at the down market...Seiko produces in-house movements for their cheap ranges.
 
doghouse said:
Piguet as well.

I think whole in house thing for mid level and down is a total joke except for picking out who is a complete tit with faux watch outrage.
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Well, Rolex and perhaps Grand Seiko, are the only mid-level watch maker that makes all their own movements to my knowledge and they only developed their own chrono movement about 20 years ago, before that they used a Zenith and before that a manual wind movement whose name I am too lazy to look up.
 
Lord Buckley said:
Yes, but they all make improvements. Bog standard generic movements are shite.

Everyone makes improvements, except TAG, that was the criticism. And rightly so. If so the case.



Even at the down market...Seiko produces in-house movements for their cheap ranges.
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I think, again, what damned TAG was that they made too many watches, many that were hideous in the extreme, at too many price points that they couldn't justify the claim to being a serious watch maker.

Maybe, they should have created a diffusion line or whatever they're called to give them the volume, and moved the TAG Heuer name up market to focus on proper watchmaking. However, again has the Heuer name ever been associated with luxury watches?
 
Lord Buckley said:
Yes, but they all make improvements. Bog standard generic movements are shite.
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This is probably most erroneous and inane comment in the whole thread, which is saying something.


formby said:
Yes, all the 'big 5' make fantastic movements
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I'm talking about Frederic Piguet. Huge movement maker, apparently folded into Blancpain at some point.
 
doghouse said:
This is probably most erroneous and inane comment in the whole thread, which is saying something.




I'm talking about Frederic Piguet. Huge movement maker, apparently folded into Blancpain at some point.
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I thought you were talking about AP.
 
doghouse said:
This is probably most erroneous and inane comment in the whole thread, which is saying something.
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Not really, I stand by my statement and position: standard ETA and other generic movements without brand adjustments and improvements or chronometer credentials are shite. They are utterly low level entry level movements. Any watch maker that doesn't make improvements on this baseline is fooling the gullible buyer.

They`re deliberately sold at a level that the watch brand can improve, enhance and make them their own with a number of quality adjustments.
 
Lord Buckley said:
Not really, I stand by my statement and position: standard ETA and other generic movements without brand adjustments and improvements or chronometer credentials are shite. They are utterly low level entry level movements. Any watch maker that doesn't make improvements on this baseline is fooling the gullible buyer.

They`re deliberately sold at a level that the watch brand can improve, enhance and make them their own with a number of quality adjustments.
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Again, ETA movements span the whole spectrum of quality.
 
formby said:
Buckers, ETA make COSC certified movements, straight outta the box. In some cases they supply the same movement but in different quality grades.
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I didn't state anything less. But my position is sound: any watch brand that doesn't improve on ETA or bought in movements isn't really competing. All we are then saying, is that those brands are not watchmakers, but case and hand makers. A big leap in status, down and above.
 
Lord Buckley said:
I didn't state anything less. But my position is sound: any watch brand that doesn't improve on ETA or bought in movements isn't really competing. All we are then saying, is that those brands are not watchmakers, but case and hand makers. A big leap in status, down and above.
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If its a COSC certified movement why the need to improve on it? All you will be able to claim is that you use modified ETA movement rather than a stock one. Not much difference IMO.
 
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