Resume, Job Help, & Job/Career Advice

[Grand Potentate]

I do not exhibit this unconscious trait that happens when dealing with people.

This is what I'm having trouble with. Who are these people? And what's the difference between them and the non-people in your office?

I have to admit that I've never heard of Daniel Goldman and have no fucking clue what 'emotional intelligence' is. Honestly, it sounds like fucking claptrap.

How am I going to get out of this hole?

Get a new job.

fxh you seem to be up to date on corporate double speak. This shit ring a bell to you?

 

[fxh]

This is what I'm having trouble with. Who are these people? And what's the difference between them and the non-people in your office?

I have to admit that I've never heard of Daniel Goldman and have no fucking clue what 'emotional intelligence' is. Honestly, it sounds like fucking claptrap.


Get a new job.

fxh you seem to be up to date on corporate double speak. This shit ring a bell to you?

I'm not sure just how offended I should be.

I'll post more later but I'm not sure how much Fwiffo wants his stuff commented on/analysed. Still I spose he's made it public.

 

[Fwiffo]

I just don't understand how you got this far to begin with if kissing ass is a prerequisite.

My CV and results speak for themselves. And I achieved all my accomplishments in three countries and a good decade earlier than what most people who come to manage me could achieve.

This is what I'm having trouble with. Who are these people? And what's the difference between them and the non-people in your office? I have to admit that I've never heard of Daniel Goldman and have no fucking clue what 'emotional intelligence' is. Honestly, it sounds like fucking claptrap.

My peers. People below me. We call them "colleagues" in this firm. Coworkers. Work mates.

I hope not above me but then I was also criticized in the review that my non-confrontational manner to people ranking above me means I need too much guidance.

I just finished hosting a conference for my European counterparts for three days. This was after firing the people during the previous week. I got a phone call yesterday that one of my staff checked into the hospital and can't work for some time so it's bad timing since the team is already down by one. Even more bad timing I have an interview on Thursday and I thought I'd be spending most of my time till then preparing for it.

I'm not sure just how offended I should be.
I'll post more later but I'm not sure how much Fwiffo wants his stuff commented on/analysed. Still I spose he's made it public.

You don't have to post anything mate. I was just upset.

 

[LelandJ]

So you have managers much younger and less experienced than you? Is this a company where incompetence gets resolved with promotion when the person's well liked, and the real work gets done by people like you who don't kiss ass?

 

[Fwiffo]

So you have managers much younger and less experienced than you? Is this a company where incompetence gets resolved with promotion when the person's well liked, and the real work gets done by people like you who don't kiss ass?

Opposite. I'm the youngest in management. Experience wise - I've managed more people, for longer, and across more cultures than most of my peer managers.

 

[LelandJ]

So these people saying you have a problem are older than you?

 

[Fwiffo]

So these people saying you have a problem are older than you?

Yes.

Out of a one hundred person division, I'm the youngest next to the admins, a few fresh out of college entry level folks (2?) and one of my directs.

I've never had a problem with age though.

 

[Grand Potentate]

I've never had a problem with age though.

Yes, but clearly this is not your problem. Its theirs.

 

[Fwiffo]

Yes, but clearly this is not your problem. Its theirs.

They don't have a problem with me because of my age. It's because of my lack of emotional intelligence - empathy, whatever disability or defect I have.

The firm is known for very long tenured staff. They "grew up" in the firm and across the pond, it's roughly the same. There are only two insurance firms in Munich so being in either one is like winning the jackpot. Lots of double digit tenures. There's a certain culture.

My outsider status worked for me in the beginning and got me the job. I was assigned a task to be a disruptive force. Someone from the outside calling a spade a spade and taking a hatchet towards an operation that needed to be shattered and rebuilt was good. It was an asset for that assignment. I "grew up" in an American firm and worked in an American subsidiary (albeit southern one) so there weren't any complaints.

It isn't because people are older, are more reserved or have old fashioned sensibilities. If anything I'm usually the dinosaur because of my reserve, my attire and attention to professionalism makes me look like the one from the mid 20th century.

 

[Fwiffo]

Some bloke just reneged on an interview less than 2 hours away on a Monday morning. Who does that? He didn't squelch Friday afternoon and I was in touch with the recruiter all weekend. Did he suddenly interview and accept an offer on the weekend?

This is almost as bad as my hiring two people and they never showed up on day one only to tell me that they started a job - just not my job. It wouldn't be out of sorts if I was McDonald's manager - except I'm not.

 

[fxh]

fwiffo - I cant say for sure what the problem is - as I don't "get" a few of the things you seem to talk about. But lets try something.

Lets assume for the purposes of this exercise that your management has a point. Lets forget their language which maybe unsophisticated but lets assume the underlying premise has some validity: that is that you are a good performer but as far as advancing within THIS COMPANY you lack what might be termed emotional intelligence. Or to put it another way; you do your work well but you don't seem to have that human touch. The charm, personality, persuasiveness, likability - theres lots of aspects to what it might be.

Now - let me give you a common example often struck at work:

I say to a middle manager I have Ms. Entitled Bright Young Thing that she performs well but seems to lack the ability to receive feedback and adjust her approach based on feedback.

Instead of saying " Thanks for that feedback I'll think about it" she launches into a (polite) mini rant about "Thats NOT true I do listen to feedback and anyway a lot of feedback isn't positive and I don't think others know as much as me" and she keeps going. I might look for a way to point out that she is exhibiting exactly what the feedback says she does and in fact each appraisal over the last few years has noted the same thing. She responds " Thats the problem. People keep saying I don't listen to feedback but the feedback isn't any good"

Now - at this point I might decide shes incorrigible and she wont ever GET IT - that she clearly doesn't listen to feedback and because she doesn't she wont ever get the feedback = that she doesn't get the feedback. Me I'd probably give up - and quietly - not in writing or in words - write her off as a prospect. I'd also be careful about any feedback I'd give her. But she would be on THAT LIST - the list which doesn't exist of course.

So fwiffo - if you perhaps can see what I'm talking about - you might consider that perhaps - just maybe - you don't easily and fluidly interact with empathy, understanding and, for want of a better word "ordinary humanness" and perhaps that quailty you don't exhibit is valued by the company (I wont comment here on the irony of a German Insurance company valuing "humanness" - but I guess it is possible) . If you wanted you could work to get an understanding of what empathy is, what it means to others to have some warmth and charm directed their way. Most people do value it. In fact in my mind its the grease that makes the world go round.

Maybe you could take some psychological tests designed to test these qualities - I don't mean pop quiz stuff from magazines or some "consultants" and "coaches" who tout themselves but straight forward psychological tests that have been around for ages. I cant remember them all but theres some which aren't too bad as a starting point for a discussion about your style. Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI) is one I recall. [as a aside not I am not a "believer" in these tests as such but they are a useful starting point for discussion and thought.]

The Myers Briggs is also useful, NOT to scientifically decide your personality forever, but EXTREMELY useful to see how your (current) interacting style may intersect/conflict/enhance/cause problems with others personality/intersecting style.

Consider if yo think you might have slight tendency to Asperger scale tendencies and - may have to learn to understand how others work.

Learning more about how others (and yourself) work can be done, is interesting at the very least, and more than often highly rewarding in the medium and long run. Its also an essential part of growing up and maturing. It comes through family, life experiences and such for most - others have to put more work into it.

 

[Fwiffo]

Now - at this point I might decide shes incorrigible and she wont ever GET IT - that she clearly doesn't listen to feedback and because she doesn't she wont ever get the

I give feedback too. I'm a people manager. But it's more like "Hey, can I give you some feedback? If you're late to the meeting, it tells me you have other priorities." "Hey, may I make an observation? If you're late to the meeting, it wastes everyone else's time. Can you change that?" But repeatedly being told I lack some unconscious trait without causes (behaviours) is ineffective - it's almost the same as saying "You're rubbish." Okay - what can the recipient of the feedback do with that?

German Insurance company valuing "humanness" - but I guess it is possible) . If you wanted you could work to get an understanding of what empathy is, what it means to others to have some warmth and charm directed their way. Most people do value it. In fact in my mind its the grease that makes the world go round.

I'm actually pretty good at entertaining people. It usually takes me one meal or one hour with someone and I know what they really want. Sometimes I get good enough I know what they want before they know they want it.

Maybe you could take some psychological tests designed to test these qualities - I don't mean pop quiz stuff from magazines or some "consultants" and "coaches" who tout themselves but straight forward psychological tests that have been around for ages. I cant remember them all but theres some which aren't too bad as a starting point for a discussion about your style. Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI) is one I recall. [as a aside not I am not a "believer" in these tests as such but they are a useful starting point for discussion and thought.]

The Myers Briggs is also useful, NOT to scientifically decide your personality forever, but EXTREMELY useful to see how your (current) interacting style may intersect/conflict/enhance/cause problems with others personality/intersecting style.

Learning more about how others (and yourself) work can be done, is interesting at the very least, and more than often highly rewarding in the medium and long run. Its also an essential part of growing up and maturing. It comes through family, life experiences and such for most - others have to put more work into it.

I was an ENFJ but before I took that 7 years ago, I thought I was an I. I'm an ENFP a few years into my management career. I'm a high D and high C in the DISC model. I haven't checked out MMPI. I'll look into it. I do adapt my communication style based on the person's personality. I can do it with DISC.

I was at an interview today. Slight bump in holidays, compensation, bonus but the role is based in some village somewhere. I thought my parents lived in the country but this was a full 68KM further than that. What can I say, I was prepared and fired all my armour piercing bullets. He even egged me on a bit pointing at those accomplishments for more details but it wasn't until I got to ask two questions of my own that I realized he wanted someone who fired rubber bullets. At least I figured it out in the end. It was one sentence in a one page job description - I thought it was peculiar and prepared a few rubber bullets but didn't think it was the sine qua non of the role.

 

[Grand Potentate]

Keep at it Fwiffers. You deserve better than the pile of shit you've been handed.

 

[Fwiffo]

I met with my boss' boss today. I don't really see him as I'm not on the executive floor. Maybe once every three months. He was the one who hired me. I just realised that having the same DISC profile as him made things so much easier: content, delivery, humour, sarcasm. Compared to a one on one or other meeting with my boss - so much harder, teething, a bloody struggle to see things on the same wavelength and come to agreement. They both managed me for roughly the same time. My boss is coming up on two years. My ex boss, two and a half.

 

[Fwiffo]

I took my boss to a footy game. It was a bit interesting to replay everything at work again over three hours of drinks and dinner. His secondment being up, I am waiting till 2016 for the formal replacement to come from another office. The advert for his job is actually a ruse. No one in my office is getting promoted into the role.

Again, dwelling on subjects with him like if I'm so frustrated why am I still in the firm because there's a certain way things are done here. The shortest possible route between point A and B is never a straight line.

He mentioned how the CxO - the most senior man in head office of my division is impressed with me; although it was puzzling to him (answer: past laurels).

Luckily it wasn't as painful as I thought it would be.

 

[Grand Potentate]

The shortest possible route between point A and B is never a straight line.

This tells me everything I need to determine what a fucking asshole this guy is.

 

[Monkeyface]

I took my boss to a footy game. It was a bit interesting to replay everything at work again over three hours of drinks and dinner. His secondment being up, I am waiting till 2016 for the formal replacement to come from another office. The advert for his job is actually a ruse. No one in my office is getting promoted into the role.

Again, dwelling on subjects with him like if I'm so frustrated why am I still in the firm because there's a certain way things are done here. The shortest possible route between point A and B is never a straight line.

He mentioned how the CxO - the most senior man in head office of my division is impressed with me; although it was puzzling to him (answer: past laurels).

Luckily it wasn't as painful as I thought it would be.

How long have you been with this particular firm? If there's no way for you to be promoted it might be time to jump ship. It's been my experience so far that people who've moved around a bit in financial jobs, let's say at least every 3-5 years, are usually in a much higher position and get paid more than their peers who have been with the same company for that period.

 

[MFDoom]

Wow Fwiffo - it sounds like one of your higher-ups is using some soft touchy-feely crap to keep you from outpacing your fellow manager peers. I suspect they're all soft and threatening to mutiny if that Young Fwiffo Guy keeps advancing.

 

[fxh]

I guess I'm from a pretty different background but I can't ever envisage spending 3 hours watching sport or whatever with a boss. Especially one who didn't approve of how I operated.

Different aspects of how you describe the workplace etc leave me scratching my head in bemusement. I keep trying to work out what's cultural at the firm level, nationality level and industry level.

 

[Fwiffo]

‎

How long have you been with this particular firm? If there's no way for you to be promoted it might be time to jump ship.

Five years come October. I was at my previous firm for eight and a half. I'm open to new opportunities but I'm not desperate to grasp at everything.

I don't really care about the money. I make enough for me.‎

Wow Fwiffo - it sounds like one of your higher-ups is using some soft touchy-feely crap to keep you from outpacing your fellow manager peers. I suspect they're all soft and threatening to mutiny if that Young Fwiffo Guy keeps advancing.

Yes I happen to (still) be the youngest. I was trailblazing for the first 3 years - not so much now.‎

I guess I'm from a pretty different background but I can't ever envisage spending 3 hours watching sport or whatever with a boss.

He brought it up multiple times during his two year tenure in this office so I finally obliged - in a moment of weakness because it was after the infamous performance review. I don't normally do anything with my bosses outside the professional realm; dinner and drinks whilst on a business trip but never going over for a weekend BBQ or something. I maintain that distance with all my directs as well (slight exception with some of the 'special' women). Even if you go out with me I can go on for hours and hours about work so you don't actually get any personal dialogue with me. It's something one of my former bosses remarked - he just wanted to talk about sports, women, etc as mates and I said we can't be mates, you're the boss and when I met you, you had a corner office.‎

 

[Monkeyface]

That's what's holding you back imho. When the time for promotion comes, and there are two roughly equally good people, they'll always pick the person they like the most.

Besides, a lot of people enjoy talking about their personal lives. As a manger you should be able to listen to that and contribute to a casual non-work related conversation yourself. It's part of your job. You're managing people, not robots.

I've had managers that were 100% work only 100% of the time. It's awful when you're sitting next to that person for 12 hours a day. It's much more fun when you can discuss the news, new restaurants or places you've gone to, whatever comes to mind. I'd say a fun 5 minute conversation can increase productivity a lot.

Anyways, if you were happy with your current situation you wouldn't be posting here. Seems to me like you feel you can do more, have more responsibility, etc. Even if you don't care about the extra money that comes with that, it would be foolish not to look into that. If you could do the exact same job but earn 20% more you wouldn't take it?

 

[John Lee Pettimore III]

‎He brought it up multiple times during his two year tenure in this office so I finally obliged - in a moment of weakness because it was after the infamous performance review. I don't normally do anything with my bosses outside the professional realm; dinner and drinks whilst on a business trip but never going over for a weekend BBQ or something. I maintain that distance with all my directs as well (slight exception with some of the 'special' women). Even if you go out with me I can go on for hours and hours about work so you don't actually get any personal dialogue with me. It's something one of my former bosses remarked - he just wanted to talk about sports, women, etc as mates and I said we can't be mates, you're the boss and when I met you, you had a corner office.‎

This paragraph says everything about your current issues. I don't know if you've ever watched the American version of "The Office", but this is probably similar to how the Dwight Schrute character would likely describe his role as manager.

Fair or not, if you want to rise in management you have to have better interpersonal skills. You can be a Dwight Schrute type when your job is to spit out code all day, but when your job is to manage people, you need more. Management isn't just getting the best out of those below you, it's influencing people above you and people in other departments, other companies, and any GO's you might interact with. You influence people most effectively by winning their trust, which comes from building relationships. I'm a "wunderkind" executive myself and that other part is easily a third of my job.

But you know all this already.

 

[Monkeyface]

This paragraph says everything about your current issues. I don't know if you've ever watched the American version of "The Office", but this is probably similar to how the Dwight Schrute character would likely describe his role as manager.

Fair or not, if you want to rise in management you have to have better interpersonal skills. You can be a Dwight Schrute type when your job is to spit out code all day, but when your job is to manage people, you need more. Management isn't just getting the best out of those below you, it's influencing people above you and people in other departments, other companies, and any GO's you might interact with. You influence people most effectively by winning their trust, which comes from building relationships. I'm a "wunderkind" executive myself and that other part is easily a third of my job.

But you know all this already.

How uncanny, I was watching the episode of the office where Dwight becomes manager when I typed my post.

But yeah, depending on what kind of company you manage, about half of your time can be spent in meetings and stuff like that. I've read a research paper once on successful managers and how they spend their time, and I believe the ones that were most successful spend as little as 10% on doing what we would define as 'work'. The other 90% all involves interpersonal stuff.

 

[Journeyman]

That's what's holding you back imho. When the time for promotion comes, and there are two roughly equally good people, they'll always pick the person they like the most.

Besides, a lot of people enjoy talking about their personal lives. As a manger you should be able to listen to that and contribute to a casual non-work related conversation yourself. It's part of your job. You're managing people, not robots.

I've had managers that were 100% work only 100% of the time. It's awful when you're sitting next to that person for 12 hours a day. It's much more fun when you can discuss the news, new restaurants or places you've gone to, whatever comes to mind. I'd say a fun 5 minute conversation can increase productivity a lot.

Absolutely agree with this. I've had some really bad managers and they were bad because they lacked people management skills. They were promoted to management because they were good at managing work - dealing with crises, putting together stats, making sure things happened on time - but unfortunately, once promoted, it became clear that they were not good at managing people.

Of course, developing such skills can take time and the person in question has to be aware of the shortcoming, too.

The manager to whom I report now is quite honestly the best manager that I've had over the past 15 years. He's friendly, supportive, looks after our branch, vigorously fights on our behalf for better systems and resources, and is always happy to lend an ear or to give time off when needed. He often starts the day with a bit of personal chit-chat, giving us an anecdote about his evening the day before or about something that he saw on the way in to work and that opens the door to a five- or ten-minute chat about things before we get down to work. We know a bit about his home life and he knows a bit about ours and, as a result, we all feel closer as a group. There's a sense of camaraderie and mutual support and appreciation as a consequence.

The first manager that I had out of university (or college, if you prefer) was dramatically different. I suspect that, if he hadn't been my manager, I would have liked him because he was an entirely different person in meetings with people outside our team. However, when dealing with his staff, he was unpleasant - a bully who would intimidate and would take your work without credit or thanks. In the two years that I had that job, he said thanks to me once, and a co-worker and I were so surprised that we sat there, literally open-mouthed, after he turned around and left before turning to each other and saying, "Did he really say that?"

The unfortunate thing was that I really enjoyed the job but I left because I disliked working with that manager so much.

 

[Fwiffo]

I've never watched The Office - either version.

I didn't get parachuted into two international assignments because I have no people skills. It's a bit much when you're a Canadian coming in laying a torch and sprinkling napalm over everything. I find it unnerving people get that from what I write. I was bedside a few weeks ago the morning after someone who worked for me had a coronary and surgery. I got and paid for a 5x surge price uber to rescue one of my staff from the office when a flood shut down the subways; whilst being stuck on the train in another part of town.

I actually don't want to do more - just want to do well. And moving jobs for simply more pay is asinine for me - I'd have to rebuild all my relationships and establish my credibility again. It'd have to be worthwhile - maybe Africa, Latin America or Asia. I'm not really interested in Eastern Europe or Middle East.

 

[Monkeyface]

I've never watched The Office - either version.

I didn't get parachuted into two international assignments because I have no people skills. It's a bit much when you're a Canadian coming in laying a torch and sprinkling napalm over everything. I find it unnerving people get that from what I write. I was bedside a few weeks ago the morning after someone who worked for me had a coronary and surgery. I got and paid for a 5x surge price uber to rescue one of my staff from the office when a flood shut down the subways; whilst being stuck on the train in another part of town.

I actually don't want to do more - just want to do well. And moving jobs for simply more pay is asinine for me - I'd have to rebuild all my relationships and establish my credibility again. It'd have to be worthwhile - maybe Africa, Latin America or Asia. I'm not really interested in Eastern Europe or Middle East.

To be fair, we're only commenting on what you type here, as we don't know you in real life. You might be the most personable guy ever, but I wouldn't know it from what you had posted so far in this thread.

 

[fxh]

I think I've been misunderstood or misrepresented.
I said I couldn't imagine spending 3 hours outside of work at a sports event with a boss and discussing my appraisal.
I didn't mean one should only be 100% work - I'm happy to chat about family, life, clothes, politics, policy, science, music in particularly, the weather, philosophy - for hours at work if its entertaining and there is isnt something genuinely urgent to get done. I just don't do sport and macho blokes talk.


I don't like to mix work and social too much. It can lead to favouritism/nepotism or at least perceptions of favouritism. I try to spend time, not always a lot, at the cleaners xmas party as well as the board.

I don't mind some drinks after work occasionally and such. But I'd never do it every week. And I wont do it in a exclusively male/jock/macho/sport environment that excludes the women (or other men like me -not into that scene) in the workplace. I'm not adverse to a looong friday lunch after a big project or achievement - but it would be less than once a month and I'd book a place all could afford and not start until 1 - 1.30 pm and not expect anyone to work much after coming back at say 3.30- 3.30 or so. Workers get to go to the doctor etc without having to take official sick time - if they are sensible and don't rort it. Sick kid - no problem work from home if you can - or do half a day work and take half a day leave. Or just get that one important thing done by the deadline. Car stolen or smashed - ok have a work car for a few days. Not forever.

edit:: I should add that, as I keep mentioning, my experience is probably different to most. For a long time I've either been a Senior Executive, CEO and /or Board Director. I started off as a CEO of small organisations and some grew and I also changed jobs. Most people I've been directly responsible for under me is 450. More - some thousands as a Board Director. I've never worked my way up in one organisation. Thats probably different to most people. I've never been promoted in an organisation.

 

[fxh]

fwiffo - I think I've qualified everything I've written here in response to you with what monkey said or similar.

 

[MFDoom]

I don't think anyone here really lacks in people skills (or maybe all of us do), but two things that come to mind that I haven't heard are 1) small, consistent doses, and 2) genuine interest in other people's lives. Maybe you do that, maybe you don't - it's not the sort of thing you'd think to mention, but it's an everyday thing for me. My boss is good at this; I like to think I am as well. If Jane tells me on Tuesday that her neighbors were making a racket last night, Wednesday I'm asking if the neighbors behaved. I always have a moment to see a picture / watch a video of someone's children. One of the admins is starting to work out; First thing I ask her is if she worked out, and congratulate her when she has. Just because I'm an evil would-be failed dictator doesn't mean I can't run a friendly, focused ship.

 

[Russell Street]

If Jane tells me on Tuesday that her neighbors were making a racket last night, Wednesday I'm asking if the neighbors behaved. I always have a moment to see a picture / watch a video of someone's children. One of the admins is starting to work out; First thing I ask her is if she worked out, and congratulate her when she has.

So I get that women are chatty bitches that can't leave their personal lives at home, but do men require this too? I wouldn't care for it myself.

 

[Thruth]

So I get that women are chatty bitches that can't leave their personal lives at home, but do men require this too? I wouldn't care for it myself.

Everyone can benefit by this. Successful management communicates the idea of a benevolent dictatorship where people are important, their input is important but often decisions are made by the leader without their direct input. You find out more about an organization from small talk sometimes than in meetings or strategic planning sessions. When people feel free to share thoughts and ideas, they feel they are part of the organization.

Knowing about who works for you is as important as knowing how they work for you. Seemingly innocuous non-work chats are critical for you as the manager to get to know your people and for them to get to know you (or think they know you).

I guarantee you can learn more about your organization from having a smoke with the janitors sometimes than from your senior leadership team.

Look at Undercover Boss. Donning a disguise and hanging with he little people leads you to become more weepy and touchy feely. Plus you get to wear a disguise and lie to them about who you really are. Did I mention that?

 

[Russell Street]

Look at Undercover Boss.

This is exactly why I don't do this. I don't need people telling me about their kid's health problems or how they're living with their mother or they married an abusive junkie. I think I'll stay out of managerial work.

 

[fxh]

One of my many mottos: "Today's trivial gossip is tomorrow's important business intelligence"

 

[MFDoom]

So I get that women are chatty bitches that can't leave their personal lives at home, but do men require this too? I wouldn't care for it myself.

Some do, some don't. The keyword here is reciprocity.

This is exactly why I don't do this. I don't need people telling me about their kid's health problems or how they're living with their mother or they married an abusive junkie. I think I'll stay out of managerial work.

Ah but here's the rub: someone has problems at home - they're likely to show up in their work product, demeanor, etc. If you know this, you can better manage the employee and the situation - particularly if you manage a team.

 

[prince nez]

A guy I manage came to me yesterday complaining about a junior staff member who is apparently praying to Allah in the cubicles outside his office. I haven't noticed it myself before, and it's Ramadan, so possibly it's a short term display of devotion. The Junior is new and from the Islamic Republic (probably not Islamic State though I can't be 100% sure).

I didn't want to be flippant but my first reaction was to ask if the guy complaining could just deal with it as he is the only one who has mentioned it. He also has an office, he can close his door if it bothers him. We have quite a few staff from Pakistan, Iran, Kuwait etc. and I don't want to get them offside for telling this guy off for not using a prayer room rather than the middle of a 4x2 cubicle. OTOTH it's not a behaviour I want to encourage, not because I care which god he worships, but because we do have a prayer room for that and it's not really appropriate for me to start giving out wafers and red wine in the office either.

I've tried to take a soft approach first as it's a bit of a delicate issue. The devoted chap is friends with another Iranian who has been here longer than me and whom the other guy knows well. AFAIK he doesn't pray in the office. I suggested the complainer gently raise the issue with this friend, who can then suggest the pious fellow use the prayer room... rather than get involved myself from the start - simply because just by being involved I could escalate it.

Not sure if my logic is sound - to be frank I have some deadlines looming and I'm wondering if my decision-making process on this matter was influenced by what is easier for me, rather than what is the right thing to do.

 

[Thruth]

A guy I manage came to me yesterday complaining about a junior staff member who is apparently praying to Allah in the cubicles outside his office. I haven't noticed it myself before, and it's Ramadan, so possibly it's a short term display of devotion. The Junior is new and from the Islamic Republic (probably not Islamic State though I can't be 100% sure).

I didn't want to be flippant but my first reaction was to ask if the guy complaining could just deal with it as he is the only one who has mentioned it. He also has an office, he can close his door if it bothers him. We have quite a few staff from Pakistan, Iran, Kuwait etc. and I don't want to get them offside for telling this guy off for not using a prayer room rather than the middle of a 4x2 cubicle. OTOTH it's not a behaviour I want to encourage, not because I care which god he worships, but because we do have a prayer room for that and it's not really appropriate for me to start giving out wafers and red wine in the office either.

I've tried to take a soft approach first as it's a bit of a delicate issue. The devoted chap is friends with another Iranian who has been here longer than me and whom the other guy knows well. AFAIK he doesn't pray in the office. I suggested the complainer gently raise the issue with this friend, who can then suggest the pious fellow use the prayer room... rather than get involved myself from the start - simply because just by being involved I could escalate it.

Not sure if my logic is sound - to be frank I have some deadlines looming and I'm wondering if my decision-making process on this matter was influenced by what is easier for me, rather than what is the right thing to do.

If it works then it was the right thing to do. Often managing is influencing or tapping others to do the actual job because it might be more successful than if you did it yourself.

 

[prince nez]

I agree - if it works it's right. Though I am now concerned that the guy who made the initial complaint will just drop it altogether because it's too much hassle. I'm not sure if that solves the overall issue though - it does from his complaint's point of view I suppose but as I said I don't want the office to become a mosque... or a synagogue, or a church...

I think I will hang around outside at midday today and see what goes down (probably a head to a carpet).

 

[fxh]

Nez - your strategy sounds fine. Its about getting the outcomes - no prayers out loud in cubicle, no alienation of staff, deadlines met. Whatever works for all outcome is the optimum solution.

OTOH - is the bloke praying out loud? Not too much harm done if he rolls out the mat a few times kneels down and does it all silently. OTOH again - if its OK to say no smelly food at your cubicle out of consideration for others, no loud heavy metal music on your PC in cubicle and a prayer room is available. Then use it buddy. Possibly hes not using it because women are using it at the prayer times. OK - mate - just book a meeting/breakout room for 5 mins.

Me - I'd probably do do something like get a few of the known muslim "leaders" in the office and have a short meeting - (no food supplied - small joke re Ramadan) and say OK I want you to just fill me in on the Ramadan thing (you should do this anyway to keep things clear) - food rules - when is sunset etc and about praying in office or prayer room. Then write a short to the point summary dot points of the Ramadan issue and let them police it (Religious Police!) or a day after meeting just rock along to this bloke and say "The Iman said use the prayer room mate"

Keep in mind he might be Shiite and the others Sunni or more secular. Or he might be a bit naive or he might be a dickhead.

 

[fxh]

I agree - if it works it's right. Though I am now concerned that the guy who made the initial complaint will just drop it altogether because it's too much hassle. I'm not sure if that solves the overall issue though - it does from his complaint's point of view I suppose but as I said I don't want the office to become a mosque... or a synagogue, or a church...

I think I will hang around outside at midday today and see what goes down (probably a head to a carpet).

Even if the guy drops it - its still your issue.

 

[fxh]

Ramadam is pretty easy this year here - still dark at 7am isn't it and dark again by 5.30pm - geez I often don't eat at all till 7pm.