The All-Inclusive Shoe & Boot Thread

[Dropbear]

You could follow Crompton. Buy Viberg boots - unless you can find a more expensive brand. Start talking about ‘stitched down versus Goodyear welt’

Obviously you would not use them for any serious type of work.

Permanent Style

Viberg Service Boots: My choice of work boot

www.permanentstyle.com

Olololol. I should have guessed Crompers would wear Viberg. Although I suspect he is going to be waxing lyrical about some of the Japanese craftsman like White Kloud once he discovers them. Actually, I’m surprised he isn’t shilling for Kreosote boots.

 

[The Shooman]

That's the first time I've read (as opposed to laughing at Crompie). He does go into nearly as much detail as Shooey. But does he know as much?

Shooey: Is Craptom talking sense about 'stitch down' versus GYW?

Dressing up lowend as highend
Crompton is talking up a boot with serious construction flaws. Such a construction is never highend no matter how the maker tries to dress it up as highend. Actually, the double sole stitch makes the situation much worse, and stitching through the upper to the midsole to the outsole makes it much worse again.

Now, if they just stitched through to the midsole and glued the rubber outsole on and told their customers to get a new outsole as soon as they start wearing through to the midsole, that would avoid many problems.

Is it better that GYW for camping and hiking?
You bet. The out-turned double stitched upper makes it hard for water to get in, and no gemming failure. GYW would not be suitable for this purpose. Is it an ideal hiking/camping boot? No, because it is constructed cheaply with major cuts in quality. A proper boot would be norvegese constructed and cut no corners.

The construction problems
1). No hand inseaming to a midsole (not insole). This will make resoles difficult to establish the original fit. It is an out turned upper, so to do it properly needs hand inseaming. No gemming can be used here, so inseaming is the only option, but it cuts this crucial step out to save on costs. This is very bad.
2). A stitched out turned upper directly attached to the midsole, and it is double stitched in smaller spi. That will mash those uppers really quickly and greatly limit any resoles. Uppers will be swish cheese after a second resole and boots will be useless after that.
Note: the construction breaks all the golden rules of shoo construction = it quickly damages the uppers, and the ability to create the original fit after a resole is massively compromised. This construction is bad in every way and one of the lowest end constructions. Almost as bad as brass screwed constructions used by R.M.Williams.

This is NOT a highend boot, it is a boot trying to imitate highend using the lowest construction techniques, and hence it is full of construction flaws. All they had to do is glue the outsole and the problem would have been solved PROVIDED the customer replace the outsole as soon as the leather midsole become exposed.

I look at Criomptons boot and l cringe at the construction used. Even worse, it has an inturned upper at the waist that is glued with a stitched midsole - outsole with no stitching to upper....very weird and silly. This boot is all style over substance, and a real boot maker would never do such ridiculous things.

 

[Thruth]

That's the first time I've read (as opposed to laughing at Crompie). He does go into nearly as much detail as Shooey. But does he know as much?

Shooey: Is Craptom talking sense about 'stitch down' versus GYW?

Stitchdown = Veldtschoen

​

 

[The Shooman]

Stitchdown = Veldtschoen

​

Belongs to the same family.

Stitchdown = usually without a lining (1 part to construction)
Veldtschoen = stitchdown + gemmed feather that a lining is attached to (2 parts to construction).

They need to do it that way with Veldtschoen to keep the lining intact properly. If it was proper norvegese they could cut the lining at the midsole and require no silly inseaming for a lining, but due to the lowend constructiuon they need to attach the lining to a gemmed feather on the midsole (so silly). See, when you cut corners you need to invent dumb ideas to solve problems.

 

[Kingstonian]

Olololol. I should have guessed Crompers would wear Viberg. Although I suspect he is going to be waxing lyrical about some of the Japanese craftsman like White Kloud once he discovers them. Actually, I’m surprised he isn’t shilling for Kreosote boots.

I googled Kreosote. They would definitely fit the bill. Big price tag.

Now that bespoke might not be looking so profitable for Crompton, the urban lumberjack is an alternative. He will mention expensive shops and target stuff that they stock. If Kreosote are available in such places then Crompton may pen a few lines.

When he says ‘ I spoke to friends that were consumers, friends that were retailers, and a journalist or two.’ that is code for I am actively searching new possibilities for freebies, retainers and commissions.

 

[Thruth]

I googled Kreosote. They would definitely fit the bill. Big price tag.

Now that bespoke might not be looking so profitable for Crompton, the urban lumberjack is an alternative. He will mention expensive shops and target stuff that they stock. If Kreosote are available in such places then Crompton may pen a few lines.

When he says ‘ I spoke to friends that were consumers, friends that were retailers, and a journalist or two.’ that is code for I am actively searching new possibilities for freebies, retainers and commissions.

The bottom line is that Craptom chose the most obvious and popular I-gent Viberg boot and last which is based on a Canadian military parade boot (service boot). The soles on his Viberg's is not a pushing bush sole given that it is flat without any lugs. There is nothing like it in Viberg's work boot line. Viberg saw how the Dayton service boot via their collaboration with Wings + Horns went ballistic with the SWD crowd and sought to exploit that into a new foray into upscale boots and shoes. Then the copycats came like Thursday Boot.

You can get Daytons at a couple of few hundred dollars cheaper with the same construction. A canny buy. You can also get bespoke from Dayton where you cannot from Viberg.

Pooh-poohing stitch down construction is a non-North American thing to do. White's, Nick's, Wesco et al use stitch down for their industrial boots boots worn for purpose. They last forever and owner's have them resoled and recrafted just like fancy Northhampton and Euro shoes.

Truth is that a properly fitted pair of $300 Red Wing boots last forever too and via experience are as comfortable as any of my high end office shoes.

 

[Dropbear]

^
My man Thruth did me a huge solid many years ago by putting me onto Dayton’s service boots.

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

Some people have a lot of (bad) fantasy: this customer wanted to have the reproduction of the Melencolia, engraving by Albrecht Duerer, on his footwear and Altan Bottier was glad to please.

View attachment 37768

That's real Dutch ageing hipster shoes. They dig it.

Talking about shoe collections, who remembers The Hand made Burmese Teak shoe cabinet and the big daddy Lobbs and Greens?https://www.styleforum.net/threads/...espoke-burmese-teak-wood-shoe-cabinet.121126/ The history has a second half and is that the guy offloaded majority of the shoes later on ebay/ B&S on SF

Lacking in the Egyptian elements of an Art Deco pyramid contraption, it isn't quite the shoe pyramid one is searching for.

 

[Kingstonian]

I am happy with Veldtschoen. Officers shoes and boots. Prevented the widespread issue of trench foot during the First World War.

Hoggs of Fife shoes. Cheaney for Marks and Spencer boots( yes they were going through a Best of British phase) half price in a sale. Trouble is nine hole boot does not leave much room for laces and I have a high instep. Ended up using lock laces which makes life easier. Ordered boots without trying on as it was a sale and I wanted a pair at the bargain price.

Roxburgh (with Rubber Sole) by Hoggs of Fife

Roxburgh (with Rubber Sole) by Hoggs of Fife from Fife Country. The Roxburgh is a classic British country shoe.

www.fifecountry.co.uk

Pennine II C Veldtschoen Derby Boot in Burgundy Grain Leather

Cheaney Pennine II C nine eyelet Veldtschoen country boot with bellows tongue, hand finished in burgundy grain leather. Fantastic style icon with its rugged good looks.

www.cheaney.co.uk

Crompton gets all sniffy about Northampton in the same way he does with provincial tailors in the U.K. I suspect there are slim pickings for commissions, retainers & freebies. He is more likely to get called out as well.

Styles: Veldtschoen | Classic Shoes For Men

classicshoesformen.com

 

[florisgreen]

An entry level goodyear-welted shoe from Prime Shoes in dark brown grain calf. I wear them as a workhorse, being really cozy, maybe too much, as they are very roomy and hardly provide any support. Here combined with Bresciani merino blend houndstooth socks.

 

[Halberstram]

W I Shoeguy goes in way above his head with Big Johnny Lobb and falls flat on his face. He proves he is far from being a BIG Daddy. He is a little daddy at most, and wayyy out of his depth. Sad, but many lads don't have the BIG Daddy genes like Truth etc.

Wisconsin shoe agricola wears Edward Green Dover, has potato feet and thinks Vass is „not remotely close“ to Green.

 

[Grand Potentate]

heads up Registered - Sky Valet is running 40% off on Aldens. sizes seem limited but a few are still out there. if sure our US members can ship overseas if anyone needs it.

Alden shoes — Sky Valet Shoes

www.skyvaletshoes.com

 

[Mattrick]

I noticed that G&G are offering an 'Optimum' range which are MTO on their regular lasts but to bespoke standards. So we're talking hand welted, hand-stitched sole, etc.

I wonder how much. I'd imagine at least £3,000.

 

[Mattrick]

I did a test.

 

[Halberstram]

I did a test.

View attachment 38012

Ololololo what’s wrong with this Tony? He is a fucking LUNATIC like that tacky, Tony Montana! In Naples would get you slapped such a price. Only in Via Chiaia for degenerates and dungeon seekers.

 

[Sammy Ambrose]

I noticed that G&G are offering an 'Optimum' range which are MTO on their regular lasts but to bespoke standards. So we're talking hand welted, hand-stitched sole, etc.

I wonder how much. I'd imagine at least £3,000.

I only have bench made shoes (although some Northampton makers deem these to be 'hand-made', ) and I have never been convinced that a man holding a shoe and a needle and stitching multiple times can consistently do a better job than when he holds the shoe up to a machine. Handwork surely has to be confined to fine details as occurs when a house is painted.

Big Shoo Daddies, please enlighten me without delving into the metaphysical.

 

[The Shooman]

I only have bench made shoes (although some Northampton makers deem these to be 'hand-made', ) and I have never been convinced that a man holding a shoe and a needle and stitching multiple times can consistently do a better job than when he holds the shoe up to a machine. Handwork surely has to be confined to fine details as occurs when a house is painted.

Big Shoo Daddies, please enlighten me without delving into the metaphysical.

Hand work in shoe stitching makes all the difference.

1). A real shoo daddy will have his shoes handwelted because he understands that a GYW shoe with a high plastic feather being gemmed to his insoles (GYW) stops his shoe from molding properly to his feet.

2). A real shoo daddy will have his soles stitched by hand because he understands that machine stitched soles and hand stitched soles are stitched completely different. A machine stitched sole is limited because of the unique way a machine sews a sole, and this causes the stitch to have tension in the sewing which makes for a stiffer sole that doesn't mold properly to the feet (hard to explain, but the John Lobb bespoke man explains it). A hand stitched sole, however, molds to the foot because their isn't the stitch creating tension and restricting flexibility.

This explains why a double soled Vass feels like a sneaker (soft and flexible) where-as a double soled Trickers feels like a big stiff battleship. It explains why bespoke feels flexibile like a second skin (handwork in the construction). You will NEVER EVER get that feeling with machine constructed shoos. If you want a real shoo experience, the shoo must be hand welted with hand stitched soles (no exceptions).

3). A man should also have his shoos hand stitched to maintain the integrity of the shoo build. Nothing will ever create the perfect system that is a hand stitched welted shoo. The welt and hand sewing changed the entire shoo game, ie, the system was perfect in every way.

 

[Sammy Ambrose]

Hand work in shoe stitching makes all the difference.

1). A real shoo daddy will have his shoes handwelted because he understands that a GYW shoe with a high plastic feather being gemmed to his insoles (GYW) stops his shoe from molding properly to his feet.

2). A real shoo daddy will have his soles stitched by hand because he understands that machine stitched soles and hand stitched soles are stitched completely different. A machine stitched sole is limited because of the unique way a machine sews a sole, and this causes the stitch to have tension in the sewing which makes for a stiffer sole that doesn't mold properly to the feet (hard to explain, but the John Lobb bespoke man explains it). A machine stitched sole, however, molds to the foot because their isn't the stitch creating tension and restricting flexibility.

This explains why a double soled Vass feels like a sneaker (soft and flexible) where-as a double soled Trickers feels like a big stiff battleship. It explains why bespoke feels flexibile like a second skin (handwork in the construction). You will NEVER EVER get that feeling with machine constructed shoos. If you want a real shoo experience, the shoo must be hand welted with hand stitched soles (no exceptions).

3). A man should also have his shoos hand stitched to maintain the integrity of the shoo build. Nothing will ever create the perfect system that is a hand stitched welted shoo. The welt and hand sewing changed the entire shoo game, ie, the system was perfect in every way.

Very well written. As an advocate for hand made you are without a competitor (apart from the confusion at the end of para 2). But I am not going to venture into that level. As I have said on other posts for my tootsies the Sargent 109 last is made for me and the quality is as much as I need. They cost below £500 at full price. During this Covid pandemic I have spent a lot helping the disadvantaged survive and improve their lives and the feel-good buzz from that is as much of a high that I need right now.

But once again, your advocacy is the best Shooey. Keep on spreading the word and promote shoo big daddery as responsibly as you can.

 

[florisgreen]

A machine stitched sole, however, molds to the foot because their isn't the stitch creating tension and restricting flexibility.

This contradicts what you said previously (a machine stiched sole doesn't have flexibility and doesn't mold to the foot). Maybe you wanted to write hand stitched instead of machine stitched?

 

[Halberstram]

If I am not mistaken, I have never worn a handmade, hand-welted shoo. Since the remaining pairs of my Vass order are about to arrive, I’ll have ample time breaking such shoos in. Will report. What I do know is: I don’t want to wear shoos anymore which don’t have a proper, full leather lining. A sock liner which goes only half way of the shoo is an insult.

 

[florisgreen]

Very well written. As an advocate for hand made you are without a competitor (apart from the confusion at the end of para 2). But I am not going to venture into that level. As I have said on other posts for my tootsies the Sargent 109 last is made for me and the quality is as much as I need. They cost below £500 at full price. During this Covid pandemic I have spent a lot helping the disadvantaged survive and improve their lives and the feel-good buzz from that is as much of a high that I need right now.

But once again, your advocacy is the best Shooey. Keep on spreading the word and promote shoo big daddery as responsibly as you can.

Well, some people are happy having shoes that fit their feet properly and don't mind too much about the quality of leather or the possibility to have their pairs resoled many times or to have exclusively natural materials. Apparently you are happy with what you have and it's fine and good for you.

For somebody however it can be important to have well fitting shoes that furthermore are a product of skilled craftsmanship and have a high grade of integrity. As I see, "just" roughly €1,000 as an overprice on the regular MTO price for this nearly bespoke level at Gaziano&Girling is not excessive and would be well worth for the shoe lovers who look for those values. For me absolutely.

I don't have any pairs from Alfred Sargent (years ago I saw some here in Berlin, but I didn't buy them), but from the pictures the 109 last looks nice and classic:

 

[Halberstram]

Very well written. As an advocate for hand made you are without a competitor (apart from the confusion at the end of para 2). But I am not going to venture into that level. As I have said on other posts for my tootsies the Sargent 109 last is made for me and the quality is as much as I need. They cost below £500 at full price. During this Covid pandemic I have spent a lot helping the disadvantaged survive and improve their lives and the feel-good buzz from that is as much of a high that I need right now.

But once again, your advocacy is the best Shooey. Keep on spreading the word and promote shoo big daddery as responsibly as you can.

If you’re fine with around £500, why not try Vass at some point in the future? Besides, I fully agree there are many people who should learn what real values are. They would need to grow a spine, though.

 

[Sammy Ambrose]

If you’re fine with around £500, why not try Vass at some point in the future? Besides, I fully agree there are many people who should learn what real values are. They would need to grow a spine, though.

I remember Fritzil was into Vass with his Project Paprika.

I rarely pay full price for shoes. Unless I am really tempted I wait for a sale.

 

[Sammy Ambrose]

Well, some people are happy having shoes that fit their feet properly and don't mind too much about the quality of leather or the possibility to have their pairs resoled many times or to have exclusively natural materials. Apparently you are happy with what you have and it's fine and good for you.

For somebody however it can be important to have well fitting shoes that furthermore are a product of skilled craftsmanship and have a high grade of integrity. As I see, "just" roughly €1,000 as an overprice on the regular MTO price for this nearly bespoke level at Gaziano&Girling is not excessive and would be well worth for the shoe lovers who look for those values. For me absolutely.

I don't have any pairs from Alfred Sargent (years ago I saw some here in Berlin, but I didn't buy them), but from the pictures the 109 last looks nice and classic:

View attachment 38023View attachment 38024View attachment 38025

Yes. That's the last. The toe shape is more almond than would appear in the pic. A tight waisted shoe. Very soft supple leather.

 

[Halberstram]

I remember Fritzil was into Vass with his Project Paprika.

I rarely pay full price for shoes. Unless I am really tempted I wait for a sale.

Project Paprika? Is that some kinky stuff? The pictured Alfred Sargent looks absolutely fantastic. 100% my shoe. Vass with their €559 plus trees, toe plates and shipping will be doing more sales in the future, I think. I wasn’t really determined to buy any more shoes but at rates of around €300 on average, I couldn’t restrain myself properly. Only thing I‘d want is an Alt Wien with goyser stitching in Cordovan and a nice tassel loafer.

 

[Sammy Ambrose]

Project Paprika? Is that some kinky stuff? The pictured Alfred Sargent looks absolutely fantastic. 100% my shoe. Vass with their €559 plus trees, toe plates and shipping will be doing more sales in the future, I think. I wasn’t really determined to buy any more shoes but at rates of around €300 on average, I couldn’t restrain myself properly. Only thing I‘d want is an Alt Wien with goyser stitching in Cordovan and a nice tassel loafer.

Project Paprika was Fritzil promoting Hungarian shoe makers.

 

[The Shooman]

This contradicts what you said previously (a machine stiched sole doesn't have flexibility and doesn't mold to the foot). Maybe you wanted to write hand stitched instead of machine stitched?

I just saw it and fixed the mistake. Thanks for pointing it out. I often make mistakes like that....say the opposite to what l intend. Ughh.

 

[florisgreen]

Wearing John Lobb Chambord in Burgundy (actually it's more a deep red) Buffalo, 8695 last, "Chambord" (HAF) sole, with a pair of charcoal merino/nylon socks Pantherella "Laburnum".

 

[Dropbear]

Stitchdown Welt vs Goodyear Welt: What's the Difference?

Discover the difference between stitchdown and Goodyear welting for your boots. Learn why stitchdown is the most frequently used method for superior durability and comfort. Shop stitchdown boots now a

nicksboots.com

 

[Mattrick]

As I see, "just" roughly €1,000 as an overprice on the regular MTO price for this nearly bespoke level at Gaziano&Girling is not excessive and would be well worth for the shoe lovers who look for those values. For me absolutely.

The Optimum shoe, with VAT, is about three times more expensive than their standard shoes. The difference is a bit smaller if the standard shoe is MTO, but it's still quite a premium.

But I can certainly see why people would pay for this. Does anybody else make a non-bespoke shoe that can compare? There is Lattanzi, but the finishing (and, I suspect, the internal construction) is not at the same level, in my opinion.

BTW I like the Chambords. I was toying with getting a pair myself, but hesitated and they sold.

 

[florisgreen]

The Optimum shoe, with VAT, is about three times more expensive than their standard shoes. The difference is a bit smaller if the standard shoe is MTO, but it's still quite a premium.

But I can certainly see why people would pay for this. Does anybody else make a non-bespoke shoe that can compare? There is Lattanzi, but the finishing (and, I suspect, the internal construction) is not at the same level, in my opinion.

BTW I like the Chambords. I was toying with getting a pair myself, but hesitated and they sold.

As I wrote, the comparison is in relation to a Made To Order shoe, so the Optimum being not even the double, and for me a good deal, given that the shoe is completely handcrafted.

If you want to get a pair of Chambord, you can still have it MTO, I believe. Some years ago I managed to get a pair of Osner, a beautiful monk with hand-stitched apron, long time no longer in production.

 

[Halberstram]

The Optimum shoe, with VAT, is about three times more expensive than their standard shoes. The difference is a bit smaller if the standard shoe is MTO, but it's still quite a premium.

But I can certainly see why people would pay for this. Does anybody else make a non-bespoke shoe that can compare? There is Lattanzi, but the finishing (and, I suspect, the internal construction) is not at the same level, in my opinion.

BTW I like the Chambords. I was toying with getting a pair myself, but hesitated and they sold.

While it is certainly not cheap, it is almost a bargain: for €3000, you would otherwise only get 5 pairs of Vass or Bonafé which clearly bear less iGent status value.

 

[florisgreen]

At John Lobb not only they have introduced a lot of debatable or even horrible styles, but they also attempted to disfigure some iconic classics like the City and the William: they even call these disgraces "New Standard", on the 0015 last.

Here the classics on the 7000 and 9795 last:

 

[Halberstram]

The new heel stacks are magnificent.

 

[aristoi bcn]

Wearing John Lobb Chambord in Burgundy (actually it's more a deep red) Buffalo, 8695 last, "Chambord" (HAF) sole, with a pair of charcoal merino/nylon socks Pantherella "Laburnum".

View attachment 38026

Like the design, texture and colour of the shoes and of the trousers (hopefully part of a suit) a lot. But try light grey socks. The outfit will improve a lot.

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

At John Lobb not only they have introduced a lot of debatable or even horrible styles, but they also attempted to disfigure some iconic classics like the City and the William: they even call these disgraces "New Standard", on the 0015 last.

View attachment 38038View attachment 38041

View attachment 38042View attachment 38043


Here the classics on the 7000 and 9795 last:
View attachment 38048
View attachment 38049



View attachment 38046View attachment 38047

They look fine to me, but there's nothing going on there I can't get from C&J's more cost effectively, or Edward Green's.

A few years ago, John Lobb, had some awful dainty looking styles and they started to stock them here in The Hague at Pelger's. They ended-up heavily discounted in the sales. So much for big Johnny Lobb.

 

[Halberstram]

Open sesame!

 

[Mattrick]

They look fine to me, but there's nothing going on there I can't get from C&J's more cost effectively, or Edward Green's.

A few years ago, John Lobb, had some awful dainty looking styles and they started to stock them here in The Hague at Pelger's. They ended-up heavily discounted in the sales. So much for big Johnny Lobb.

Do you remember any of the model names? I'm curious and want to look them up.

I can't say I like the soles on those new City and William models. But for an Oxford and double monk from Lobb, I already would have chosen the Philip II over those models.

 

[florisgreen]

They look fine to me, but there's nothing going on there I can't get from C&J's more cost effectively, or Edward Green's.

A few years ago, John Lobb, had some awful dainty looking styles and they started to stock them here in The Hague at Pelger's. They ended-up heavily discounted in the sales. So much for big Johnny Lobb.

Probably they are substantially on the same level in terms of quality, but John Lobb can boast a greater prestige in my opinion.
By the way, I've noticed that they now offer the possibility of customizing in their website.

 

[florisgreen]

Do you remember any of the model names? I'm curious and want to look them up.

I can't say I like the soles on those new City and William models. But for an Oxford and double monk from Lobb, I already would have chosen the Philip II over those models.

The Philip is another classic, part of the "Prestige" line, and it was originally a classic captoe oxford with a discreet broguing, only recently they launched the double monk version. It's certainly sleeker and more elegant than the sturdy William, which nonetheless is a great classic and has many admirers.
As a double monk there's also the Camborne: