The knitwear thread

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
Fair enough.

Hey Dropbear Dropbear ,

no worries about medical doctors. You guys have your ways of doing things and we have our ways of doing things. Nothing wrong with medical doctors...they play an important role, and they can treat illnesses; they do things in the western way with modern science to back them up.

The old eastern doctors had a completely different mindset to treating illnesses, and it worked. Once upon a time the east had meditation and focusing on guiding chi to areas of the body before they went about their daily activities, and the mindset was so different. They believed in the things you can't see (energy fields etc), where-as western science focused more on the practical things that you could see and prove.

These days everyone is into the science and believing in things that you can see, so faith and miracles are scoffed at. But the traditionalists like me and others have seen the miracles and healings, so we do our ways of the east. Many of the western ways of thinking are completely lost on me.

I look like a traditional aussie on the outside, but inside my mind is all eastern and Chinese. I am into the old Chinese ways of thinking. Even as a little kid, l always knew that one goes into the mountains to meditate for years in order to perfect his character so he can become enlightened, after enlightenment he leaves this world and becomes a Buddha (perfect being).


anyway, better get back on topic. .......
 
Last edited:

Dropbear

Member in Good Standing
Messages
4,975
“The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both.” - Carl Sagan
 

Pimpernel Smith

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,595
What do you mean by condition?

nah, I have bought numerous Brunello Cucinelli new and none of ti compares to the vintage cashmere. The old Scottish cashmere is so special where-as none of the modern stuff is except for maybe Hermes made-in-Scotland (Barrie).



No substitute for cashmere. Cashmere and tweeds = the greatest fabrics of all, and both very Scottish.

I see the vintage scottish cashmere in very romantic terms. It was an old Scottish cashmere club few were part of, and l wanted to be part of that world when men wore the best cashmere jumpers in existence that the modern world no longer knows about. But even that doesn't describe my real feelings; like l said, it is a romantic love of Scotland and the old world of cashmere that men and women moved in....it is a love of the cold gloomy old days of Scotland and the homely comfort of cashmere, and it's representation of when man was more simple and family orientated etc etc. The Italian cashmere jumpers doesn't give those warm romantic feelings.

Every piece of vintage scottish cashmere amazes me. Every piece l see wows me.
Clearly, you've not spent much time in the Central Belt of Scotland. Other than Edinburgh, it will cure you of any romance with bonnie Scotland, Brigadoon, tartan, argyles and the music of Big Country.
Ronnie Corbett wore intarsia. It was part of his image. He lived in a house that backed on to The Addington golf course. Very funny man too.

View attachment 36153
He was into his shoes in a big way, in an interview he was saying that was on of his big passions in retirement. If you see any later interviews with him, he reverted to a very dour and flat Scots brogue.
 

kiwanja

New Member
Messages
2
I think this is a men’s knitwear thread...so apologies for crashing the party. I recently got fed up with my Uniqlo cashmere and started researching how to buy cashmere without the nosebleed prices. I found out about vintage cashmere and have been building a collection over the past few weeks...

I lucked on an 60 year old lady selling 2 Ballantyne cardigans for $10 a pop on Facebook marketplace, a cream and a green, in very good condition (no holes or stains or musky smells). Can anyone tell by the tags what era they are from?

I also found some Lyle & Scotts, Westaway & Westaway, John Laing, and Andrew Stewart which I don’t think I’ve never seen mentioned in any of these forums. The one problem I’ve run into is that a lot of vintage cashmere runs really big for me - I am 5’3” and 110 pounds, and wear mostly 00/0 and XS. I don’t mind oversized and even crossover to men’s S sometimes to find stuff, but Andrew Stewart’s stuff surprisingly fits perfectly on an XS. Maybe he cornered the market on small Scottish ladies, but there weren’t enough of them and he went out of business?
 

Attachments

  • 11F3DF51-44F9-4953-90AF-55CB27AF9ED7.png
    11F3DF51-44F9-4953-90AF-55CB27AF9ED7.png
    352 KB · Views: 14
  • 91AD98E7-2E00-4899-9D10-EF98B954345E.jpeg
    91AD98E7-2E00-4899-9D10-EF98B954345E.jpeg
    148.9 KB · Views: 17

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
I think this is a men’s knitwear thread...so apologies for crashing the party. I recently got fed up with my Uniqlo cashmere and started researching how to buy cashmere without the nosebleed prices. I found out about vintage cashmere and have been building a collection over the past few weeks...

I lucked on an 60 year old lady selling 2 Ballantyne cardigans for $10 a pop on Facebook marketplace, a cream and a green, in very good condition (no holes or stains or musky smells). Can anyone tell by the tags what era they are from?

I also found some Lyle & Scotts, Westaway & Westaway, John Laing, and Andrew Stewart which I don’t think I’ve never seen mentioned in any of these forums. The one problem I’ve run into is that a lot of vintage cashmere runs really big for me - I am 5’3” and 110 pounds, and wear mostly 00/0 and XS. I don’t mind oversized and even crossover to men’s S sometimes to find stuff, but Andrew Stewart’s stuff surprisingly fits perfectly on an XS. Maybe he cornered the market on small Scottish ladies, but there weren’t enough of them and he went out of business?

Your Ballantyne is 1980's. Dunno about the other. Yes Johnny Laing and Lyle & Scott have been mentioned numerous times before, top makes. You are very lucky to own those cardigans, they are from a golden era of cashmere, and they are becoming increasingly difficult to find.

Do you like your vintage Scottish cashmere?
 

kiwanja

New Member
Messages
2
Your Ballantyne is 1980's. Dunno about the other. Yes Johnny Laing and Lyle & Scott have been mentioned numerous times before, top makes. You are very lucky to own those cardigans, they are from a golden era of cashmere, and they are becoming increasingly difficult to find.

Do you like your vintage Scottish cashmere?
I LOVE them. Absolutely obsessed. And I’m so shocked how well-priced they are. I’ve scored most of mine for ~$14 to $50 an item (including shipping!). Sometimes they have small holes that I fix pretty easily.

The most shocking thing is how little pilling there is. My cheaper cashmere pieces pill like crazy, I have to constantly de-fuzz them. But the Scottish cashmere have very little pilling, even at high-friction places. I didn’t even know that was possible. It’s honesty such a gem, I can see myself easily accumulating hundreds of these knitwear and dying happily in a pile of floofy soft sweaters when I’m old and grey.

I also bought some Malo and Italian cashmere too. I love the designs as they are more contemporary / on trend, but I definitely notice more pilling. Italian cashmere is softer, but vintage Scottish cashmere is definitely sturdier. Scottish cashmere is like the Mithril that Bilbo gives Frodo - light, but deceptively strong.
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
I LOVE them. Absolutely obsessed. And I’m so shocked how well-priced they are. I’ve scored most of mine for ~$14 to $50 an item (including shipping!). Sometimes they have small holes that I fix pretty easily.

The most shocking thing is how little pilling there is. My cheaper cashmere pieces pill like crazy, I have to constantly de-fuzz them. But the Scottish cashmere have very little pilling, even at high-friction places. I didn’t even know that was possible.

It is amazing how they don't pill. Even really expensive Italian stuff can pill. Yes, easy to become obsessed with Scottish cashmere.

Picked myself up an 80's Ballantyne and 60's Pringle recently. Absolutely perfect cashmere, nice and sturdy and thick, just like new. Washed them and the dye come out like they had never been worn before.

kiwanja said:
It’s honesty such a gem, I can see myself easily accumulating hundreds of these knitwear and dying happily in a pile of floofy soft sweaters when I’m old and grey.

Yes, l am the same. The vintage cashmere just amazes me every time l see them. Nothing is made like that today.

I also bought some Malo and Italian cashmere too. I love the designs as they are more contemporary / on trend, but I definitely notice more pilling. Italian cashmere is softer, but vintage Scottish cashmere is definitely sturdier. Scottish cashmere is like the Mithril that Bilbo gives Frodo - light, but deceptively strong.
Malo is decent, but not in the same league as vintage Scottish cashmere. Malo does pill more, same goes with Brunello Cucinelli. None of it compares to the old stuff no matter how high the price. Loro Piana is good,m but it is still not as good as the vintage Scottish cashmere (not as sturdy).
 
Last edited:

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
Very warm wool felted knitwear: 28 oz l read, over 2 pounds in weight.

These RYMHART - TROYER SCHWER are over 2 pounds in weight.

Black sheep knitwear seem densely knitted and reasonably fat: not as fat as l like `em, but it'll do for some blokes.

I got a grail piece this morning. Been speaking to the owner about jumpers for over a week. I also bought that thick shawl cardigan off him, but this is far heavier and warmer. This is the stuff dreams are made of; this is the real knitwear men don't find anymore.

A late 1960's Austrian `Dikter Derkogner' boiled jumper that is thick like a mat and highly condensed. It weighs nearly 4 pounds. It would be one of the warmest jumpers on earth, and even warmer than Dachstien.

Here's the BIG Daddy. He is the king of knitwear. I will wear it when l get up in the mornings during the cold months, it will be an amazing piece of clothing, and made to last forever.

Boiled wool jumper - Austrian Dikter Derkogner 1.jpg

Boiled wool jumper - Austrian Dikter Derkogner 2.jpgBoiled wool jumper - Austrian Dikter Derkogner 3.jpgBoiled wool jumper - Austrian Dikter Derkogner 4.jpg


This is the 60's Mc George he also sold me last week.
Mc George shawl cardigan 2.jpg

I am a pretty lucky bloke. Scored the huge Big Daddies of knitwear.
 
Last edited:

güero

Well-Known Member
Messages
802
there is some interesting information about sheep wool here: nordwolle.com

The wool from the Pomeranian Landschaf also has fibers that are 18 micrometers fine, but also up to 70 micrometers thick. And this variety of fibers forms the high performance that we need for our outdoor textiles. The fine fibers make our textiles windproof and close the pores in the fabric and the thick fibers loosen the bond and prevent capillary action. The water droplets then form on the surface and run off like on a thatched roof.

In addition, from 30 micrometers and thicker, the fiber is hollow. The air pockets in it ensure that the material is highly insulated and at the same time very light. As a result, our jackets are much thinner and lighter than similar jackets made of merino wool with the same insulation.

It also makes a difference whether you wash the wool with or without detergent before processing. If you use detergent, the wool is completely degreased. This makes the fiber brittle and no longer as elastic.
In our manufacturing process, we leave a high lanolin content in the wool right through to the end product. That's why we don't dye or carbonate. As a result, the fiber remains softer, more water-repellent and of course does not sting as much.

there is also a tv documentary about the company on youtube, where the owner talks about assessing wool quality and the various properties of different races.

e. oh and it's Viktor instead of Dikter I think
 

Thruth

Created the finest posts in internet forum history
Moderator
Supporter
Messages
20,222
there is some interesting information about sheep wool here: nordwolle.com





there is also a tv documentary about the company on youtube, where the owner talks about assessing wool quality and the various properties of different races.

e. oh and it's Viktor instead of Dikter I think
The Shooman The Shooman , the Derkogner is Dachstein wool from the Schladming-Dachtein region. They were a big producer in the 70's & 80's and seemed to have a pipeline to Australia at least for their Dachstein mittens.
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
The Shooman The Shooman , the Derkogner is Dachstein wool from the Schladming-Dachtein region. They were a big producer in the 70's & 80's and seemed to have a pipeline to Australia at least for their Dachstein mittens.


Is it because you have lived in very cold regions and you know all about these things? You seem to know everything.

@Truth, are the Dachstein jumpers the warmest piece of clothing on the market? Warmer than Dale of Norway stuff? Much warmer than 12 ply cashmere knitwear from Scotland? Can you talk about these things and set us straight.
 
Last edited:

Thruth

Created the finest posts in internet forum history
Moderator
Supporter
Messages
20,222
How do you know all these things; it is because you have lived in very cold regions and you know all about these things?
Through people I met people in the industry. Like you, I like to find information at the source if that can be had. But living where I live I'm as interested in the quality of my outdoor gear as I am shoos. Equivalent of your level of shoo & jumper enthusiasm. Bespoke and custom. I study the CLO insulation value of clothing. Test different insulations. Tinker with layers to give me the lightest, warmest layering system for the weather. Especially important and interesting given that I was born in a place where there was usually a city-shutdown blizzard on my birthday every year in March, almost 20 years living in the Arctic on and off plus living here now where we had -53C windchills last week.

One day you find yourself dreaming about what did Hillary wear on Everest? Ventile, what's that? And then you find an homage and an homage to the homage.

Screen Shot 2021-02-19 at 9.39.50 PM.png
Screen Shot 2021-02-19 at 9.40.14 PM.png


Standing on the shore of Gjoa Haven in Nunavut and wondering what did Amundsen wear when he iced the Gjoa and hung around for 2 years exploring?
1613792926058.png

1613792982800.png

Screen Shot 2021-02-19 at 9.43.58 PM.png



Why was the British-made Rab parka too warm for Inuvik which is above the Arctic Circle? Why was the MH Absolute Zero parka too warm as well? Gave them both to my Sudanese best buddy and he had never been warmer and he had lived there longer than I had. A second gen synthetic insulation was just fine.

What was that funnel neck heavy wool sweater the climber dude was wearing to scale Thor in Auyuittuq National Park on Baffin Island?

Dachstein? I'll have to check that out.

BTW, starting the truck.
1613793204657.jpeg
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
But living where I live I'm as interested in the quality of my outdoor gear as I am shoos. Equivalent of your level of shoo & jumper enthusiasm. Bespoke and custom. I study the CLO insulation value of clothing. Test different insulations. Tinker with layers to give me the lightest, warmest layering system for the weather. Especially important and interesting given that I was born in a place where there was usually a city-shutdown blizzard on my birthday every year in March, almost 20 years living in the Arctic on and off plus living here now where we had -53C windchills last week.

I think this may be the most fascinating post l have ever read, so interesting. I can well understand your interest in warm clothing given your location. I have become like you in that l am very interested in warm clothes too, but no way near your level of course because my circumstances don't dictate l take it all the way like you have.

The Arctic? What?? What were you doing up there? 😲


One day you find yourself dreaming about what did Hillary wear on Everest? Ventile, what's that? And then you find an homage and an homage to the homage.



Standing on the shore of Gjoa Haven in Nunavut and wondering what did Amundsen wear when he iced the Gjoa and hung around for 2 years exploring?


Wow, that nails this post and makes it one of the finest posts ever made in the history of internet forums. You think just like l do about this type of stuff....wondering what the old timers wore to keep warm, but of course you take it to a much higher level than myself because you've been doing this all your life. I've only become fascinated with extremely warm clothes as i've got older when the chill started to get into my bones and was hard to get out, ie, the last 10 - 12 years.

Just great Truth.
Why was the British-made Rab parka too warm for Inuvik which is above the Arctic Circle? Why was the MH Absolute Zero parka too warm as well?

Love the thinking Truth, i'd be thinking the same as well. Now l am wondering the same thing. You are blowing this post right out of the water, has there ever been a better post on the internet?

I've even been reading the bushcraft forums about warm jumpers (great reading), but nothing beats what you are writing here.

What was that funnel neck heavy wool sweater the climber dude was wearing to scale Thor in Auyuittuq National Park on Baffin Island?

Dachstein? I'll have to check that out.

You have a great mind Truth, you ask all the questions a proper man into warm clothes would naturally want to ask. I ask similar things these days.

BTW, starting the truck.
View attachment 36324

and that brings up lifelong questions for me....cars/trucks and freezing weather. How on earth do people start their vehicles and survive??? No need to tell me that, but it's a great mystery to me. You must have special cars up that way. If Oz got your cold, none of our cars would start and we'd all perish in days. You are obviously a real master of your environment...absolutely incredible you you have developed the knowledge.

Also love how you go to the source.

btw, l looked up the British-made Rab parka and MH Absolute Zero parkas. They are something i'd never need, but something inside me makes me curious about them and makes me want to test them out. Of course i'll probably never do it, but curious minds interested in the warmest clothes get curious about these things.

Sometimes l am jealous you get to live in those cold climates. Our winters never get as cold as l would like them to be....would rather ice cold winds blowing all winter with no sun so l can master the art of keeping warm with great clothing, but at least l get the chance to rug up during winter and enjoy the experience. Currently it is humid and hot, weather l DETEST!!!

Can't wait until the cold season comes back; i'll be pulling out my Belgium Army long johns, my thickest shawl cardigans, my BIG Daddy boiled wool jumper to wear on the cold mornings and all my thickest knitwear. Gotta say, that 34oz peacoat from 1949 keeps me warmer than any coat l have ever owned, l get too hot in it if l walk too much, but it is a good coat for standing around outside on on the coldest days. The problem with the 1949 peacoat is that it is restrictive of movement (low armholes or something, but not tight, but hard to put arms up in the air), but o.k when just walking normal with arms at your side.

The guy who sold me the boiled jumper said he used to ski in it before ski jackets were used. He said it was extremely warm and extremely heavy. I like heavy clothes, and l will be getting 18 oz tweed trousers made and the heaviest cords l can possibly get. I want to master my winter wear for my climate and individual needs. I have nearly completed this 4 year task. Need a few accessories (hats and gloves) and l am done. And yes, l will be getting those thick Dachstein socks to wear with my Kiss extra wide brogues that Fritzl sold me on special occasions when l really want to treat myself to the best in cold weather treats, the same as when l wear my English made 4 ply alpaca knee high socks reserved for the coldest days. I only have 8 pairs of alpaca socks, so l ration them...can't buy them anymore, they might get worn 8 times per year with shell cordovan Vass shoes (treat for the feet).
 
Last edited:

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
@Truth how does the warmth of the Buzz Rickson and Real McCoy peacoats compare with the Dachstein boiled wool jumpers and the other warmer coats?

I am curious about these things, so it would be good to hear what you have to say.

I will say that your posts in the `winter coat thread' and `knitwear thread' have opened my eyes to a whole new world l never knew existed; they made a huge impact years ago here. Eventhough l am a knitwear daddy (probably Australia's biggest knitwear and shoo daddy), you still leave me in the dust when it comes to being master of these things, none-the-less l have taken my lessons well and have taken big strides to become my own man. No-one has knitwear like i've got in Oz, l have a lot of fat daddies....the fattest of the fat....custom arans, super heavyweights, boiled wool, heavy shawl cardigans etc...got the lot.
 
Last edited:

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
and someone has a new custom title

Thank goodness it is Truth that got the title. For a moment l got worried because l thought you might have changed my title from `a pretty face' to `the knitwear daddy'. Thank goodness l still have `the pretty face'.
 

Dropbear

Member in Good Standing
Messages
4,975
Buzz Rickson and Real McCoy are Japanese workwear/denim head brands reviving ‘historically correct’ patterns like USN pea coats and deck jackets (aka Shoreshank Redemption jackets). If you are more interested in staying warm than looking like a 1940s sailor daddy, there are better options for the money.

Up until a few years ago, you could still pick-up good surplus USN coats and jackets cheaply. I think I posted here when I bought an excellent condition 1967 peacoat (Kersey wool, not the new Melton) for a little over $100. At that time, no one was interested in deck jackets so you could find them for much cheaper. Even the rare alpaca lining.
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
Buzz Rickson and Real McCoy are Japanese workwear/denim head brands reviving ‘historically correct’ patterns like USN pea coats and deck jackets (aka Shoreshank Redemption jackets). If you are more interested in staying warm than looking like a 1940s sailor daddy, there are better options for the money.

I very much like the navy look, hence white trousers with navy blazer and peacoats etc.


Up until a few years ago, you could still pick-up good surplus USN coats and jackets cheaply. I think I posted here when I bought an excellent condition 1967 peacoat (Kersey wool, not the new Melton) for a little over $100. At that time, no one was interested in deck jackets so you could find them for much cheaper. Even the rare alpaca lining.

Apparently the peacoats before 1980 were kersey wool.
Apparently the 1949 peacoat was the big daddy according to connoisseurs.

I had a wonderful 1970's peacoat that was the bees knees that l gave to a friend, and l also have the BIG Daddy and a couple of others that are lighter.

Looks like Anderson and Shepperd are selling 12 ply shawl cardigans in light gray and holly green.
Anderson & Sheppard 12 ply shawl cardigan.jpg


 

aristoi bcn

Spanish Rookie
Messages
405
I very much like the navy look, hence white trousers with navy blazer and peacoats etc.




Apparently the peacoats before 1980 were kersey wool.
Apparently the 1949 peacoat was the big daddy according to connoisseurs.

I had a wonderful 1970's peacoat that was the bees knees that l gave to a friend, and l also have the BIG Daddy and a couple of others that are lighter.

Looks like Anderson and Shepperd are selling 12 ply shawl cardigans in light gray and holly green.
View attachment 36335


Lockie.
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
Meh, Lockie does a completely different style. Most likely would be Scott & Charters, same style.

Kabbaz/Scott & Charters / Anderson & Shepperd (the same)


William Lockie v's O'connells v's different William Lockie style
William-Lockie-shawl-cardigan-1.jpg


4th and 5th pics: collars are exactly the same.
O-connells-12-ply-green.jpg

William-Lockie-6-ply-4.jpg


Also notice how the Scott and Charters and Anderson & Shepperd has this feature:
Anderson-Sheppard-cardigan.jpg


None of the William Lockie have that design.



Conclusion
Scott & Charters do only one style of 12 ply as Kabbaz once said, and they would do Anderson & Shepperd cardigans.

Lockie do various style of shawl cardigan as can be seen here, and likely do O'Connell's 12 ply cardigans.
 
Last edited:

aristoi bcn

Spanish Rookie
Messages
405
uhm, you might be right.

I'm a fan of the A&S's haberdashery. Some products have better value (trousers) than others (shirts) but in general their selection is great.

This is also Lockie.

windsor_website_pic_720x.jpg
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
Yes, definitely a traditional Lockie style. Simon Crompton's 12 ply cardigan that he had a specially made up would also be Lockie. Seems like Lockie can make up a variety of styles where-as Scott & Charters is limited to one style only. Been tempted to get it.
Simon Crompton 12 ply cardigan.jpg

I will say that the shawl collar cardigan is probably the most significant piece of knitwear. It is stylish, luxurious, very comfortable, rare, and quite costly. It is like an investment piece (dislike that term) and it is a great invention. I can't find words good enough to describe how good the shawl cardigan is. When combined with a turtleneck you have the ultimate statement in knitwear...high class winter style, great warmth with lots of comfort. A simple v neck 2 ply jumper could never make a knitwear statement like a shawl and skivvy combination can. I really need to get a few more shawl cardigans and make those and turtlenecks my go to knitwear for 6 months of the year.

As a teen and in my 20's l had a unique blue shawl collar cardigan with big purple buttons, it was a favourite for many years until it wore out. Wore it all the time. Made in Australia back then. I even gave a talk in front of about 800 people wearing that cardigan. I was a character back then, and probably still are.
 
Last edited:

Dropbear

Member in Good Standing
Messages
4,975
A woolly jumper is a good to wear under a jacket, but doesn’t the shawl collar make that difficult? Is it only worn as outerwear?
 

ballmouse

Well-Known Member
Messages
249
A woolly jumper is a good to wear under a jacket, but doesn’t the shawl collar make that difficult? Is it only worn as outerwear?

I have the same opinion for the shawl cardigan. It looks nice, but it's always seemed less functional than a winter coat like a tweed jacket which you'd wear anytime you would want to wear a shawl cardigan and more. The only possible time I could think wear a shawl cardigan makes more sense is maybe if you were participating in an indoor winter sport like curling where you want to use your arms a lot. But even then, you could just wear a normal sweater which would get a lot more use in general.
 

florisgreen

Well-Known Member
Messages
52
Hello everybody!
It's some time I'm following this forum and I want to give my small contribution. I live in Germany and I'm so passionate about nice knitwear. I already own a fine collection of cashmere and fine wool garments, mostly made in Italy and Scotland. The large part consists in classic items, like vee-necks, cardigans, waist-coats (sleeveless cardigans) and a few crew-necks and turtle-necks. The most-owned brands are Malo, William Lockie, Ballantyne and Harley. Other ones include Peter Scott, Della Ciana, Hawico (Hawick), Johnstons of Elgin, Alan Paine, Attolini, Aida Barni and Gran Sasso. In particular I'm so proud and fond of my series of Ballantyne V-necks made in Scotland, presumably the last ones before the end: as already remarked more times that Scottish cashmere is really outstanding and unique.
However, even agreeing that that quality is unmatched and unsurpassed, I have to state that I'm also pretty glad with the worth of my Italian stuff (Malo): I have jumpers as old as 20 years that still look great, almost new.
Maybe you will astonish to know that the largest part of my knitwear is unwashed. Maybe it's due to the fact that I wear everything with shirts (except of course rollnecks). Against moths I can recommend a spray named recozit, very efficient and good-smelling.
 
Last edited:

belinmad

Well-Known Member
Messages
299
Interested in the moth killer, but couldn't find anything online. Can you confirm the name and maybe say more about it?
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
A woolly jumper is a good to wear under a jacket, but doesn’t the shawl collar make that difficult? Is it only worn as outerwear?

Shawl cardigans are naturally worn as outwear as it would be impossible to wear a coat over it without looking really silly; the shawl is a beautiful feature that is meant to be on display.

A coat will always look sharper than a cardigan, and it can make a man look very smartly dressed, but a cardigan can make a man very well dressed in a casual environment.

I like shawl cardigans because they are more comfortable than a coat when sitting down, and they won't get creased when sitting down. If l am at home or doing casual activities l will often wear a cardigan; other times a coat is called for to present a more serious image. I used to always wear sportscoats, but as l have gotten older l wear a lot more knitwear; l like the flexibility.
 

florisgreen

Well-Known Member
Messages
52
Interested in the moth killer, but couldn't find anything online. Can you confirm the name and maybe say more about it?
Sorry, I mispelled it (now corrected), it's recozit Motten Spray Lavendel, you can find it also on amazon (de).
 
Last edited:

florisgreen

Well-Known Member
Messages
52
Shawl cardigans are naturally worn as outwear as it would be impossible to wear a coat over it without looking really silly; the shawl is a beautiful feature that is meant to be on display.

A coat will always look sharper than a cardigan, and it can make a man look very smartly dressed, but a cardigan can make a man very well dressed in a casual environment.

I like shawl cardigans because they are more comfortable than a coat when sitting down, and they won't get creased when sitting down. If l am at home or doing casual activities l will often wear a cardigan; other times a coat is called for to present a more serious image. I used to always wear sportscoats, but as l have gotten older l wear a lot more knitwear; l like the flexibility.
Yes, a shawl cardigan is surely meant to be on display, but not so a classic vee one, especially if made of thinner knit, it's great, as well as a waistcoast, under a sport coat or jacket. Shawl cardigans are usually very thick and have a loose fit, so quite unsuitable to be worn underneath another garment. As you say they are great in more casual situations. Personally I don't have any and prefer other styles and combinations, but can't deny that a shawl collar has its own charm.
 
Last edited:

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
If l could get a few 12 ply shawl cardigans in cashmere and a half a dozen thick cashmere turtlenecks, i'd consider my knitwear collection complete. Doesn't get much better than thick cardigans and turtlenecks in cold weather.

Actually, it is the last days of summer and it has gotten cold so l pulled out one of my 6 ply shawl collar cardigans tonight. It is a nice relaxed fit and very comfortable and style. I am going to pop it on soon, and am looking forward to it. Not as thick as some of my shawl cardigans, but l still love it. Doesn't ever seem to pill, not even a bit.
N Peal cashmere shawl 6 ply 1.jpg

V necks are just conventional knitwear for me. Shawl cardigans are very cozy and they can be quite homely.
 

belinmad

Well-Known Member
Messages
299
I wouldn't mind a nice 12 ply cardigan as an addition to my collection - even though there's probably just 2 or so weeks left this year to use them. Weather is getting promisingly better here in London. Time to switch from cashmere to merino (or finer cashmere).
 

Kingstonian

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,330
Shawl cardigans are naturally worn as outwear as it would be impossible to wear a coat over it without looking really silly; the shawl is a beautiful feature that is meant to be on display.

A coat will always look sharper than a cardigan, and it can make a man look very smartly dressed, but a cardigan can make a man very well dressed in a casual environment.

I like shawl cardigans because they are more comfortable than a coat when sitting down, and they won't get creased when sitting down. If l am at home or doing casual activities l will often wear a cardigan; other times a coat is called for to present a more serious image. I used to always wear sportscoats, but as l have gotten older l wear a lot more knitwear; l like the flexibility.
Surely you would be perished with the cold having to venture outside with just a shawl cardigan when it’s 25 degrees centigrade?
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
I wouldn't mind a nice 12 ply cardigan as an addition to my collection - even though there's probably just 2 or so weeks left this year to use them. Weather is getting promisingly better here in London. Time to switch from cashmere to merino (or finer cashmere).

It is something substantial and well worth the cost imo. It is a luxury that isn't easy to obtain. I would like to get a few while l can.
Meh, Lockie does a completely different style. Most likely would be Scott & Charters, same style.

Kabbaz/Scott & Charters / Anderson & Shepperd (the same)


William Lockie v's O'connells v's different William Lockie style
William-Lockie-shawl-cardigan-1.jpg


4th and 5th pics: collars are exactly the same.
O-connells-12-ply-green.jpg

William-Lockie-6-ply-4.jpg


Also notice how the Scott and Charters and Anderson & Shepperd has this feature:
Anderson-Sheppard-cardigan.jpg


None of the William Lockie have that design.



Conclusion
Scott & Charters do only one style of 12 ply as Kabbaz once said, and they would do Anderson & Shepperd cardigans.

Lockie do various style of shawl cardigan as can be seen here, and likely do O'Connell's 12 ply cardigans.

Here is a 4 ply Drakes shawl collar costing $1,600:
DRakes 4 ply shawl cardigan.jpg

while a Begg & Co 8 ply costs much less:
Begg & Co 8 ply shawl cardigan.jpg

The O'connells 12 ply cashmere cardigan = $1,300 USD
The Drakes 4 ply cashmere cardigan = $1,600 USD
The Begg & Co 8 ply cashmere cardigan = $1,200 USD

Why is the Drakes so expensive? Because it is supposed to be very high quality and made by John Laing. The others would be made by William Lockie imo and l am guessing not as good.

Would anyone pay $5,000 - $6,000 for a properly made 12 ply cashmere shawl cardigan? Probably not because there might not be a market for true luxury cardigans. I would love to have a business that sold $6,000 cashmere cardigans, but l probably wouldn't make much money.

Will from a Suitable Wardrobe also sold 4 ply cardigans under his own label and apparently made by John Laing. High prices like Drakes, and 4 ply also at nearly $900 USD. See how A Suitable Wardrobe cardigan is almost identicle to Drakes (John Laing) except for a minor alteration of a top button added. Obviously only one cut IMO, hence Laings being in 4 ply with all the same cut.
A Suitable wardrobe shawl cardigan 1.jpgA Suitable wardrobe shawl cardigan 2.jpg
 
Last edited:

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
Is this one Ballantyne? I had it on my watchlist and i forgot to bid. Just sold out for 37 quid


View attachment 36361

No, but Bryant of Scotland is a very good maker of cashmere jumpers. I own Bryant of Scotland.

btw, here is another shawl cardigan by Sulka, these ones were sold around 1993. The seller wants us to pay $2,500 for it because of the name, but what great makers were around at that time that warrant the high price? None that l can think of, the golden era of great cashmere jumpers was over by that time.
Sulka shawl cashmere cardigan 1.jpgSulka shawl cashmere cardigan 3.jpg
 

güero

Well-Known Member
Messages
802
It is something substantial and well worth the cost imo. It is a luxury that isn't easy to obtain. I would like to get a few while l can.


Here is a 4 ply Drakes shawl collar costing $1,600:
View attachment 36359

while a Begg & Co 8 ply costs much less:
View attachment 36360

The O'connells 12 ply cashmere cardigan = $1,300 USD
The Drakes 4 ply cashmere cardigan = $1,600 USD
The Begg & Co 8 ply cashmere cardigan = $1,200 USD

Why is the Drakes so expensive? Because it is supposed to be very high quality and made by John Laing. The others would be made by William Lockie imo and l am guessing not as good.

Would anyone pay $5,000 - $6,000 for a properly made 12 ply cashmere shawl cardigan? Probably not because there might not be a market for true luxury cardigans. I would love to have a business that sold $6,000 cashmere cardigans, but l probably wouldn't make much money.

Will from a Suitable Wardrobe also sold 4 ply cardigans under his own label and apparently made by John Laing. High prices like Drakes, and 4 ply also at nearly $900 USD. See how A Suitable Wardrobe cardigan is almost identicle to Drakes (John Laing) except for a minor alteration of a top button added. Obviously only one cut IMO, hence Laings being in 4 ply with all the same cut.
View attachment 36362View attachment 36363
Why do you think the Drakes is John Laing, doesn't it look identical to the Lockie Windsor?

I still think you are getting confused by or at least putting to much emphasis on the ply count. I doesn't really say much about the quality and beefiness of the garment, does it?
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,019
Why do you think the Drakes is John Laing, doesn't it look identical to the Lockie Windsor?
Drakes does look similar to one of the Lockie shawls, but l understand Laing has made for Drakes, T&A and A Suitable Wardrobe in the past, and all have high prices, much higher than companies that use Lockie.

Now T&A are using Corgi in Wales to make their shawl cardigans, but the prices are far higher than Lockies at nearly 1,300 GBP for what looks to be a 4 ply cardigan.

Corgi shawl cardigan (for T & A) 1.jpgCorgi shawl cardigan (for T & A) 2.jpg


I still think you are getting confused by or at least putting to much emphasis on the ply count. I doesn't really say much about the quality and beefiness of the garment, does it?

Am I putting to much emphasis on the ply count? Maybe or maybe not...difficult to say. Maybe the Laing factory is set up to limit what it can produce, it makes for retailers, and it tries to do as large runs on items as possible without variations. The Drakes shawls still look to be four ply, and they have been 4 ply in the past for numerous retailers. The shawl cardigans are always the same, but it doesn't mean the factory can't produce 6 ply or a different cardigan, but the machines are obviously set up to make 4 ply shawl cardigans in a certain style at a certain price point in the market because that works for them. If Laing did produce a 6 ply cardigan it would be extremely expensive and their might not be a market for it, so they seem to stick to a proven formulae and produce the 4 ply because they know retailers can sell it.

Scott & Charters also have limited patterns because their business model is focused on selling to retailers too. The Lockie factory is set up to manufacture a much bigger variety; their market is for less expensive knitwear and a bigger market, and they probably have more machines to manufacture knitwear so they can make a larger variety. This is what l think is happening.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom