Agreeable Menswear Post Of The Day

Johnny1

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QUOTE "Out of the price you pay for a bespoke suit, how much goes into paying inflated London rents (i.e. into the pockets of the Duke of Westminster, as far as Savile Row is concerned)? How much to the suppliers (the price of wool has gone up, but not tenfold)? How much to the apprentices doing the actualy sewing (very little)? How much to the cutters (and is it justified?) And how much to the owners, whether it be some Chinese/Hong Kong conglomerate, Gulf financiers, or celebrity tailors?" QUOTE

London rents in the W End are outrageous. On that basis alone if you remove the outliers of expensive SR houses like Huntsman, C&M and a couple of others they aren't that expensive compared to the Italian tailors who charge about £3k or so to make a suit in a far cheaper City (Florence or Naples) usually with illegal Romanian or Mainland Chinese workers!

It would be nice if there was a choice between SR tailors who charged less and worked from home or a little workroom outside of the West End of London and those that want to charge what they currently do and operate from expensive showrooms near Savile Row. However, there just doesn't seem to be much real choice out there. With the English tailors I think they have to get a prestige address or their snobbish clients don't think they are worthy of patronising. Then they have to pay through the nose to get a suit made!

The tailors outside of the West End are often cheaper, but from the few examples of tailoring Ive seen from them its not great in style or quality of make. I went to have a look at a Cypriot tailor called C Antoniou on Grays Inn Road which is near Kings Cross and Chancery Lane for instance. The jackets were in style like modern RTW, perhaps its possible to ask for something different, though personally I wouldn't take a chance. The internal canvass in the chest was hand padded, but with huge stitches probably a couple of inches long, I assume to save time. I believe a suit there is only £1.5k so for a junior at a law firm nearby perhaps its not a bad deal. I also contacted some current tailors working on the row about doing private jobs. Most quoted me prices not that far off what it would cost to go through the front door and order from the firm which makes little sense especially as they usually not all rounders (either they cut, or are jacket makers etc, don't know how to trim etc so have to outsource other parts themselves).
 

Pimpernel Smith

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3,218
It's the price of rent 'innit? GBP100,000 a month and you need to shift some RTW, shirts and bespoke. Hence the likes of Huntsman reinventing themselves as a lifestyle brand for oligarchs.
 

Untermensch

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Messages
182
QUOTE "Out of the price you pay for a bespoke suit, how much goes into paying inflated London rents (i.e. into the pockets of the Duke of Westminster, as far as Savile Row is concerned)? How much to the suppliers (the price of wool has gone up, but not tenfold)? How much to the apprentices doing the actualy sewing (very little)? How much to the cutters (and is it justified?) And how much to the owners, whether it be some Chinese/Hong Kong conglomerate, Gulf financiers, or celebrity tailors?" QUOTE

London rents in the W End are outrageous. On that basis alone if you remove the outliers of expensive SR houses like Huntsman, C&M and a couple of others they aren't that expensive compared to the Italian tailors who charge about £3k or so to make a suit in a far cheaper City (Florence or Naples) usually with illegal Romanian or Mainland Chinese workers!

It would be nice if there was a choice between SR tailors who charged less and worked from home or a little workroom outside of the West End of London and those that want to charge what they currently do and operate from expensive showrooms near Savile Row. However, there just doesn't seem to be much real choice out there. With the English tailors I think they have to get a prestige address or their snobbish clients don't think they are worthy of patronising. Then they have to pay through the nose to get a suit made!

The tailors outside of the West End are often cheaper, but from the few examples of tailoring Ive seen from them its not great in style or quality of make. I went to have a look at a Cypriot tailor called C Antoniou on Grays Inn Road which is near Kings Cross and Chancery Lane for instance. The jackets were in style like modern RTW, perhaps its possible to ask for something different, though personally I wouldn't take a chance. The internal canvass in the chest was hand padded, but with huge stitches probably a couple of inches long, I assume to save time. I believe a suit there is only £1.5k so for a junior at a law firm nearby perhaps its not a bad deal. I also contacted some current tailors working on the row about doing private jobs. Most quoted me prices not that far off what it would cost to go through the front door and order from the firm which makes little sense especially as they usually not all rounders (either they cut, or are jacket makers etc, don't know how to trim etc so have to outsource other parts themselves).
You said it yourself. They've become lifestyle brands for oligarchs.
 

Johnny1

Active Member
Messages
25
You said it yourself. They've become lifestyle brands for oligarchs.
I think some have and some haven't in the West End (I use this term rather than SR as there are tailors dotted about nearby not on the Row). Huntsman, Anderson and Sheppard, Kilogour have definitely moved in that direction. Richard James, Oswald Boateng and Gieves and Hawkes have pushed into the mass market (appealing to young affluent professional types).

There are ones who are still tailors, places like Dege and Skinner, Meyer and Mortimer (who have great suits on display in the window although I haven't tried them) and Kent and Haste (whom Ive used for several years now). However they are all expensive and prices are well out of step with what a regular guy can and would spend on a jacket or suit. From sitting around in the waiting area in K&H Ive got a sample of the type of customers they have, seems like its mostly a mix of corporate bosses, legal big wigs, medical consultants and Hedge fund managers. Most are older men. I haven't seen any foreign oligarchy although perhaps I just missed them. I suspect though if they go to an English tailor they would never go off the Row and would want a big name like Huntsman (despite what I said about them being an overpriced name in another post).

Looking at whats happening iI cant see a lot of these latter pure tailors being around in 20 years time. The trainees seem to come and go and not last and on the other hand there aren't a lot of younger clients under 40 coming in through the door.
 

Dropbear

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A476629D-86D9-463E-B2CD-6A2BDA7F0B8E.jpeg
Since the dude is normally in the Disagreeable thread, I’ll give him props for something better.
 

Johnny1

Active Member
Messages
25
It works as its simple core basics put together, navy jacket, blue shirt and cream trousers. Cant really go that wrong!

Half the problem with the 'Fuck Yeah Menswear' crowd is the need to veer away from conservatism and play around with barmy items none of which really flatter or work in harmony with one another. I get why they do it, clothing is a hobby for them, therefore they want to mess around with ideas, experiment and get noticed (usually by one another).

The supposed resurgence in classic menswear is really this new youngish crowd who are merely playing with classic menswear. Its a trend, like 00s rock chic, or 90s prep or a host of other subcultures. I think it will dissipate as this crowd move onto the next thing, or else to nothingness by which I mean that bland neutral no theme of clothing you see all over the high street today. This would be good as some of the inflated prices for menswear might get the edge taken off them, but may also cause a host of manufacturers and tailors to go out of business. As for bespoke tailoring I don't think in 20 years there will be many good tailors left anyway. There just isn't the quality of trainee in the industry to take over the baton. I plan to enjoy the next 20 years of dressing in classic menswear then will probably just chuck it in once my suits dont fit anymore)
 
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doghouse

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I think some have and some haven't in the West End (I use this term rather than SR as there are tailors dotted about nearby not on the Row). Huntsman, Anderson and Sheppard, Kilogour have definitely moved in that direction. Richard James, Oswald Boateng and Gieves and Hawkes have pushed into the mass market (appealing to young affluent professional types).

There are ones who are still tailors, places like Dege and Skinner, Meyer and Mortimer (who have great suits on display in the window although I haven't tried them) and Kent and Haste (whom Ive used for several years now). However they are all expensive and prices are well out of step with what a regular guy can and would spend on a jacket or suit. From sitting around in the waiting area in K&H Ive got a sample of the type of customers they have, seems like its mostly a mix of corporate bosses, legal big wigs, medical consultants and Hedge fund managers. Most are older men. I haven't seen any foreign oligarchy although perhaps I just missed them. I suspect though if they go to an English tailor they would never go off the Row and would want a big name like Huntsman (despite what I said about them being an overpriced name in another post).

Looking at whats happening iI cant see a lot of these latter pure tailors being around in 20 years time. The trainees seem to come and go and not last and on the other hand there aren't a lot of younger clients under 40 coming in through the door.
There is a yawning gap between what Huntsman, Kilgour and Gieves are doing compared to Poole, Dege and C&M are doing.

I've never seen an oligarch in Poole. The biggest change is they have a bigger Asian clientele these days, though I think America is still the biggest market.
 

Kingstonian

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1,275
QUOTE "Out of the price you pay for a bespoke suit, how much goes into paying inflated London rents (i.e. into the pockets of the Duke of Westminster, as far as Savile Row is concerned)? How much to the suppliers (the price of wool has gone up, but not tenfold)? How much to the apprentices doing the actualy sewing (very little)? How much to the cutters (and is it justified?) And how much to the owners, whether it be some Chinese/Hong Kong conglomerate, Gulf financiers, or celebrity tailors?" QUOTE

London rents in the W End are outrageous. On that basis alone if you remove the outliers of expensive SR houses like Huntsman, C&M and a couple of others they aren't that expensive compared to the Italian tailors who charge about £3k or so to make a suit in a far cheaper City (Florence or Naples) usually with illegal Romanian or Mainland Chinese workers!

It would be nice if there was a choice between SR tailors who charged less and worked from home or a little workroom outside of the West End of London and those that want to charge what they currently do and operate from expensive showrooms near Savile Row. However, there just doesn't seem to be much real choice out there. With the English tailors I think they have to get a prestige address or their snobbish clients don't think they are worthy of patronising. Then they have to pay through the nose to get a suit made!

The tailors outside of the West End are often cheaper, but from the few examples of tailoring Ive seen from them its not great in style or quality of make. I went to have a look at a Cypriot tailor called C Antoniou on Grays Inn Road which is near Kings Cross and Chancery Lane for instance. The jackets were in style like modern RTW, perhaps its possible to ask for something different, though personally I wouldn't take a chance. The internal canvass in the chest was hand padded, but with huge stitches probably a couple of inches long, I assume to save time. I believe a suit there is only £1.5k so for a junior at a law firm nearby perhaps its not a bad deal.
Near the excellent Calthorpe Arms. Looks a dusty little place - but still going. I remember that pretentious chap Bown, who used offer reviews for free suits, went to a Cypriot tailor called George somewhere near the BT tower. The tailor has since retired but his prices were affordable though he operated out of a basement at odds with Bowns highfalutin demeanour.
http://www.bownsbespoke.com/george.htm
 
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doghouse

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Near the excellent Calthorpe Arms. Looks a dusty little place - but still going. I remember that pretentious chap Bown, who used offer reviews for free suits, went to a Cypriot tailor called George somewhere near the BT tower. The tailor has since retired but his prices were affordable though he operated out of a basement at odds with Bowns highfalutin demeanour.
http://www.bownsbespoke.com/george.htm
The world needs more Francis Bown. That guy was hilarious.

Does anyone know how Dimi Major's kids are getting with their business in Fulham? I haven't heard anything about them in ages.
 

The Shooman

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Half the problem with the 'Fuck Yeah Menswear' crowd is the need to veer away from conservatism and play around with barmy items none of which really flatter or work in harmony with one another. I get why they do it, clothing is a hobby for them, therefore they want to mess around with ideas, experiment and get noticed (usually by one another).

The supposed resurgence in classic menswear is really this new youngish crowd who are merely playing with classic menswear.
You completely nailed it!


Johnny1 said:
Its a trend, like 00s rock chic, or 90s prep or a host of other subcultures.
Yes, it gives that impression. People have played around with the original styles and changed them into a lesser style than the original. It is kind of a new age classic style which looks affected on people.


Johnny1 said:
I think it will dissipate as this crowd move onto the next thing, or else to nothingness by which I mean that bland neutral no theme of clothing you see all over the high street today.
That's another really interesting point. I do think most of these men are just experimenting and playing dress ups as a current hobby, and as time goes they will want to blend back into the crowd and tone it down. Men like to follow trends and the crowd, and you don't see too many who really love clothes and want to do their own thing.

The same goes with shoes....so many men are a johnny-come-lately to shoes, they are not the real deal. A real shoomen is born to love shoes, he is not made on the internet. A real shooman sees great shoes as a kid and he converted for the rest of his life and he'll never give it up. A real shooman is very rare, you rarely see a true shoe lover on the street, men are usually more concerned about what's above the ankle while they neglect the shoes.



Johnny1 said:
This would be good as some of the inflated prices for menswear might get the edge taken off them, but may also cause a host of manufacturers and tailors to go out of business.
These igents have definitely given rise to a great inflow of tailors and new clothing shops and a decline in prices, certainly in Oz it has. 20 years ago prices were sky high and good shoes almost non existent over here. Even finding a goodyear welted shoe was difficult because only a few places sold them.
 
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Pauly Chase

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This one of his isn't too bad. I don't agree with the color of the cardigan, but overall not clashing.

Screenshot_20190101-132247.jpg
 

Pimpernel Smith

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3,218
I was at the North Sea Jazz Festival the last time that James Brown was there before he died, 2004 or some year there abouts. Sadly, the festival had well outgrown the venue by that time and you couldn't move or get in to see any of the performances, so we ended up back at my mate's house in Statenkwartier where I tried to give my mucca an education in the music of Miles Davis. He wasn't impressed and the coke was soon out. I remember there was some American dude in the tram talking about how Chet Baker use to rip off everyone off by not paying the band musicians. Now the festival is to south of the badlands of Rotterdam and the journey alone is enough to put you off.
 

yeahokaywhatever

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Looking at whats happening iI cant see a lot of these latter pure tailors being around in 20 years time. The trainees seem to come and go and not last and on the other hand there aren't a lot of younger clients under 40 coming in through the door.
No hope for us young bloods

We are doomed
 
R

Rushmore

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4 different people, different context.

The fat one who is he?

The 3rd and 4th are in Cordings.


English country style isn't just landed gentry hanging around in their stately pads in Viyella and tweeds as they can no longer afford to keep the place heated. You also have the farmer off to the cattle market look and lots of looks inbetween. Whilst the aristos sport it rather well, too much country in the UK stands out like a sore thumb and has to be handled well with a panache and nonchalance.

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Johnny1

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Eh, from what I hear on the Row there's been a pretty strong influx of apprentices in the past decade. I think that the sector is pretty stable, if nothing else.
Whats happening is these apprentices come to a tailoring house, then realise its hard work for little pay, then leave. Most of them seem to be from London School of Fashion. I've come across two young apprentices who have both set up on their own after leaving part way through an apprenticeship at prestigious Savile Row houses. Both are charging around £3500 for a suit which seems optimistic with their background.

That great tailor who can make you look better through their cutting is a rare breed and I think in a decade or so will be extinct. Most of these suits I see on instagram worn by various iGents are just terrible and I cant help but think they'd be better off just going to the high street and picking up a pair of jeans with a shirt and sweater.
 
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Untermensch

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That great tailor who can make you look better through their cutting is a rare breed and I think in a decade or so will be extinct.
Just like architects who can design beautiful buildings then, or writers who can write beautiful text. Never mind post-truth, we live in a post-beauty society.
 

doghouse

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That great tailor who can make you look better through their cutting is a rare breed
That's always been the case. People have some misguided notion that 80 years ago there were all these greats tailors. In fact, that vast majority sucked, just as today.
 

Scherensammler

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That's always been the case. People have some misguided notion that 80 years ago there were all these greats tailors. In fact, that vast majority sucked, just as today.
Technically, at least in numbers you had more "great tailors" back in the olden days than you have today.
They did have it a bit easier, though. Heavier, softer woven cloths and materials for the internals are more forgiving than modern 7oz. Super 1xx's and those lightweight canvasses. In the olden days you could "fix" things by just using a wet linen cloth and a 16+ pound tailor's iron.
 

doghouse

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Technically, at least in numbers you had more "great tailors" back in the olden days than you have today.
They did have it a bit easier, though. Heavier, softer woven cloths and materials for the internals are more forgiving than modern 7oz. Super 1xx's and those lightweight canvasses. In the olden days you could "fix" things by just using a wet linen cloth and a 16+ pound tailor's iron.
Your use of quotes is apt.
 

Kingstonian

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That's always been the case. People have some misguided notion that 80 years ago there were all these greats tailors. In fact, that vast majority sucked, just as today.
Well there were certainly more of them at it.

I also think that the average person had a better idea of what a good suit looked like. So those to whom it mattered were less likely to put up with rubbish. Even the fifty shilling tailor could knock out a decent suit in a huge choice of fabrics.
 
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