Agreeable Menswear Post Of The Day

doghouse

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I also think that the average person had a better idea of what a good suit looked like.
This is another total fabrication. Most people were slobs. Just because they had a tailored garment on didn't change that fact.

Look how awful most of these suits are, and these are the more respectable segment of society. The average guy was even worse.

 

Scherensammler

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Your use of quotes is apt.
Well there were certainly more of them at it.

I also think that the average person had a better idea of what a good suit looked like. So those to whom it mattered were less likely to put up with rubbish. Even the fifty shilling tailor could knock out a decent suit in a huge choice of fabrics.
There were most likely more decent tailors around, average but good enough to produce a wearable suit.
Also need to keep in mind that back in the days cloth was the main factor when it came to the price of a suit as labour costs were low.
From what I hear from my boss (who is well connected) the biggest problem these days is quality management to have a good consistency regarding output and quality.
As it stands, even with a good cutter, there is a good chance that the tailor can either do a great job or a lousy one. Regardless of the price point (many self employed tailors work for several firms, for example).
 

doghouse

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From what I hear from my boss (who is well connected) the biggest problem these days is quality management to have a good consistency regarding output and quality.
This is pretty much what I hear as well. There is a wild west feeling of outsourcing different operations.

One thing I quite like about Poole is they keep their tailors in the basement and I actually know who is stitching my stuff.
 

aristoi bcn

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doghouse, there is any change you post some good pictures of your Pooles? I mean, there are not many good pictures of current Poole work out there and I love the pieces you have shown so far.
 

doghouse

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doghouse, there is any change you post some good pictures of your Pooles? I mean, there are not many good pictures of current Poole work out there and I love the pieces you have shown so far.
I'll have two new ones in my grubby hands tomorrow. Will post forthwith.
 

Kingstonian

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This is another total fabrication. Most people were slobs. Just because they had a tailored garment on didn't change that fact.

Look how awful most of these suits are, and these are the more respectable segment of society. The average guy was even worse.

Needs modern equivalent for comparison.
 

Kingstonian

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This is another total fabrication. Most people were slobs. Just because they had a tailored garment on didn't change that fact.
It is rather an issue of a more conventional dress code. There were not the choices (or the fashion tribes of today).

You were suited and booted in a certain way. Of course, many were not interested in clothes or could not afford them. However - for those that were interested - it was easier. Even I can remember the days when manual workers wore Sunday best or put on a collar and tie to go out for a night.

Made to measure garments, cut in bulk at Hudson Road Mills, could still mean a reasonable looking suit as opposed to an expensive designer suit with the label still left on the sleeve. Go further and get a suit made by a reasonable local tailor and you would still look better than Crompton.
 

Untermensch

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It is rather an issue of a more conventional dress code. There were not the choices (or the fashion tribes of today).

You were suited and booted in a certain way. Of course, many were not interested in clothes or could not afford them. However - for those that were interested - it was easier. Even I can remember the days when manual workers wore Sunday best or put on a collar and tie to go out for a night.

Made to measure garments, cut in bulk at Hudson Road Mills, could still mean a reasonable looking suit as opposed to an expensive designer suit with the label still left on the sleeve. Go further and get a suit made by a reasonable local tailor and you would still look better than Crompton.

Being, er, of the Untermensch class, perhaps I can provide some insight. I've seen some of my grandfather's suits (all two of them), made by a cheap tailor (he wasn't a rich man) in the back of beyond. The workmanship is far from perfect - ugly stitching, some irregular etc. But what's really remarkable is how there is no skimping on the cutting. None of that modern industrial-style flat pattern stuff. The waistcoat is cut with a curved dart so it follows the belly, and is fully lined (with cotton, back and front). The coat has all the bells and whistles and is fully canvassed. The trousers have pleats etc. The fabric is boring, and black - Crompers would have a fit - but nice and heavy (I reckon at least a 13-ounce) so it drapes well.

I'd say those thousands of local tailors certainly knew their craft, even when they didn't execute it perfectly. Remember it was often just one man doing all the work: measuring, cutting, sewing. The more business-forward ones would have had an apprentice.

And although the suits were imperfectly stitched and cut, and had no "design" qualities, the men wore them well. There is something about manual labour which makes a man stand and move better. None of that iGentry flexed hip posing.

Kingstonian is right on the Sunday best bit. Only it was by accident, not design. My grandfather's generation dressed well because they hadb't discovered T-shirts and shorts and "sneakers" and jeans all that American stuff which was lapped up by the younger generations post-1960.

When some iGents dress all slouchy-prep and claim to be doing "vintage", they should be shot. Vintage where? Vintage what? Slouchiness is a recent import from America. Sprezza-bollocks is even more recent, and is a complete fabrication.

Again, I quote our Kingstonian. Manual workers would literally scrub up well. A night out was an escape from the t'pit or the field, and they did their best to look squared away. Ditto for Sunday church service or mass (which of course is completely alien to the atheist iGents). You would have a wash and shave, polish your boots, put Brylcreem in your hair and comb it, and dress up. Zero sprezzatura.
 

Kingstonian

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Sunday best became work clothes after they were a bit threadbare. I remember contemporaries questioning the notion of navvies wearing suits.

There was not really a practice of paying good money for work clothes. Factory workers might get free overalls; farmers and construction workers did not. I remember working on sites and only putting a hard hat on when it rained. Steel toecaps not worn either as all my stuff was my own. That said, builders did not go into pubs in site clothes and expect to be served.
 

Untermensch

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Yes. And working-class men would only have one walking-out suit. Two at most. The Cromptonian idea of building a wardrobe, even 'capsule', was unheard of.

This iGent idea of the 1930s-1950s as some golden age of tailoring is as offensive as racism and homophobia. It assumes the masses had the means and lifestyle of the rich elite. Golden age, sure, for those that could afford it, and those that could gain access to places where you would wear dinner suits and white tie and so on.

For millions of men in 1945, a demob suit was luxury.
 

formby

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Some people are just easier to fit than others. Some men can look great in good quality RTW. I've seen men, who are out of shape look lousy in expensive bespoke.

A tailor can only fit you, if you want transformation, join a gym and get in shape.
 

formby

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Sunday best became work clothes after they were a bit threadbare. I remember contemporaries questioning the notion of navvies wearing suits.

There was not really a practice of paying good money for work clothes. Factory workers might get free overalls; farmers and construction workers did not. I remember working on sites and only putting a hard hat on when it rained. Steel toecaps not worn either as all my stuff was my own. That said, builders did not go into pubs in site clothes and expect to be served.
If you look at very old photos you will see brickies wearing bowler hats. As for pubs, in my experience builders could be allowed in the tap room in workwear, but not the lounge.
 

doghouse

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You were suited and booted in a certain way. Of course, many were not interested in clothes or could not afford them. However - for those that were interested - it was easier. Even I can remember the days when manual workers wore Sunday best or put on a collar and tie to go out for a night.

.
Kingstonian is right on the Sunday best bit. Only it was by accident, not design. My grandfather's generation dressed well because they hadb't discovered T-shirts and shorts and "sneakers" and jeans all that American stuff which was lapped up by the younger generations post-1960.
Well, this is exactly what happened. The average guy wearing a suit is now wearing a polo shirt. That encompasses about 80% of the population at a minimum. But we were talking about "great" tailoring going extinct, and this stuff is neither here nor there regarding top shelf tailoring. The guys in the photo I posted above in crap suits are now wearing khakis. If you want to talk about the fact they are in suits, then yeah, it's a totally different day these days, but that is another conversation entirely.

And I don't know what Crompers has to do with it unless you want to have a who's the biggest idiot competition.
 

Kingstonian

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Well, this is exactly what happened. The average guy wearing a suit is now wearing a polo shirt. That encompasses about 80% of the population at a minimum. But we were talking about "great" tailoring going extinct, and this stuff is neither here nor there regarding top shelf tailoring. The guys in the photo I posted above in crap suits are now wearing khakis. If you want to talk about the fact they are in suits, then yeah, it's a totally different day these days, but that is another conversation entirely.

And I don't know what Crompers has to do with it unless you want to have a who's the biggest idiot competition.
Well we are talking at cross purposes in that case.

I am talking about the average person looking good in a suit - not the skills of Savile Row and other high end tailoring establishments over the years.

I still take issue with your idea that most people were “slobs” though. They had a very specific idea of what ‘well dressed’ meant and those that were interested tried to emulate it. I believe they were better at doing so than many of their modern counterparts.
 

Kingstonian

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Crompton is there because he strives for a notion of being well dressed via patronage of various ‘upscale’ tailors. His comments section suggests that some people take notice, though I do accept that it is entirely possible that he composes many of those comments himself.

I dont think he looks particularly well dressed, whereas I can remember lots of people in my youth that managed to do so, albeit with a more limited wardrobe and without recourse to Savile Row or visits to famous Italian tailors.
 

doghouse

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Well we are talking at cross purposes in that case.

I am talking about the average person looking good in a suit - not the skills of Savile Row and other high end tailoring establishments over the years.

I still take issue with your idea that most people were “slobs” though. They had a very specific idea of what ‘well dressed’ meant and those that were interested tried to emulate it. I believe they were better at doing so than many of their modern counterparts.
Well, that's a more a matter of taste really. I mean, we are on a menswear forum, so obviously we are more in agreement than opposition on the best aesthetic.

But not everyone was good, certainly not the majority by a long shot. Just putting on a suit doesn't mean you looked good, and most didn't look good. Like Untermensch notes, there's been a complete fetisization of the olden days that distorts the reality. There are plenty of people that put on various designer RTW clobber these days that are objectively better put together than some random guy in a suit from 50 years ago, whether you or I like the look or not. Really, the percentages of people who cared and excelled at turning out well have been very solid over the last 150 years or so.

Crompton is there because he strives for a notion of being well dressed via patronage of various ‘upscale’ tailors. His comments section suggests that some people take notice, though I do accept that it is entirely possible that he composes many of those comments himself.

I dont think he looks particularly well dressed, whereas I can remember lots of people in my youth that managed to do so, albeit with a more limited wardrobe and without recourse to Savile Row or visits to famous Italian tailors.
Yeah, I quite agree, but, as I said, that's a low bar to get over.
 

Untermensch

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We could debate this for ages, and it's not an untinteresting debate. But in the interest of clarity, let's stick to some facts that we can all verify. The suits we're talking about (i.e. for the populace aka the masses aka the working class), in the past, were not tailored like they are today. They were cut like sacks. I've seen plenty of old suits, and from the shoulders downwards they just just hang like a curtains. Same goes for trousers. Not a single cavalry hem either.

When my ancestors (and possibly Kingstonian's too?) went to their local tailor (who was regarded by everyone, and who regarded himself, as a craftsman and not a designer, and earned nowt) to get a suit made, the tailor would make sure the jacket fit the shoulders and sleeve length (more or less), the trousers fit the inside leg (more or less), and that was it.

Did Kingstonian The Elder look good in his suit?

Let us rephrase that. Could he carry himself well in his suit?

You betcher. If he was Upper Middle, he was socially superior, so he could. If he was Working Class, he did a man's job, and so he walked, talked and occasionally slouched like a man.

Would you wear those suits today? No. They'd need to be heavily altered: jackets taken in at the waist, trouser legs tapered and so on.

Same goes for shirts. They were cut like nightshirts.

So were people better-dressed in those days? Insofar as they lived within their means and knew their place, and lived and married within their class, yes.
 

doghouse

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We could debate this for ages, and it's not an untinteresting debate. But in the interest of clarity, let's stick to some facts that we can all verify. The suits we're talking about (i.e. for the populace aka the masses aka the working class), in the past, were not tailored like they are today. They were cut like sacks. I've seen plenty of old suits, and from the shoulders downwards they just just hang like a curtains. Same goes for trousers. Not a single cavalry hem either.

When my ancestors (and possibly Kingstonian's too?) went to their local tailor (who was regarded by everyone, and who regarded himself, as a craftsman and not a designer, and earned nowt) to get a suit made, the tailor would make sure the jacket fit the shoulders and sleeve length (more or less), the trousers fit the inside leg (more or less), and that was it.

Did Kingstonian The Elder look good in his suit?

Let us rephrase that. Could he carry himself well in his suit?

You betcher. If he was Upper Middle, he was socially superior, so he could. If he was Working Class, he did a man's job, and so he walked, talked and occasionally slouched like a man.

Would you wear those suits today? No. They'd need to be heavily altered: jackets taken in at the waist, trouser legs tapered and so on.

Same goes for shirts. They were cut like nightshirts.

So were people better-dressed in those days? Insofar as they lived within their means and knew their place, and lived and married within their class, yes.
This probably would make for a good separate thread.

And I think all you have written is accurate.
 

aristoi bcn

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I do thing tailors were in the past designers as they were craftmen. My father told me about a grandpas friend who was the leader of a troupe of tailors in the '40 in rural Spain. He would travel around the region visiting all but the biggest towns, staying for a week in each place, measuring all men in town and having made all suits in one go. I bet that system had been the same for centuries until the mass market appeared.

Later the man became a reputable tailor in Barcelona and I've seen some pieces made by him for my grandpa: sack suits made in the '70. Amazing buttonholes (even milanese in the lapel) but pockets and other visible stitching made by machine. Of course full canvassed.
 

Scherensammler

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What I've learned from vintage tailoring magazines is that in the olden days cutters, after working as a coat/ trouser maker for a while, would go to a cutting school (Tailor and Cutter in the UK, Müller & Sohn in Germany, probably similar in other European countries) to learn pattern drafting and fitting skills.
So in theory they more or less had the same basic knowledge after completing the course. Since bespoke tailoring is in decline those schools have disappeared, at least in the UK, although from personal experience I'd say that what is left of Müller & Sohn is not even a shadow of its former glory.
This is a map from 1938 and those black marks do not represent a single tailor, but a tailors guild, so anything from 5 to hundreds of members:



Needless to say that you'd struggle to find a fraction of those guilds today.
German bespoke tailors association had a group of top bespoke tailors to decide on the silhouette for the upcoming season (usually just some smaller tweaks of the existing lines) based on actual fashion trends.
Not to mention constant competitions on local and national level (quite common in other countries, too).
This lasted well into the 70's, but with the rise of RTW and MTM (and the older tailors dieing) it eventually went the way of the Dodo.
Tailors were split into 2 general groups: City tailors and the rest. While the first group would be the one following the fashion trends and more expensive overall, the rural tailors would make for less demanding customers, often at a much lower price point and with some shortcuts in the make.
A few tailoring houses in larger cities had a large number of tailors in-house, while many others were much smaller, often just a one-man band or perhaps with one or two apprentices at different stages.
The better tailoring houses usually attracted better tailors, often from other countries like Italy, Greece and even Hungary, so there was definitely an exchange of skill and knowledge in those days and overall standards were pretty high, even among rural tailors.
Today there are only very few, mostly small bespoke tailor firms left in Germany. Volkmar Arnulf in Berlin is probably the last of the big names along with Dietl in Munich.

This is one of the more fashion oriented bespoke outfits from the 70's:



Or for the fans of the more classical version:

 

doghouse

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What I've learned from vintage tailoring magazines is that in the olden days cutters, after working as a coat/ trouser maker for a while, would go to a cutting school (Tailor and Cutter in the UK, Müller & Sohn in Germany, probably similar in other European countries) to learn pattern drafting and fitting skills.
So in theory they more or less had the same basic knowledge after completing the course. Since bespoke tailoring is in decline those schools have disappeared, at least in the UK, although from personal experience I'd say that what is left of Müller & Sohn is not even a shadow of its former glory.
This is a map from 1938 and those black marks do not represent a single tailor, but a tailors guild, so anything from 5 to hundreds of members:



Needless to say that you'd struggle to find a fraction of those guilds today.
German bespoke tailors association had a group of top bespoke tailors to decide on the silhouette for the upcoming season (usually just some smaller tweaks of the existing lines) based on actual fashion trends.
Not to mention constant competitions on local and national level (quite common in other countries, too).
This lasted well into the 70's, but with the rise of RTW and MTM (and the older tailors dieing) it eventually went the way of the Dodo.
Tailors were split into 2 general groups: City tailors and the rest. While the first group would be the one following the fashion trends and more expensive overall, the rural tailors would make for less demanding customers, often at a much lower price point and with some shortcuts in the make.
A few tailoring houses in larger cities had a large number of tailors in-house, while many others were much smaller, often just a one-man band or perhaps with one or two apprentices at different stages.
The better tailoring houses usually attracted better tailors, often from other countries like Italy, Greece and even Hungary, so there was definitely an exchange of skill and knowledge in those days and overall standards were pretty high, even among rural tailors.
Today there are only very few, mostly small bespoke tailor firms left in Germany. Volkmar Arnulf in Berlin is probably the last of the big names along with Dietl in Munich.

This is one of the more fashion oriented bespoke outfits from the 70's:



Or for the fans of the more classical version:

You need to post more of this stuff mate.
 

Scherensammler

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Radermacher still around as well.
Losberg as well. I think all the other big names are either retired or passed away.
Honestly can't think of any bespoke tailor in the larger cities these days. Only found this (not exactly a long list):

Und das sind die besten Taditionalisten:

Werner Losberg: Sittarder Straße 42, 52525 Heinsberg .

Kleegräfe & Strothmann: Haller Strasse 117, 33334 Gütersloh/Isselhorst.

Heinz-Josef Radermacher: Schadowplatz 11, 40212 Düsseldorf.

Volkmar Arnulf: Gutenbergstraße 108, 14467 Potsdam.

Heinz Reeker: Neustraße 28a, 47441 Moers.

Und hier die besten Nachwuchsschneider:

Der schöne Herr (Eva Schönherr): Ellerstraße 13, 36043 Fulda.

Sebastian Hoofs: Pützlachstraße 14, 51061 Köln.

Alexander Amann: Reichenberger Strasse 117, 10999 Berlin.

Andreas Hildebrand: Schützenstraße 12, 70182 Stuttgart.

Andreas Moller: Ringstraße 17a, 92637 Weiden.
 

doghouse

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I'll be in Munich in April, will see what the story is with Dietl
 

Rambo

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What I've learned from vintage tailoring magazines is that in the olden days cutters, after working as a coat/ trouser maker for a while, would go to a cutting school (Tailor and Cutter in the UK, Müller & Sohn in Germany, probably similar in other European countries) to learn pattern drafting and fitting skills.
So in theory they more or less had the same basic knowledge after completing the course. Since bespoke tailoring is in decline those schools have disappeared, at least in the UK, although from personal experience I'd say that what is left of Müller & Sohn is not even a shadow of its former glory.
This is a map from 1938 and those black marks do not represent a single tailor, but a tailors guild, so anything from 5 to hundreds of members:



Needless to say that you'd struggle to find a fraction of those guilds today.
German bespoke tailors association had a group of top bespoke tailors to decide on the silhouette for the upcoming season (usually just some smaller tweaks of the existing lines) based on actual fashion trends.
Not to mention constant competitions on local and national level (quite common in other countries, too).
This lasted well into the 70's, but with the rise of RTW and MTM (and the older tailors dieing) it eventually went the way of the Dodo.
Tailors were split into 2 general groups: City tailors and the rest. While the first group would be the one following the fashion trends and more expensive overall, the rural tailors would make for less demanding customers, often at a much lower price point and with some shortcuts in the make.
A few tailoring houses in larger cities had a large number of tailors in-house, while many others were much smaller, often just a one-man band or perhaps with one or two apprentices at different stages.
The better tailoring houses usually attracted better tailors, often from other countries like Italy, Greece and even Hungary, so there was definitely an exchange of skill and knowledge in those days and overall standards were pretty high, even among rural tailors.
Today there are only very few, mostly small bespoke tailor firms left in Germany. Volkmar Arnulf in Berlin is probably the last of the big names along with Dietl in Munich.

This is one of the more fashion oriented bespoke outfits from the 70's:



Or for the fans of the more classical version:

more of this please. less shirtless pigeon man.
 

aristoi bcn

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I've visited both Arnulf and Amann in Potsdam and Berlin. Arnulf showed me the workrooms on Sunday afternoon when he saw me taking a picture of his door. A charming man I have to say, and his work looked fabulous.
 

Lumpen

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El exceso de grasa corporal alrededor de la cintura ha sido relacionado con un tamaño más pequeño de cerebro.
 

Lumpen

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Modclothin
PuPbliPciPdadP
PP

·
NEW & ONLINE The "Cooper" £229.Crafted from a truly stunning cloth this double-breasted suit is made from a 100% lightweight wool & hangs beautifully. The "Cooper" would make an excellent addition to any wardrobe.
 

Lumpen

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Rambo

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jajajajaa



✨ I’m really happy to show you the brand new @cifonelli_official bespoke creation ! Stay tuned for more informations very soon ! ✨
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is that a cargo pants pocket on the outside of the left leg there?
 
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