rdiaz

Well-Known Member
Messages
942
Ratings
1,353
It's just based on hate. Independentist Catalans hate Spain and that's why they want to leave. Nothing to do with history, economics, etc.
 

Fwiffo

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Messages
6,839
Ratings
1,969
Catalonia independence: Huge pro-Spain rally in Barcelona

"Many of those protesting in the region's largest city chanted that sacked Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont should be jailed. Mr Puigdemont was dismissed as Spain's central government took control of Catalan institutions. On Sunday, a minister in Belgium said he could get political asylum there."

Is it really political asylum when you go from one EU territory to another? I assumed Catalonia and Belgium are in the same Schengen area. Isn't this just hiding out until the anger dies down?
 

Pimpernel Smith

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,716
Ratings
1,768
I like this thread's tags.
You have nothing to fear, the crisis is over. Now you can go after the trouble makers and their leader will get to sit on reconciliation committee in Brussels. It was always going to be so: you can't pretend you want freedom whilst your whole mission is to stay within the confines of the EU.

The Catalans ultimately had very little vision other than giving the finger to Spain and Madrid.

Strange cats.
 

formby

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,411
Ratings
1,290
As it intensifies, the Catalan crisis will have wider ramifications for EU politics. One crucial element revolves around the state of European democracy.

By Richard Youngs

Source: http://carnegieeurope.eu


Appeals to democracy have been used and misused by both sides in the dispute over Catalonia’s referendum. For many (but not everyone) in Catalonia, the vote represents a heartening example of popular democracy against an intransigent and high-handed state. In Madrid and other EU capitals, the threat of Catalonia unilaterally declaring independence is an affront to the union’s basic democratic laws.

This division captures an emerging tension across Europe between different understandings of democracy. One concept stresses the rule of law; the other emphasizes the importance of active citizen participation. Both are necessary for good quality democracy, but at times there can be tension between the two. Many of the EU’s problems today stem from exactly this tension. In this sense, events in Catalonia are the result not only of the complexity of internal Spanish politics, but also reflect a more structural problem with the way that European democracy is evolving.

The EU clearly prioritizes the rule of law over participative democracy. The union ostensibly aspires to transcend traditional concepts of national sovereignty, yet it is a club of national governments. This helps account for the EU’s tepid response to the brutality of the Spanish police during the events of October 1. In pointing to the unconstitutional nature of the Catalan referendum, the Spanish and other EU governments have legality on their side. But just when leaders are searching for ways of relegitimizing the EU in the eyes of its jaded citizens, the EU’s apparent ambivalence over the violence can only add to popular disappointment with the union.

Rule of law is not simply about obeying rules. The democratic rule of law is also a matter of how rules are made, how judiciaries are held accountable, and how norms and values gain legitimacy. During the last decade of crisis, the EU and national leaders have tended too far toward a minimalistic definition of the rule of law: rules are sacrosanct and must be obeyed.

For example, think of how economic rules were enforced in relation to Greece and other debtor states expressly against the dynamics of democratic accountability. Indeed, Spain’s potential fragmentation is, at least in part, the legacy of how the eurozone crisis was mismanaged—to the extent that disputes over austerity added fuel to the secessionist fire. Ironically, as EU leaders now meet and declare that crisis over, one key member state is struggling to hold itself together at least in some measure due to the tensions unleashed by it.

If citizens do not have the ability to influence rules and ensure their fair and equal application, there cannot be a fully democratic notion of “rule of law”—the risk is that the latter is no longer legality in the service of democratic rule, but rather cloak for a narrowed understanding of political legitimacy.

On such questions, member states can be shockingly hypocritical. The Spanish government now calls for a strict application of the rule of law. Yet in recent years it has itself been criticized by the Council of Europe for undermining the rule of law through its political control over the judiciary. Madrid called for flexibility in EU rules when it wanted to overrun its deficit, but now insists there can be no flexibility in the application of formal rules when it comes to its own aims to prevent Catalan independence.

It is important not to idealize the Catalan vote. This was not a purely instinctive, bottom-up exercise in people-led democracy. Abrogating parliamentary process, the referendum was stirred up by local leaders—by a part of the political class in Catalonia that has been as feckless, corrupt, and intolerant as its counterpart in Madrid. Yet, there is also an element of community-centered mobilization that has made Barcelona a vibrant hub of democratic innovation in recent years. The warm cooperation and experience-sharing between local democracy innovators in Madrid and Barcelona—with both cities admirably in the lead of a global redesign in community-level participation—stands in stark contrast to the vitriolic insults thrown by both sets of “national” politicians.

Crucially, this is part of a wider trend that is also happening in other EU countries. The desire of citizens to bring democratic accountability back down to local or community level is routinely belittled. Analysts commonly hold it to be synonymous with nationalism, nativism, or populism. But this is a dangerous simplification that misses the many benign elements of such burgeoning local politics.

The point is that the EU does not have a balanced approach to these different elements of democracy, underplaying the importance of local participation. Benign democratic process unequivocally requires a rule of law, but other elements are of equal importance.

This represents a policy challenge in Spain and other EU states. While echoing the Spanish government’s appeal to the rule of law, the Commission has taken a long time to even move into first gear in defending the same principles where these are threatened by governments in Poland and Hungary. Moreover, in these countries many citizens complain that the EU often rides roughshod over local views and concerns. In such instances, rule of law without its democratic handmaiden is a recipe for further popular discontent.

As the current Catalan crisis stems from a failure of moderate political leadership in both Madrid and Barcelona, any outside involvement must proceed from a fully balanced understanding of democratic rights. Levels of mutual hostility between Catalonia and the rest of Spain are running high, and both sides react with aggressive vehemence against the opinion of foreigners that they believe to be too favorable to the other side.

The EU is now running to catch up with events. As in many other instances, in Catalonia the EU has been slow to react and failed to preempt a very predictable crisis. While European politicians are just now switching on to the Catalan issue, this is a crisis that has been brewing for at least two years; it was clear many, many months ago that the referendum would be a crunch point.

More or less everyone is now rightly calling for dialogue. But by this stage, the EU should be able to offer something more concrete than simply saying that it would be good for the two sides to talk. Substantive ideas are needed for what a solution might look like. Although the Partido Popular (PP) government is rejecting EU mediation, the union should be contributing ideas for innovative governance models. Talk of federalizing the 1978 constitution has been around for a long time; yet after the events of last weekend it may now be difficult to enthuse many Catalans with traditional formalized versions of federalism alone. Rather, fresh proposals may be needed around embryonic notions of democratically participative confederalism.

Madrid, backed by EU governments, will win on legality and if the crisis comes down to a strength of force. But each heavy-handed move the government has made against Catalonia since the referendum will surely sharpen the challenge of winning consent for a renewed and positive Spanish “state” project.

The essential point is that forms of new politics are needed for Catalonia but also more widely across the EU—not to subvert but to accompany and oxygenate the rule of law. If the EU doesn’t mold a more rounded and proactive position on Spain’s impasse, and more carefully define balanced rules for defending democracy within Europe, Catalonia will not be the last crisis that it passively watches spiral out of control.
 
Last edited:

prince nez

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Messages
2,723
Ratings
7,978
I’m surprised the Basque separatists have been so quiet while the Catalunatics have been self-destructing. Theoretically they disarmed but I’m sure there’s a few Pablos around with some left over ordnance somewhere in the hills. I would have thought it was the perfect opportunity to open up a war with Madrid on two fronts and possibly actually achieve what they’ve been fighting a lot longer and harder for than the Cataloonies.

Then again, maybe they were embarrassed that Barcelona had managed to actually declare independence and it pricked their pride - “if we couldn’t secede then damn those fishmongers!”
 

rdiaz

Well-Known Member
Messages
942
Ratings
1,353
You have nothing to fear, the crisis is over. Now you can go after the trouble makers and their leader will get to sit on reconciliation committee in Brussels. It was always going to be so: you can't pretend you want freedom whilst your whole mission is to stay within the confines of the EU.

The Catalans ultimately had very little vision other than giving the finger to Spain and Madrid.

Strange cats.
I wonder what the heck is on their minds. As I mentioned previously it seems to be nothing but hate, passed from generation to generation.
 

rdiaz

Well-Known Member
Messages
942
Ratings
1,353
He did not. But most of the Govern (including the vicepresident) did, and they're being sent to jail right now.

That's where they deserve to be, not because of their ideas, but because they've caused damage, and a lot of it.
 

Pimpernel Smith

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,716
Ratings
1,768
Off to jail they go...
Interesting the international arrest warrant is being filed and where is the president of Catalonia? In Brussels exactly where they can arrest him and send him back with ease. Likely it was a cunning plan from the beginning.

An idiotic adventure if ever there was one. The only chance they had was to break out of Spain and the EU. Keeping the EU sealed their fate, the EU wasn't going to turn on their own.
 

rdiaz

Well-Known Member
Messages
942
Ratings
1,353
It is of course planned, just so they will pretend being the victims of an oppresive State.

No, they're not being jailed because of their ideas.They would have been arrested much earlier if that was true and I can't believe people are idiotic enough not to notice it. They've used the Catalan people for their own purposes, confronted families and friends, and screwed up economy. Yet they're being hailed as heros by some. I just hope they enjoy many years in prison.
 

Lumpen

Well-Known Member
Messages
500
Ratings
1,230
They deserve death penalty! Period.

All leftist partys must be ilegaliced and the country must be taken by a general!

General Piñar is the ideal one, son of the great leader Blas Piñar.
 

Pimpernel Smith

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,716
Ratings
1,768
Now he's handed himself over the Belgium police. What a paper tiger: declare independence, do not seize control of the local police, infrastructure, media, or man the barricades....jump on the first plane out of there. It was always going to end with a stiff jail sentence this way.
 

Fwiffo

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Messages
6,839
Ratings
1,969
We may have broken the law...

"A former member of the sacked Catalan government has acknowledged it may have broken the law by going against the Spanish constitution during the region's independence drive in October."

Is this confession extracted under duress?
 

rdiaz

Well-Known Member
Messages
942
Ratings
1,353
Albiol has won the elections.

I am very proud.

Now the path is to execute all leftist and independentist.
Are you dreaming in loud voice?
Shameful results, I must say. I am hoping at least some sort of agreement is reached with CeC to make Iceta president, though very unlikely.

Edit: just looked at the results again and it's not unlikely, it's impossible. It's going to be fun to watch the incoming war between independentists.

At least it's been proved that while highly divided (which is worrying), according to the number of votes, a slight majority of Catalans do not want independence. It's mostly those in the rural areas that do.
 
Last edited:

robertito

Well-Known Member
Messages
871
Ratings
850
Puigdemont wants to negotiate with Rajoy in a "neutral land". There is no way that he is coming back to Spain as he knows he would go straight to jail.
He would have to give up (together with the other 7) and the next ones in the queue would take their position.
Anyhow very sad that they won. It shows that there is a clear division ide in Catalonia
 

Pimpernel Smith

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,716
Ratings
1,768
Puigdemont wants to negotiate with Rajoy in a "neutral land". There is no way that he is coming back to Spain as he knows he would go straight to jail.
He would have to give up (together with the other 7) and the next ones in the queue would take their position.
Anyhow very sad that they won. It shows that there is a clear division ide in Catalonia
They're already in the jail of Brussels.

They're going nowhere....come into the parlour said the spider.
 

robertito

Well-Known Member
Messages
871
Ratings
850
Casillas and David Silva are there. and the Queen too.
btw really going to an Atlantis? Did they give a bracelet when checking inn for the free meals? Learn from CesareRomiti and his glamour....
 

ConchitaWurst

Bespoke-Weather Forecaster
Messages
6,069
Ratings
16,936
Casillas and David Silva are there. and the Queen too.
btw really going to an Atlantis? Did they give a bracelet when checking inn for the free meals? Learn from CesareRomiti and his glamour....
they only serve paella which i can swallow without to much chewing

im unfortunately no longer allowed on the elite thai beaches that CesareRomiti frequents after i was caught with a couple of underaged ladyboys last year
 

fxh

OG Party Suit Wearer
Supporter
Messages
6,039
Ratings
5,847
Spanish light-rail contractor Acciona accuses Transport for NSW of misleading conduct

Light rail roadworks on the corner of George St and King St in February.
  • The Australian 2:03PM April 13, 2018
A Spanish firm involved in the Sydney Light Rail project has accused the NSW government of engaging in “misleading or deceptive conduct” by withholding documents that dramatically altered how it should manage more than 100 utility services in construction.

In a case brought against Transport for NSW that appeared in the NSW Supreme Court for the first time today, Acciona Infrastructure Australia has claimed it is owed $1.1 billion in “losses” incurred under the current Light Rail contract.

Court documents alleged the NSW government gave Acciona assurances a crucial document outlining construction costs, known as Schedule F8, had been reviewed by electrical infrastructure company Ausgrid and had details of how all utilities would need to be “treated” underground. Instead, Acciona said it was given the full details of the work required hours after signing documents agreeing to do the project.

“TfNSW engaged in conduct and made representations which led Acciona to believe that… Ausgrid had reviewed and had accepted the treatments of its utility services as set out in Schedule F8,” the company alleged in court documents.

“This conduct was misleading or deceptive. Ausgrid had not in fact accepted the treatments for it services set out in Schedule F8. Acciona only became aware that Ausgrid did not accept these treatments when Ausgrid provided guidelines setting out its actual requirements after the project documentation was executed and on the evening after financial close had occurred.”

The 44-page statement of claim, brought by Acciona’s legal team from Norton Rose Fulbright, contained details of their alleged $1.106 billion losses from the project.

The “costs incurred by Acciona in performing the D&C Contract to date” has been estimated at $1.07 billion, while the company estimates it will cost $679 million to complete the project “based on the current programme”.

Acciona insists it was unable to communicate with Ausgrid - it was “prevented” from communicating - throughout the tender process, and that Acciona and other members of the consortium that won the tender were “reliant upon TfNSW” to ensure utilities were explained. The actual utilities treatment necessary “diverged to a significant degree” from those which Acciona was given, the documents said.

“The final version of Schedule F8 did not reflect the discussions that TfNSW had had with Ausgrid,” the company alleged. “The TfNSW conduct was misleading or deceptive, or likely to mislead or deceive.”

The dispute threatens to put the completion date of the project into 2020 — well past the 2019 state election — or beyond, after the government originally nominated a 2018 completion date.

In the NSW Supreme Court this morning, Acciona was ordered to produce all documents referred to in its statement of claim by April 16, and Transport for NSW has been ordered to file a response by May 23. The matter will return to court on May 25.


Completed section of the light rail along George Street in the Sydney CBD.
 
Top Bottom