The All-Inclusive Shoe & Boot Thread

walker

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What a knockout collection...that Vass Budapester is the bomb
actually it is not a budapester, but meanwhile vass calls every wingtip/full brogue even oxfords budapaster, because people couldn't get behind the right terminology and the confusion e.g. in the vass thread on styfo was compareable to a bunch of chickens.

a genuine budapster has to be on the budapester-last, also called sharkmouth, due to the raised toe area.

literally, even andré kostolany, who was on of the first brand ambassadors for vass, gave up on teaching people of the correct terminology for his favorite footwear. according to mr. vass himself, kostolany had only a few budapesters as it wasn't the right fit for him. they created a bespoke last for him, which was a hybrid of the R and banana last. well, you can do this for a man of his blood.
 

Rambo

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actually it is not a budapester, but meanwhile vass calls every wingtip/full brogue even oxfords budapaster, because people couldn't get behind the right terminology and the confusion e.g. in the vass thread on styfo was compareable to a bunch of chickens.

a genuine budapster has to be on the budapester-last, also called sharkmouth, due to the raised toe area.

literally, even andré kostolany, who was on of the first brand ambassadors for vass, gave up on teaching people of the correct terminology for his favorite footwear. according to mr. vass himself, kostolany had only a few budapesters as it wasn't the right fit for him. they created a bespoke last for him, which was a hybrid of the R and banana last. well, you can do this for a man of his blood.
think you could show us some pictures of the difference? i thought it was a budapester as well.
 

shookt

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Now that
actually it is not a budapester, but meanwhile vass calls every wingtip/full brogue even oxfords budapaster, because people couldn't get behind the right terminology and the confusion e.g. in the vass thread on styfo was compareable to a bunch of chickens.

a genuine budapster has to be on the budapester-last, also called sharkmouth, due to the raised toe area.

literally, even andré kostolany, who was on of the first brand ambassadors for vass, gave up on teaching people of the correct terminology for his favorite footwear. according to mr. vass himself, kostolany had only a few budapesters as it wasn't the right fit for him. they created a bespoke last for him, which was a hybrid of the R and banana last. well, you can do this for a man of his blood.
Apologies, looking closer it looks like you're right. The toebox is high, but it looks like its not pointing out past the base like a shark's nose would. The angle of the photo makes it harder for me to tell since its head-on rather than showing the side-profile.
 

walker

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think you could show us some pictures of the difference? i thought it was a budapester as well.
sure, is google broken on your computer?

from the attila page: http://www.attilacipo.hu/en/cipomodellek.html

genuine budapester - as good as it gets

budapester.jpg


half brogue oxford on budapester last

budapester 1.jpg


ptb with goyser welt on budapester last

budapester 2.jpg


full brogue derby on round toe/almond shaped last e.g. like the one shooey has.

full brogue.jpg


The budapester above has a 360 degree goyser welt. imo, the 270 degree welt and without goyser welt belongs also to the budapester family, but I'm not totally sure about this fact.

Just for the records: the goyser welt has been invented in the rural town of Bad Goisern - hence the name - one hour away from my home. Initially it was used on working and hiking boots to make them waterproof. Later on, it found its way on the high streets of Vienna and Budapest as a decorative feature.

original pair of the famous goiserer boot with hob nails for better traction when hiking

goiserer.jpg
 

walker

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well, I never handled the english version of the vass book. probably the confusions comes from there? but when even kostolany struggled to push it through, who can ...?

Apologies, looking closer it looks like you're right. The toebox is high, but it looks like its not pointing out past the base like a shark's nose would. The angle of the photo makes it harder for me to tell since its head-on rather than showing the side-profile.
actually it is not only the raised toe, the budapester last is sleeker as a whole. the sleekness is a very distinctive feature of it.
 
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The Shooman

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Walker is correct in most of what he says, but he is wrong to say the shoes in that picture aren't budapesters. Actually l own two genuine budapesters with the high raised toe box that falls off like a cliff, and l also own 3 Vass on the excellent 3636 last. The medium brown shoe in the middle (link immediately below) IS the genuine budapester. I prefer to use the proper terminology when it comes to these things to avoid any confusion.
https://www.dressedwell.net/threads/the-all-inclusive-shoe-boot-thread.1870/page-103#post-228728

The shoe to the left looks almost identicle to the budapester in the middle, but it is not, they are very different in real life.
 

The Shooman

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Here is an excellent demonstration of a Vass budapester:
Vass budapester side.jpg

Here is the budapester from it's best angle (from above). See how smart it looks. People often get put off by the cliff like toe box, but in reality a person is not looking at it side on, instead they are looking at the budapester more from the angle we see below. The budapester is beautiful and unique and full of great character.
Vass budapester black.jpg

Like Walker said, the budapester is quite a sleek shoe and not a big brick like so many internet people think it is. It is quite a compact shoe and few double soled shoes compare to it's sleekness. When l first saw it l was surprised at how small and compact the budapester is....certainly much smaller and sleek than the typical Trickers.

Here is my other budapester:
Todays shoos 60.jpg

If one doesn't like the budapest last then the 3636 last is a classic.
 
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The Shooman

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well, I never handled the english version of the vass book. probably the confusions comes from there?
The english version of the Vass book states things correctly. They distinguish full brogue derbies from the Budapester. Actually the English version is slightly different because they actually call it the `the budapest' instead of `the budapester'.

the net-gents at style got it wrong as usual because it is igents being typical igents. They always get stuff mixed up over there.
 
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The Shooman

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My Vass derbies and oxfords.


All members of the family offer a top draw shoo wearing experience. I have the Vass oxfords because sometimes an English oxford is not good enough and l need to experience the full `shoo treatment'. When l want the full treatment l go Vass all the way. Vass days are always my favourite days because they feel so good on the feet.

The English oxfords are beautiful in a machine made way, but that is where it ends. I can't have that all the time, often l need so much more than that and to take it to the next level. Often l need sturdiness, handmade craftsmanship and boss shoes with major presence, and this is where Vass comes into play. They are unique shoes.

Note:
- the black captoe oxford on left of pic is a shell cordovan on the F last
- the black captoe oxford on right of pic is a boxcalf on the P2 last.

The P2 last looks best of the oxfords because the welt is more trimmed and the welt has no thick heavy duty wheeling marks on it. The F last has more of a casual looking welt with it's wider cut and heavy thick wheeling marks, and this takes away from the effect of the last for an oxford design. The P2 last shoes are made just right, everything is in good balance.


Having old friends is best
It is tempting to get more Vass, but where does it end. I enjoy what l already have and l want to be able to wear them regularly. A man wants old friends, but if he owns too many pairs it means many shoes will hardly get worn and few will become old friends. It's easy to become addicted and keep on buying them, but the real pleasure is in having `old friends' that you wear regularly with just a small number of speciality shoes.
 
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Journeyman

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It is tempting to get more Vass, but where does it end. I enjoy what l already have and l want to be able to wear them regularly. A man wants old friends, but if he owns too many pairs it means many shoes will hardly get worn and few will become old friends. It's easy to become addicted and keep on buying them, but the real pleasure is in having `old friends' that you wear regularly with just a small number of speciality shoes.
I think this is wise. You only have to look at other clothing fora to see people who buy pair after pair after pair of shoes, but it is never enough - they always seem to need more. And yet, as you say, you cannot wear them all.
 

The Shooman

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I think this is wise. You only have to look at other clothing fora to see people who buy pair after pair after pair of shoes, but it is never enough - they always seem to need more. And yet, as you say, you cannot wear them all.
The clothing fora is not good for all men. Some men would be better off keeping away from such things. It can ruin some men by encouraging uncontrolled obsessions. Some men are really suffering, they are no longer in control.
 
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shookt

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I hope to make old friends sooner than later!

I had no idea that the P2 last was sleeker than the F - certainly not my expectation. Are those simple medallion toes on the U last?
Simple medallions are a design that I think works with the chisel toe.
 

The Shooman

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I had no idea that the P2 last was sleeker than the F - certainly not my expectation. Are those simple medallion toes on the U last?
The F last is more sleek for sure, but the P2 last has advantages over the F last IMO.

F last features
- has a slightly bulbous looking toe area, which is alittle odd for such a last
- has an extended welt/sole which detracts from the sleek last
- quirky looking shoes on F last that invites criticism from some

See the extended sole below and the big rough looking welt.
Vass F last wide welt.jpg

compared to an F last with a welt/sole that appears to have been trimmed. It looks better here.
Vass F last narrow welt.jpg


P2 last features
No bulbous toe
No extended welt/sole
No odd features about it



F & U & K lasts
Big extended soles/welts. See the bulbous toe on the F last (first shoe).
Vass F & U lasts.jpg


shookt said:
Simple medallions are a design that I think works with the chisel toe.
Yes a simple pattern/design would probably be better.
 
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walker

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I had no idea that the P2 last was sleeker than the F -
sure, but then you didn't know that just a "small" percentage of the vass output is handmade.

A 15 people workshop can produce 1 - 1200 pairs/year of handmade shoes. nowadadays their production numbers are closer to 3500 - 4000/year, just do the math. just do it, no complaints.

these kinds of rumours are out for seversal years and would affect their production line back to then years, approximately.

rule of thumb:

wheeled frame = handmade, e.g. u & f last
plain frame = machine(industrial), the rest of the crowd

it is a business model I can understand. this is a good example of globalization.

Imo, you're good with Attila. no worries.

I love this motherfucking shit, honestly.
 
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The Shooman

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All my Vass are largely handmade, l see the hand sewn soles with the irregular stitching on all my pairs, and l feel the dimpled insoles (the result of the hand done inseaming pulling against the feather), and l see the irregular hand stacked heels. The only machine made parts would be the sewing of the upper and maybe some machine grinding of the edge of the soles/heels.

When l asked one of the men at Vass if the rumour was true that they were starting to goodyear welt shoes he said no.

I understand Vass have put on more workers to meet the demand, and that explains why some pairs of soles are not as well sewn as they used to be. One of the first main jobs a shoemaker learns to do is sew the soles on and hand welt the shoe, so it might explain why some Vass are not so perfect here. It seems to me that an apprentice cordwainer was working on them.

My personal shoemaker John was only taught hand welting and sole stitching in ltaly, and he did over 3,000 pairs. He was a specialist stitcher. He learned the rest of the shoemaking skills in Australia. He was a typical ltalian who never used a feather, and he would make his own thread and attach it to the bristle.
 
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walker

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Im enjoying this new series
actually, it is not a series. you could do this all day long, but tbh, this wouldn't be fair then.

imo, it is more about the ignorance of these people. just because something is from brand xy and comes from a favorite/preferred affiliate seller it must be amazing, mindblowing, etc., etc., you name it.

there is even an unwritten rule, that it is not allowed to criticize and/or adress issues in the appreciation and affiliate vendors threads, hence there is literally no room for improvent and in educating people.

Gosh...I'm staying clear of those makers that's for certain.
... no need to. if not for the horrendous prices, both companies are capable to produce nice shoes. it is more about when people do not know what to ask for, one can end up with "mediocre" results.

consider, the JLP guy just recently switched from RTW to bespoke. just because it is cool and makes him feel better. he has no history in evaluating what the bespoke process could offer to him, hence he was afraid to voice his ideas. go figure.

here is another number from the EG denizen. It is top drawer(not his first one). it seems flawless, but is it 2.5k flawless? I dunno, it lacks of soul, imo.

eg td.jpg


questions was about the price of a top drawer order:

depends on the amount of modifications
around 2500ish for regular shoes
more for Dover and boots

above number may differ up or down depending on modifications and shoes as I dont think there is a specific MSRP set on them. you basically ask what you want your retailer goes to EG and gets price and then of course they get back to u with price

so I would ask your retailer to get u a quote as it may not be same across the board
 
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Rambo

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actually, it is not a series. you could do this all day long, but tbh, this wouldn't be fair then.
yes its not fair that you're depriving us of this premium content. how else are we supposed to attract random pakistani's to this website to sign up and then never post about their love potions?
 

The Shooman

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Yes, l saw a number of bespokes turn out poorly because the customers didn't know what to ask for.

Walker said:
"it lacks of soul".

I say:
couldn't have said it better. All machine perfection, but soulless.
 

walker

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yes its not fair that you're depriving us of this premium content. how else are we supposed to attract random pakistani's to this website to sign up and then never post about their love potions?
I assume, the crux is to build a dialogue with established members and people, who show genuine interest like e.g. S shookt .

fwiw, when Thruth Thruth started the thread I was totally against it and we had endless discussions about it. now, it seems we can bring it on track. not bad ...
 
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shookt

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2.5k is a lot....it seems like there so many other bespoke options at that price (AH, Japan, other European places).

What might be an example from EG/JLP that would have soul? Perhaps something that is tied more closely to their history?
 

The Shooman

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2.5k is a lot....it seems like there so many other bespoke options at that price (AH, Japan, other European places).
E.G top draw is very unique and serves a specific market. It is a very classic beautiful factory shoe made to look like fancy English bespoke priced in the high $$$$. The styling, leathers and finishings are excellent. If the shoe fits and you don't want to pay huge $$$$ it may be worth buying. If it lasts for 20 years it could be a very worthwhile shoe to buy. I can see why some people would buy them. They look stunning in real life.

Is EG top draw worth 2.5K? They can be to some people for sure. EG have done great things in their factory to achieve that level of work.

shookt said:
What might be an example from EG/JLP that would have soul? Perhaps something that is tied more closely to their history?
None of the rtw EG/JLP have real soul when compared to the handmades. What l can say is that handmade shoes ooze warmth and character that factory shoes never have. Many men don't seem to notice any difference between factory made shoes v's handmade shoes, but some men most certainly do. Compare your Vass to your other shoes and see if you notice the difference. Cold clinical shoes v's the warmth and character of handmade.
 
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sirloin

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There is also an argument to be made, for ppl willing to pay to supporting producers with a story they find appealing, and turn a blind eye to problems that are visible to others. Problems that could even turn them off.

Case in point, justifying EG price levels - to me law of diminishing returns.. At another price point, Aldens often look kinda wonky, but try explaining that, to a avid collector, picking up cordovan and suede like they’re pokemons.
This not to say, that EG and JLP might not be great shoes, but the last time I held a JLP, it did not speak to me at all.

I have a weak spot with Vass. I read what Walker says, and it might be true, I don’t know. Hungarians you know.. But at the end of the day, right now the price/quality/design equation works out for me.
 

shookt

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Is EG top draw worth 2.5K? They can be to some people for sure. EG have done great things in their factory to achieve that level of work.
... no need to. if not for the horrendous prices, both companies are capable to produce nice shoes. it is more about when people do not know what to ask for, one can end up with "mediocre" results.
I see, thank you. Greatest possible factory shoe is an interesting concept. Would something like Meccariello's argentum-welted RTW/MTO line fall in the same category (as compared to his handwelted line)?

I dunno, it lacks of soul, imo.
None of the rtw EG/JLP have real soul when compared to the handmades. What l can say is that handmade shoes ooze warmth and character that factory shoes never have. Many men don't seem to notice any difference between factory made shoes v's handmade shoes, but some men most certainly do. Compare your Vass to your other shoes and see if you notice the difference. Cold clinical shoes v's the warmth and character of handmade.
I have two pairs of Allen Edmonds (my very first foray into shoes) and a pair of GY welted shoes made in Vietnam. Comparing them to my pair from Attila its just night and day, but perhaps that comparison is way too easy.

This brings me to the next issue, the stitching of L welt or fudge welts. None of the conventional factories do it properly. L welts should be hand stitched into the feather like Vass goiser is so the welt is secure against the shoe, but the factory welts never secure the L welt at the top, so they leave it sticking up there where water can get in to the insole and do damage. This is classic cost cutting. Look at L/fudge welt factory shoes and you'll know what l mean. Also, look how crooked this fudge welt is cut on the EG below.
The bumpiness/waviness of the fudge welt means over time its likely to come apart from the uppers at the top of the welt right?
 

walker

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I see, thank you. Greatest possible factory shoe is an interesting concept. Would something like Meccariello's argentum-welted RTW/MTO line fall in the same category (as compared to his handwelted line)?
I've handled at least one pair of Meccariello's and they are great, but then I dunno where you can get the level of attention for your special demands. I would stick with Attila due they already have a picture of your requirements.

I have two pairs of Allen Edmonds (my very first foray into shoes) and a pair of GY welted shoes made in Vietnam. Comparing them to my pair from Attila its just night and day, but perhaps that comparison is way too easy.
my experience with AE lacks of the numbers I've handled in person. they are not very common around my places. afaik, they offer a serious number of lasts, but if I recall correctly their options for customization are limited and/or can only be done in their flagship stores. ps: people in the know pls correct me if necessary, thank you. should be night and day to Attlila, though.

The bumpiness/waviness of the fudge welt means over time its likely to come apart from the uppers at the top of the welt right?
no, the fudging is only decorative, but it is more likely to find on shoes, which are involved in handmade operations versus industrial production lines.
 

walker

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I have a weak spot with Vass. I read what Walker says, and it might be true, I don’t know. Hungarians you know.. But at the end of the day, right now the price/quality/design equation works out for me.
excellent, if they can serve you, you get really good shoes(still). hungarian per se don't match the idea of the rest of the world, no, they don't.
 

The Shooman

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