The knitwear thread

florisgreen

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696
20210412_142555.jpg

One of my very few crew necks: as I wear regularly shirts, I think that vee necks are more suitable, I also like the old fashioned look about them, whereas the round neck ones appear more modern.
This one is a Cesare Attolini jumper produced by their own company and mill Fioroni in Umbria. It's 1ply 100% cashmere with an astonishing fine and dry look and feel, also very tight knitted. They state to only use the best white cashmere and to wash the garments using the water of the near Trasimeno Lake.
The colour is melange and defined as "saffron", and it's actually more vivid as it appears in the picture. Pilling should be hardly a problem with this kind of knit.
 

aristoi bcn

Spanish Rookie
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429
Didn't know Fioroni was Attolini owned. Interesting fact.

Last time I was in Naples the Attolini shop was closed forever. No Kiton, Attolini, Orazio Luciano, Barba or Finamore shops in Naples. Young tailors will still do good for a generation (Carfora, the young Caliendo's, Solito's, Tofani's, etc.) but not sure about the next generation. Anyway, I will be dead.
 

Arnathor

The Hamiltonian Hung Like a Horse
Supporter
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5,132
View attachment 36854
One of my very few crew necks: as I wear regularly shirts, I think that vee necks are more suitable, I also like the old fashioned look about them, whereas the round neck ones appear more modern.
This one is a Cesare Attolini jumper produced by their own company and mill Fioroni in Umbria. It's 1ply 100% cashmere with an astonishing fine and dry look and feel, also very tight knitted. They state to only use the best white cashmere and to wash the garments using the water of the near Trasimeno Lake.
The colour is melange and defined as "saffron", and it's actually more vivid as it appears in the picture. Pilling should be hardly a problem with this kind of knit.
What does something like this cost?
 

florisgreen

Well-Known Member
Messages
696
What does something like this cost?
They are currently sold (in other colours) on Cesare Attolini's website at €800. I bought it on a German online shop for about €400 in sale. Is it worth it? Difficult to say, it's obviously something special (never seen anything similar), but of course you pay also for the name Attolini's prestige. It's more a light weight, more suitable for mild climates, or for a cooler summer evening.
 

Panama

Well-Known Member
Messages
286
I just bought some more items in Falconeri's special price promotion, a sale to you and me. A fisherman knit in Merino and an ultra fine Cashmere crew neck.
 

belinmad

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443
I just bought some more items in Falconeri's special price promotion, a sale to you and me. A fisherman knit in Merino and an ultra fine Cashmere crew neck.

I thought they were a fast fashion, middle of the pack retail brand? Aren't they owned by Calzedonia Group?
 

belinmad

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Messages
443
No, and yes. How is times less quality cashmere and wool fast fashion?

Timeless quality cashmere and wool is a marketing narrative unless it's backed up by something (reviews, track record, market recognition).

Uniqlo is also selling "Timeless quality cashmere and wool" - they are great for basics, but that doesn't put them in the category of luxury cashmere that we usually talk about. They are also owned by a group that does fast fashion (or low cost fashion, whatever you want to call it), so forgive me if I am surprised/hesitant to automatically put them in the high end category.

So to rephrase my question: what are the characteristics that you (or others) have found in Falconeri that make their products timeless and high quality? How to they compare to Pringle, Ballantyne, Hermes, Lockie, etc?

A cursory google search doesn't yield much in terms of reviews, etc. One interesting bit though, is your own Feb 2020 post on SF asking what people think of Falconeri :rolleyes:
 

Panama

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Messages
286
Timeless quality cashmere and wool is a marketing narrative unless it's backed up by something (reviews, track record, market recognition).

Uniqlo is also selling "Timeless quality cashmere and wool" - they are great for basics, but that doesn't put them in the category of luxury cashmere that we usually talk about. They are also owned by a group that does fast fashion (or low cost fashion, whatever you want to call it), so forgive me if I am surprised/hesitant to automatically put them in the high end category.

So to rephrase my question: what are the characteristics that you (or others) have found in Falconeri that make their products timeless and high quality? How to they compare to Pringle, Ballantyne, Hermes, Lockie, etc?

A cursory google search doesn't yield much in terms of reviews, etc. One interesting bit though, is your own Feb 2020 post on SF asking what people think of Falconeri :rolleyes:

Calzedonia acquired Falconeri in 2009.
It appears to be a reasonable mid market brand that competes with Malo and Gran Sasso.

Uniqlo does not market timeless cashmere, and at a fifth of the price of most mid market Italian brands would fail to justify that statement.

Just because it's owned by Calzedonia, doesn't represent who they are. LVMH own Loro Piana, but still produce Dior tee-shirts and trainers.


And my post on SF was regarding polo shirts rather than sweaters and jumpersin cashmere or merino.
 
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Panama

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286
Pringle are average, Ballantyne are an imitation, Hermes is aimed at a different market. Lockie is fine but is a different product. Do you own much cashmere or merino?

Malo, Cucinelli, Avon Celli, Aida Barni, Cruciani, Gran Sasso, Ferrante, Fioroni, Filippo de laurentiis, Leopoldo/Di Poldo Cashmere, Cazirinsio/Aran Cashmere, Cristiano Fissore/F Cashmere, Della Ciana, Zanieri, Colombo, Piacenza, Loro Piana?
 

Panama

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Messages
286
Calzedonia acquired Falconeri in 2009.
It appears to be a reasonable mid market brand that competes with Malo and Gran Sasso.

Uniqlo does not market timeless cashmere, and at a fifth of the price of most mid market Italian brands would fail to justify that statement.

Just because it's owned by Calzedonia, doesn't represent who they are. LVMH own Loro Piana, but still produce Dior tee-shirts and trainers.


And my post on SF was regarding polo shirts rather than sweaters and jumpersin cashmere or merino.

The evolution of luxury​

We believe in long-lasting beauty.
In the value of garments to wear and love.

Our secret is a magic combination of luxurious natural fibers, Italian craftsmanship and innovative production methods.

From the pastures of Mongolia to our stores, we look after every detail, without any middlemen, while respecting people and the environment.

We believe in the highest quality cashmere at exceptional prices. Extraordinary products for extraordinary people.
This is the evolution of luxury. This is Falconeri.

Uniqlo
We sell cheap tat made in Bangladesh by children ...
 

belinmad

Well-Known Member
Messages
443
It appears to be a reasonable mid market brand that competes with Malo and Gran Sasso.
Thank you - this is the answer I was looking for. Everything else is extra, you can keep it.

Malo, Cucinelli, Avon Celli, Aida Barni, Cruciani, Gran Sasso, Ferrante, Fioroni, Filippo de laurentiis, Leopoldo/Di Poldo Cashmere, Cazirinsio/Aran Cashmere, Cristiano Fissore/F Cashmere, Della Ciana, Zanieri, Colombo, Piacenza, Loro Piana?

There you go - what a lovely flex. Please don't forget to post many pictures of all the labels, so we know you do in fact own all of these. That information will be super helpful in advancing the conversation.

The evolution of luxury​

We believe in long-lasting beauty.
In the value of garments to wear and love.

Our secret is a magic combination of luxurious natural fibers, Italian craftsmanship and innovative production methods.

From the pastures of Mongolia to our stores, we look after every detail, without any middlemen, while respecting people and the environment.

We believe in the highest quality cashmere at exceptional prices. Extraordinary products for extraordinary people.
This is the evolution of luxury. This is Falconeri.
This is what people define as "marketing narrative".


Uniqlo
We sell cheap tat made in Bangladesh by children ...
Don't remember reading this on Uniqlo's website. Will search again. thank you.

Pringle are average, Ballantyne are an imitation, Hermes is aimed at a different market. Lockie is fine but is a different product.
This one I will let The Shooman The Shooman answer.


Do you own much cashmere or merino?
Yes, I do own some cashmere and merino, thanks for asking.
 

florisgreen

Well-Known Member
Messages
696

The evolution of luxury​

We believe in long-lasting beauty.
In the value of garments to wear and love.

Our secret is a magic combination of luxurious natural fibers, Italian craftsmanship and innovative production methods.

From the pastures of Mongolia to our stores, we look after every detail, without any middlemen, while respecting people and the environment.

We believe in the highest quality cashmere at exceptional prices. Extraordinary products for extraordinary people.
This is the evolution of luxury. This is Falconeri.

Uniqlo
We sell cheap tat made in Bangladesh by children ...
I may be wrong, since I have no direct experience, but about Falconeri I don't have the impression that they are producing top quality cashmere, at least not in a classic way. I became aware of this brand because it's one of the major sponsors of the Italian ski team. If you visit their website, you can see that the most part of the production is fine, thin garments, more suitable to be worn on the skin than to be layered. I don't want to sound snob, but at a price point under 300 Euros it's hardly probable to get something really exclusive. And of course what they so nicely state can just be good marketing and have no real meaning. They claim not to have middlemen, but the same is true for Loro Piana, who even own their goats, and see what a huge price difference. Of course Loro Piana is an established luxury brand that can charge higher prices, but if you take a look, you can see that their production is quite more substantial, besides the extra prestige.
 

Panama

Well-Known Member
Messages
286
There you go - what a lovely flex. Please don't forget to post many pictures of all the labels, so we know you do in fact own all of these. That information will be super helpful in advancing the conversation.
You mean what the majority of this knitwear thread is about? Why are you here? Go and play with your fantasy shirts from Madrid.
 

Panama

Well-Known Member
Messages
286
I may be wrong, since I have no direct experience, but about Falconeri I don't have the impression that they are producing top quality cashmere, at least not in a classic way. I became aware of this brand because it's one of the major sponsors of the Italian ski team. If you visit their website, you can see that the most part of the production is fine, thin garments, more suitable to be worn on the skin than to be layered. I don't want to sound snob, but at a price point under 300 Euros it's hardly probable to get something really exclusive. And of course what they so nicely state can just be good marketing and have no real meaning. They claim not to have middlemen, but the same is true for Loro Piana, who even own their goats, and see what a huge price difference. Of course Loro Piana is an established luxury brand that can charge higher prices, but if you take a look, you can see that their production is quite more substantial, besides the extra prestige.
I personally do not think they are a luxury brand. Their pricing is not at that price point. They are not Cucinelli, Colombo or Loro Piana. They are a mid range brand. They are not Uniqlo at €60.00.
 

florisgreen

Well-Known Member
Messages
696
I personally do not think they are a luxury brand. Their pricing is not at that price point. They are not Cucinelli, Colombo or Loro Piana. They are a mid range brand. They are not Uniqlo at €60.00.
I agree about that. What I miss is the exclusivity factor about this brand, but as you say, it's evidently no cheap product. In my opinion Malo is superior, they also offer a quite wider variety.
 

Panama

Well-Known Member
Messages
286
I agree about that. What I miss is the exclusivity factor about this brand, but as you say, it's evidently no cheap product. In my opinion Malo is superior, they also offer a quite wider variety.
What exclusivity factor? These are clothes not a prestige car. I can identify a Bentley but not a Gran Sasso, Falconeri or Malo sweater. I buy mid range as I can afford more, I don't buy budget as they will not last. I don't believe in one wardrobe piece, I want a whole wardrobe. I can afford Malo, Falconeri, Gran Sasso, Ferrante and more. But only Falconeri and Gran Sasso has caught my attention and meets my taste. To be honest I am very happy with John Smedley, yes wafer thin fine fabric. But that is generally my preference.

Malo is very cheap on Yoox at the moment.
 
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florisgreen

Well-Known Member
Messages
696
What exclusivity factor? These are clothes not a prestige car. I can identify a Bentley but not a Gran Sasso, Falconeri or Malo sweater. I buy mid range as I can afford more, I don't buy budget as they will not last. I don't believe in one wardrobe piece, I want a whole wardrobe. I can afford Malo, Falconeri, Gran Sasso, Ferrante and more. But only Falconeri and Gran Sasso has caught my attention and meets my taste. To be honest I am very happy with John Smedley, yes wafer thin fine fabric. But that is generally my preference.

Malo is very cheap on Yoox at the moment.
In the end to each his own: if you're happy with one brand and the product meets your taste, that is good for you. Of course tastes are different and, fortunately, we don't like all the same things.
 

Panama

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Messages
286
In the end to each his own: if you're happy with one brand and the product meets your taste, that is good for you. Of course tastes are different and, fortunately, we don't like all the same things.
Anyway I have just ordered 1000's of kilos of superfine 16 micron Merino greasy wool, so any future purchases will be to assess the competition...
 

Panama

Well-Known Member
Messages
286
That Zegna Baruffa yarn? Did you find a suitable knitter?
Not yet, still looking. I have have ordered raw wool. But as this will not be sheared and processed until the end of the year, it won't be ready until next year. So will order cones from Zegna as a trial run.
 

Panama

Well-Known Member
Messages
286
As Pringle is so great. Sorry, just joking. I only wear this on chilly mornings when taking Lola our dog for a.... The cashmere purchase was binned...

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I bought these two to evaluate the knitter. I am not impressed. They are going back.

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I bought this made in China cotton merino blend to get free shipping. It actually feels very nice. It only arrived today, so hopefully it will wash well this weekend.

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florisgreen

Well-Known Member
Messages
696
As Pringle is so great. Sorry, just joking. I only wear this on chilly mornings when taking Lola our dog for a.... The cashmere purchase was binned...

View attachment 36863

I bought these two to evaluate the knitter. I am not impressed. They are going back.

View attachment 36864
View attachment 36865

I bought this made in China cotton merino blend to get free shipping. It actually feels very nice. It only arrived today, so hopefully it will wash well this weekend.

View attachment 36866
What material is that Pringle? I like the colour. And where was it made? Is it current production?
 

Panama

Well-Known Member
Messages
286
What material is that Pringle? I like the colour. And where was it made? Is it current production?
I can only assume Pure New Wool as per the label or Lambswool. The 200th anniversary was in 2015, and it was made in Scotland. I bought them in Kiltane, a store in Edinburgh.

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The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,244
I wouldn't dare try Pringle and Ballantyne cashmere made these days. Haven't even tried buying 90's Pringle cashmere, and rarely have bought Ballantyne after the 80's. The Ballantyne l have bought after the 80's hasn't been up to snuff (too much pilling). Ballantyne 2000 wool = uninspiring, nothing like the old Ballantyne (awful modern design and boring wool that looks like synthetic).

Hermes made-in-Scotland cashmere is the best made today. The closest cashmere jumpers made to the old standards. A nice thick ply with some pilling, but plush and luxurious.

I made some interesting posts about why I THINK cashmere started to pill after the 80's. The democratisation of cashmere overpopulated the land of goats and quickly ruined the land of natural feed growing in those regions, and alternatives had to be found with a feed source that was inferior.
This one I will let The Shooman The Shooman answer.
 

Panama

Well-Known Member
Messages
286
I wouldn't dare try Pringle and Ballantyne cashmere made these days. Haven't even tried buying 90's Pringle cashmere, and rarely have bought Ballantyne after the 80's. The Ballantyne l have bought after the 80's hasn't been up to snuff (too much pilling). Ballantyne 2000 wool = uninspiring, nothing like the old Ballantyne (awful modern design and boring wool that looks like synthetic).

Hermes made-in-Scotland cashmere is the best made today. The closest cashmere jumpers made to the old standards. A nice thick ply with some pilling, but plush and luxurious.

I made some interesting posts about why I THINK cashmere started to pill after the 80's. The democratisation of cashmere overpopulated the land of goats and quickly ruined the land of natural feed growing in those regions, and alternatives had to be found with a feed source that was inferior.
There Belend. But Hermes costs £930.00, which is a different market to most other brands except Cucinelli, Colombo and Loro Piana.
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
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3,244
There Belend. But Hermes costs £930.00, which is a different market to most other brands except Cucinelli, Colombo and Loro Piana.

Loro Piana makes a nice quality jumper and seems to have great quality control, and of the ltalian knits it could be the best. Cucinelli makes beautiful pieces, but the quality doesn't seem as good as LP...maybe it's the heavy processing that makes it pill much more.

Hermes (made-in-Scotland) is in a different league from the rest because it has denser knitting, thicker ply, higher gauge, uses mother-of-pearl instead of plastic buttons and makes a noticeably superior jumper. You get a lot more with Hermes than the high priced Italians which makes Hermes made-in-Scotland very good value IMO. Nothing compares to it, and the satisfaction had from one of their pieces far outweighs anything else these days. The 3 ply cashmere Ballantyne turtlenecks l had from the 90's (new) are amazing to wear, but the Hermes Scotland turtleneck is extra plush and nice and something very special indeed, and no Loro Piana baby cashmere or anything else can compare to it. I do have some 80's Ballantyne cashmere turtlenecks that are bulletproof, but that orange Hermes is a delight to wear.
 

florisgreen

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Messages
696
Loro Piana makes a nice quality jumper and seems to have great quality control, and of the ltalian knits it could be the best. Cucinelli makes beautiful pieces, but the quality doesn't seem as good as LP...maybe it's the heavy processing that makes it pill much more.

Hermes (made-in-Scotland) is in a different league from the rest because it has denser knitting, thicker ply, higher gauge, uses mother-of-pearl instead of plastic buttons and makes a noticeably superior jumper. You get a lot more with Hermes than the high priced Italians which makes Hermes made-in-Scotland very good value IMO. Nothing compares to it, and the satisfaction had from one of their pieces far outweighs anything else these days. The 3 ply cashmere Ballantyne turtlenecks l had from the 90's (new) are amazing to wear, but the Hermes Scotland turtleneck is extra plush and nice and something very special indeed, and no Loro Piana baby cashmere or anything else can compare to it. I do have some 80's Ballantyne cashmere turtlenecks that are bulletproof, but that orange Hermes is a delight to wear.
Is Hermes still producing (part of) the cashmere collection in Scotland, or are you talking of the past? You supposed that Ballantyne was producing for Hermes in the golden age, but today? As far as I know no quality producer uses plastic buttons, only mother-of-pearl or horn. Can you once again post some pictures of that Hermes turtleneck (the previous ones in the old posts are no longer visible)? Also a comparison with the Ballantyne side by side would be much appreciated.
 
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florisgreen

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696
There Belend. But Hermes costs £930.00, which is a different market to most other brands except Cucinelli, Colombo and Loro Piana.
What this price refers to? Did you see a Hermes jumper "Made in Scotland" sold at that price?
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
Messages
3,244
Is Hermes still producing (part of) the cashmere collection in Scotland, or are you talking of the past?

They still have their higher end range of knitwear made in Scotland. A Scottish 2 ply v neck will be double the price of an Italian 2 ply v neck.

As far as I know no quality producer uses plastic buttons, only mother-of-pearl or horn.

Brunello Cucinelli uses plastic buttons, and it shows. Probably many other makers too.
Can you once again post some pictures of that Hermes turtleneck (the previous ones in the old posts are no more visible)? Also a comparison with the Ballantyne side by side would be very appeciated.
O.k. I will also post those McGeorge shawl cardigans too. It is night time now, so l will photograph them in the day.
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
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3,244

florisgreen

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696
Interesting how that is made in Great Britain and not Scotland. Hermes' has also had their cashmere items made in Belgium. Obviously they are after certain styles and the various factories are able to make to the required quality.

The 950 GBP is quite cheap compared to the Hermes made-in-Scotland pieces which start at least around 1,400 GBP, perhaps a bit more these days.
Yes, it seems to be not so expensive as expected, even though it's a lady jumper and from the look it's probably a plain 1ply knit. And yes, made in Great Britain is quite suspicious: why don't they use the more prestigious "Made in Scotland"? Is it understatement, or is the production actually not in Scotland? It's possible of course that they have multiple factories producing for them located in different countries.
 
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florisgreen

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696
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Some of my proudly owned Ballantynes made in Scotland. I don't know about the time of production, but I bought them a couple of years ago in a shop in Rome and I was told they are the last ones made in Scotland before the brand was sold. As you can see the brown one has a different label and it should be older than the others. As already stated, they are actually pieces of outstanding knitwear, something I don't see around anymore. The so called "bare finish" makes this knit so solid and tight, completely different from anything else.
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florisgreen

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Messages
696
Brunello Cucinelli uses plastic buttons, and it shows. Probably many other makers too.
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I don't know, maybe you have seen plastic buttons, but these ones look horn to me (I also saw something in person and touched). And it would make no sense to use plastic buttons at the price point of Cucinelli. As you know, I'm not a great fan of theirs, I simply don't like their style, but it's difficult to believe that they could have such a big quality issue like plastic buttons.
 
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florisgreen

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696
N.Peal is a brand that doesn't seem to be mentioned much here - what are your views?
I don't know about them, I never see their garments in person. I took a look at their website, well made, and got an impression of decent quality. They even propose baby cashmere at €540, that looks rather affordable compared with the big names. From an online picture it is however impossible to assess the quality of the material and the finishing.
 

belinmad

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Messages
443
I don't know about them, I never see their garments in person. I took a look at their website, well made, and got an impression of decent quality. They even propose baby cashmere at €540, that looks rather affordable compared with the big names. From an online picture it is however impossible to assess the quality of the material and the finishing.

I've bought a couple of things from them, and so far the quality is quite decent - little to no piling, good seams, shape is strong and stable. The items I got are fairly light and fine (turtleneck, long sleeve shirt), so hard to compare with the typical heavier, chunkier things we usually comment on. It's early to tell, but value for money I think it's a good option here in the UK.
 
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