Brexit - The UK and the EU

Pimpernel Smith

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Fear not gentle reader, all of this is Covid-lockdown induced, combined with some very bad planning. No problems with lack stock, or deliveries from Amazon.

The speech by Boris at the UN the other week on going Green tells all you need to know about the lack of talent in Brit politics: ''It is easy. It’s not only easy, it’s lucrative...'' You compare that with JFK's Moon speech ''We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other the things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard...''

All the wrong sorts, for all the wrong reasons, chasing easy money.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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So how come no other lockdown country has those problems? No gas stations closed, no empty shelves, no roaming charges, no broke farmers, no nothing?
During the lockdowns there were certainly empty shelves in the supermarkets in the Netherlands and real shortages in the city ones - the just in time ones with no stock. And there is a war against farming in the Netherlands to meet EU targets...

But I get where you're coming from. If you read the rest of my post, it's a big hint, a lack of planning talent. There's zero shortage of petrol in the refineries, but there is a massive shortage of lorry drivers who were laid-off, moved onto other jobs more lucrative.

The haulage industry in the UK, also embraced all those venture capitalist Apps that are a one way ticket to the lowest common denominator.

As the journalist, Peter Hitchens stated he was against Brexit on the basis of that Civil Service and the Brit politicians were of such rank mediocrity they couldn't run a modern state without the backbone and instruction of the EU. Quite cynical as he hates the EU.

You're not dealing with a professional oligarchy or managerial class as you and I know it. You're dealing with well placed clerks.
 

güero

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Most of all I have the impression that I'm dealing with people who are still in denial about what problems they themselves created, even though they had been told about exactly those problems occuring for years now. Why would they make plans for circumstances they don't believe to exist.
 

belinmad

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But I get where you're coming from. If you read the rest of my post, it's a big hint, a lack of planning talent. There's zero shortage of petrol in the refineries, but there is a massive shortage of lorry drivers who were laid-off, moved onto other jobs more lucrative.

The haulage industry in the UK, also embraced all those venture capitalist Apps that are a one way ticket to the lowest common denominator.

As the journalist, Peter Hitchens stated he was against Brexit on the basis of that Civil Service and the Brit politicians were of such rank mediocrity they couldn't run a modern state without the backbone and instruction of the EU. Quite cynical as he hates the EU.

You're not dealing with a professional oligarchy or managerial class as you and I know it. You're dealing with well placed clerks.

The first sane and pretty accurate thing I’ve read from you in a very long time.
 

formby002

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During the lockdowns there were certainly empty shelves in the supermarkets in the Netherlands and real shortages in the city ones - the just in time ones with no stock. And there is a war against farming in the Netherlands to meet EU targets...

But I get where you're coming from. If you read the rest of my post, it's a big hint, a lack of planning talent. There's zero shortage of petrol in the refineries, but there is a massive shortage of lorry drivers who were laid-off, moved onto other jobs more lucrative.

The haulage industry in the UK, also embraced all those venture capitalist Apps that are a one way ticket to the lowest common denominator.

As the journalist, Peter Hitchens stated he was against Brexit on the basis of that Civil Service and the Brit politicians were of such rank mediocrity they couldn't run a modern state without the backbone and instruction of the EU. Quite cynical as he hates the EU.

You're not dealing with a professional oligarchy or managerial class as you and I know it. You're dealing with well placed clerks.
As I have pointed out before. Certain sections of the economy have become addicted to cheap labour. That has now gone. As I have also pointed out before, the obsession with efficiencies comes at the expense of resilience.

It'll be solved.
 

formby002

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9fo0rxhfw7q71.jpg
You're quoting a pound shop Daily Mail there. The Express would claim that the moon is made of green cheese if it would sell more paper.
 

Rambo

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You're quoting a pound shop Daily Mail there. The Express would claim that the moon is made of green cheese if it would sell more paper.
are any of those supposedly non-factual claims inaccurate?
 

formby002

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are any of those supposedly non-factual claims inaccurate?
Fishing hasn't collapsed, neither has farming.

How's that for starters?

Secondly, I've seen very few empty shelves in the supermarket and the MSM created the 'fuel shortage'.

Stop. Reading. The. British. Media. Because. They. Are. Lying. Or. Sensationlising. For. Clicks.

Cobley gets it:


1633069942261.png
 

belinmad

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Fishing hasn't collapsed, neither has farming.

How's that for starters?

Secondly, I've seen very few empty shelves in the supermarket and the MSM created the 'fuel shortage'.

Stop. Reading. The. British. Media. Because. They. Are. Lying. Or. Sensationlising. For. Clicks.

Cobley gets it:


View attachment 41510

Maybe there’s a bit of exaggeration going on, but I have noticed that there’s a less product to choose from at the supermarket, many things that were coming in from the continent are now impossible to find (Spanish, Italian and French products in particular is what I’ve noticed, both fresh as well as packaged), anything from car shops to construction is delayed because they are either lacking inventory (my car has been in the shop waiting for parts since July, and everyone I know who is undergoing renovations is waiting for something from Europe to finish the work - kitchen tops, appliances, bathroom furniture, etc. ), or short on staff (noticeably restaurants in London).

Perhaps it’s all anecdotal, but I do believe Brexit is having a sizable impact on supply chains and the economy overall, particularly now after COVID restrictions are over and things are starting to accelerate.
 

Kingstonian

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Fishing hasn't collapsed, neither has farming.

How's that for starters?

Secondly, I've seen very few empty shelves in the supermarket and the MSM created the 'fuel shortage'.

Stop. Reading. The. British. Media. Because. They. Are. Lying. Or. Sensationlising. For. Clicks.

Cobley gets it:


View attachment 41510
It’s more a case that most of the British people believe the current government are a weak and useless shower who are failing the country and dithering when any issues occur.

As for the media, some newspapers will print two completely opposing stories purely to have all bases covered for click bait.
 

Rambo

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Fishing hasn't collapsed, neither has farming.
under the hyperbole it says fishing and farming businesses will go bust. has that happened?

Secondly, I've seen very few empty shelves in the supermarket and the MSM created the 'fuel shortage'.
is this the Pimpernel Smith Pimpernel Smith program where you've checked all the shelves and petrol stations in the nation to give us this report?

Stop. Reading. The. British. Media. Because. They. Are. Lying. Or. Sensationlising. For. Clicks.
you're god damn right they are!

i don't read any british media. what i did enjoy was this mashup of headlines.

Perhaps it’s all anecdotal, but I do believe Brexit is having a sizable impact on supply chains and the economy overall, particularly now after COVID restrictions are over and things are starting to accelerate.
is that brexit or just the general economic factors that are leading to shutdowns everywhere?
 

Pimpernel Smith

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There's no shortage of petrol, the refineries don't get the oil from the continent anyway.

The issue is one of lack of drivers, the backlog at the DVLA caused through the lockdown and their strike, the Uber style Apps that some of the sections of the industry embraced, the crap ability of this government and civil service to plan, opening up after lock-down and the GBP 11-17 an hour that HGV drivers get paid. Which I am sure you can get stacking shelves on the nightshift somewhere. Back in the old days, the drivers were staff for the oil companies and some of them still may be. With good pensions and comparative good wages and conditions.

The issue of EU lorry drivers jobbing in the UK, should have been well seen and planned for if they decided to return home.

The perishable goods issue is both ways and to do with the bureacracy, the English/Expat supermarkets here just stock the beer, crisps, cereals, jams and the American equivalent now. It's inconvenient if you like pork pies or English bacon.
 

formby002

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There's no shortage of petrol, the refineries don't get the oil from the continent anyway.

The issue is one of lack of drivers, the backlog at the DVLA caused through the lockdown and their strike, the Uber style Apps that some of the sections of the industry embraced, the crap ability of this government and civil service to plan, opening up after lock-down and the GBP 11-17 an hour that HGV drivers get paid. Which I am sure you can get stacking shelves on the nightshift somewhere. Back in the old days, the drivers were staff for the oil companies and some of them still may be. With good pensions and comparative good wages and conditions.

The issue of EU lorry drivers jobbing in the UK, should have been well seen and planned for if they decided to return home.

The perishable goods issue is both ways and to do with the bureacracy, the English/Expat supermarkets here just stock the beer, crisps, cereals, jams and the American equivalent now. It's inconvenient if you like pork pies or English bacon.
BP has known about the driver problem for months at least and has chosen to do fuck all about it, the driver shortage didn't just materialise out of thin air last week. However, there weren't any major problems to my knowledge until the BBC got hold of the story (an apparent leak) and decided to supercharge it causing panic buying at the pumps only then to report the day after that there is a 'fuel crisis' that they were instrumental in fomenting. Shades of Robert Peston causing a run on Northern Rock back in 07. The first run on a UK bank in 150yrs!

As for Bmd's point about his car part. The automotive industry has an extremely complicated global supply chain and the bottleneck could be anywhere.

As for Rambo's point about me visiting every petrol station/supermarket in the land, of course, I haven't, but I don't need to. I travel all over the UK and have colleagues and family who also live all over the UK. I think I'd have heard if there were food shortages akin to Stalingrad class of '42!

They may, however, have run out of Avocados at the Kings Cross branch of Waitrose... and be starving to death in Bloomsbury!
 
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belinmad

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As for Bmd's point about his car part. The automotive industry has an extremely complicated global supply chain and the bottleneck could be anywhere.

It’s a 69 Porsche. Parts are stuck in Germany mate. Dont be a know it all twat, will you?
 

Rambo

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There's no shortage of petrol, the refineries don't get the oil from the continent anyway.

The issue is one of lack of drivers, the backlog at the DVLA caused through the lockdown and their strike, the Uber style Apps that some of the sections of the industry embraced, the crap ability of this government and civil service to plan, opening up after lock-down and the GBP 11-17 an hour that HGV drivers get paid.
So there is a shortage because of a lack of lorry drivers.
 

formby002

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It’s a 69 Porsche. Parts are stuck in Germany mate. Dont be a know it all twat, will you?
I assumed you were talking about your Tesla as you didn't mention the car brand. So don't be an aggressive twat.

Apology accepted.
 

Rambo

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In the main, yes. The hauliers have known about the change in the rules and have done fuck all about it.
No I know what is causing the shortage. I was just reiterating that he was admitting in his own denial of a shortage that there is, in fact, a shortage.
 

formby002

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No I know what is causing the shortage. I was just reiterating that he was admitting in his own denial of a shortage that there is, in fact, a shortage.
Well, one particular shortage is causing another shortage which is usually the case. But to solve the problem you have to look at the whole picture rather than focusing on the aspects that merely confirms one's ideological priors which is what many Brexit-obsessed commentators do.

Some sectors of the UK economy have built their business model on a plentiful supply of cheap labour and I'd rather not live in a country that has exploitive employment practices irrespective of where the workers come from. People should be treated with dignity not subjected to neo-Dickensian employment.

This is not the fault of the EU by the way.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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No I know what is causing the shortage. I was just reiterating that he was admitting in his own denial of a shortage that there is, in fact, a shortage.
There's no shortage of labour or essential goods and foods, including petrol and diesel.

There's a shortage of those who are allowed to be drivers because of a DVLA back-log and the very poor wages in the sector which now can't open up completely because of this, those who have left the industry during lock-down, the crap working conditions and renumeration.
 

formby002

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There's no shortage of labour or essential goods and foods, including petrol and diesel.

There's a shortage of those who are allowed to be drivers because of a DVLA back-log and the very poor wages in the sector which now can't open up completely because of this, those who have left the industry during lock-down, the crap working conditions and renumeration.
Tanker drivers used to be well paid. Those shunting aviation fuel up and down the M56 from Stanlow to Manchester airport and back earned a pretty penny. Replaced by a pipeline now though.

It is also worth noting that HGV drivers need(ed) supplementary training (Hazchem Hazpak &c) to move dangerous goods.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Tanker drivers used to be well paid. Those shunting aviation fuel up and down the M56 from Stanlow to Manchester airport and back earned a pretty penny. Replaced by a pipeline now though.

It is also worth noting that HGV drivers need(ed) supplementary training (Hazchem Hazpak &c) to move dangerous goods.
A friend of mine's father was working for Shell Stanlow as a tanker driver and I know for fact he was on a minimal of GBP 28,000 back in '87/88. As they were advertising for HGV drivers on that starting pay. That was alright 30 odd years ago. Not great, but not bad considering they're on the sam pay now.

I know a few stories about Shell and some of the dogy fuel scams that were going on from the 60s and how up until the 70s, you'd get your car filled for free as someone would top up the cars in the car park.

My first job was working on fabricating the bottom loading skid units - as opposed to the top ones - that filled the tankers that saved 20% of the fule lost to evaporation. That was pretty good for a semi-student '87-92. A bit of travel around the UK and to Cork.
It’s a 69 Porsche. Parts are stuck in Germany mate. Dont be a know it all twat, will you?
They're hardly off the shelf items are they?

After some initial turbulance, the UK companies I buy from, all have online platforms (well, other than Taylors of Bond Street) which includes all import duties. So you don't get hit with unidentified tax and custom duties and the courier is not delayed. I am paying more though, but not as much as when the customs are left to their own devices. I order, it will arrive within 2-3 days on average. The old days, there were a few beauts over night. The good old days of BB was also pretty phenomenal from the USA. Order Thursday, be delivered Monday.
 

formby002

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A friend of mine's father was working for Shell Stanlow as a tanker driver and I know for fact he was on a minimal of GBP 28,000 back in '87/88. As they were advertising for HGV drivers on that starting pay. That was alright 30 odd years ago. Not great, but not bad considering they're on the sam pay now.

I know a few stories about Shell and some of the dogy fuel scams that were going on from the 60s and how up until the 70s, you'd get your car filled for free as someone would top up the cars in the car park.

My first job was working on fabricating the bottom loading skid units - as opposed to the top ones - that filled the tankers that saved 20% of the fule lost to evaporation. That was pretty good for a semi-student '87-92. A bit of travel around the UK and to Cork.

They're hardly off the shelf items are they?

After some initial turbulance, the UK companies I buy from, all have online platforms (well, other than Taylors of Bond Street) which includes all import duties. So you don't get hit with unidentified tax and custom duties and the courier is not delayed. I am paying more though, but not as much as when the customs are left to their own devices. I order, it will arrive within 2-3 days on average. The old days, there were a few beauts over night. The good old days of BB was also pretty phenomenal from the USA. Order Thursday, be delivered Monday.
£28,000 in 1987 would be just over £80,000 now.
 

Rambo

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There's no shortage of labour or essential goods and foods, including petrol and diesel.

There's a shortage of those who are allowed to be drivers because of a DVLA back-log and the very poor wages in the sector which now can't open up completely because of this, those who have left the industry during lock-down, the crap working conditions and renumeration.
its literally a fucking shortage if there is no one to get the gas to the pumps stop being a hardheaded pedant
 

Rambo

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There's no shortage of labour or essential goods and foods, including petrol and diesel.

There's a shortage of those who are allowed to be drivers because of a DVLA back-log and the very poor wages in the sector which now can't open up completely because of this, those who have left the industry during lock-down, the crap working conditions and renumeration.
your own man thinks otherwise

gxtjgktwvnq71.jpg
 

Pimpernel Smith

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your own man thinks otherwise

gxtjgktwvnq71.jpg
There is no real shortage of petrol, or food in a not enough to go around sense. As an example, if the refineries produce more petrol will this crisis end? No, is the answer. What there is, is a lack of logistical capacity. All of this could have been foreseen and planned for. Bugger-all to do with Brexit, everything to do with lock-downs that everyone thought came with no costs.

There's 54,000 HGV license applications waiting to be renewed. In January of this year, the DVLA managed to process 173 of them. That's what I'm talking about rank mediocrity, living high on the hog in lockdown and working from home. It's utterly incompetent.

The expansion of government in the post-Covid and new Green world requires ultimate competency, which you're not going to get in the UK, or elsewhere on the continent. What you're going to get is stifling bureaucracy, failed targets and people tossing it off on the government tit.
 

Rambo

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There is no real shortage of petrol, or food in a not enough to go around sense. As an example, if the refineries produce more petrol will this crisis end? No, is the answer. What there is, is a lack of logistical capacity. All of this could have been foreseen and planned for. Bugger-all to do with Brexit, everything to do with lock-downs that everyone thought came with no costs.

There's 54,000 HGV license applications waiting to be renewed. In January of this year, the DVLA managed to process 173 of them. That's what I'm talking about rank mediocrity, living high on the hog in lockdown and working from home. It's utterly incompetent.

The expansion of government in the post-Covid and new Green world requires ultimate competency, which you're not going to get in the UK, or elsewhere on the continent. What you're going to get stifling bureaucracy, failed targets and people tossing it off the government tit.
its literally a fucking shortage if there is no one to get the gas to the pumps stop being a hardheaded pedant
^^^^^^^
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Don't get lost in semantics, we need to be specific on what the issues are i.e. lack of capacity in logistical supply chains. As stated, if the refineries ramp up production of fuel, will there be an end to shortages at the petrol pump? No, because that's not the issue.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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The clue there is multiple answers, as a recent major event, Brexit would always be high in responses.
That IR35 figure is interesting. I didn't think there would be many self-employed HGV drivers.

IR35 has wrecked the contracting market in many areas. Engineering is a big one. Try recruiting an engineer of any discipline to work at Dounreay for example.
That raised my eyebrow too. There will have been plenty/loads/a high minority/high majority of self-employed HGV drivers from Eastern Europe and the continent who were working temporary and likely not paying any tax.

The old tax regime was weighted towards the self-employed paying stopages of around 12%. Not bad, not bad at all. A much better deal than working staff. Considering there wasn't much of a benefit in the UK system.

The original IR35 system came about because a bunch of engineers who had been working at Jacobs in London on top dollar for nearly two decades who suddenly had their contracts terminated demanded dole money, for which they weren't entitled too. When the tax man got a whiff of what they had been missing, the game changed. But not without loop holes. That was in the late 1990s.

The tax regime in the UK is still considered preferencial. Several of the consultants I use as top-up in Italy, all have their companies based in the UK. One particular lock-up in Leeds is very popular, as is a couple of addresses in London. Perfectly legal with some fudging, well was last time I checked. But not really what you want for full transparency.

The more the governments tinker with legislation, the worse it gets, there ain't no cure or get-out-clause for full-time, full-benefit, gainful work and employment. The issue is complext on many levels, the prime one being that it pays to employ the self-employed above full-time staff for several positions, particularly project based ones. And why shouldn't someone taking temporary, higher risk positions pay overall less tax with dividends as a reward for periods of unemployment? I get the otherside of the argument too. No easy answer.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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If these figures are right, there's no shortage of HGV license holders in the UK, entice them back with decent wages and conditions, but that's not what the low paid gig economy is about is it:

 

Fwiffo

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I spent an hour this morning watching Sky News. It sounds all very dire. Christmas is ruined.
 

formby002

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Imagine being a British company begging (threatening?) the government to allow you to continue your exploitative business practices, and then imagine a soi-disant liberal media outlet enabling it.
 
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