Brexit - The UK and the EU

Pimpernel Smith

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There's been a number of disturbing cases here in the Netherlands. Young women with a bout of depression being assisted to kill themselves and the likes.

At times, there are certain aspects in the national psyche and body politic that I find troublesome. A certain coldness and ice like determination to be blinkered and bureaucratically committed resolutely to the process in an almost Catch 22 way with zero empathy. A bit like the UK's old Jobs Worth's.
 

Rambo

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There's been a number of disturbing cases here in the Netherlands. Young women with a bout of depression being assisted to kill themselves and the likes.

At times, there are certain aspects in the national psyche and body politic that I find troublesome. A certain coldness and ice like determination to be blinkered and bureaucratically committed resolutely to the process in an almost Catch 22 way with zero empathy. A bit like the UK's old Jobs Worth's.
is there proof of malicious intent in these stories? don't people have the free will to be able to decide on whether or not the time is right for them?
 

Pimpernel Smith

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is there proof of malicious intent in these stories? don't people have the free will to be able to decide on whether or not the time is right for them?

Yes and no. People with dementia, for example, might not have a clue what they've just signed onto.


 

formby002

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is there proof of malicious intent in these stories? don't people have the free will to be able to decide on whether or not the time is right for them?

This is most concerning (from Clause 5):

'[... ] In 30 years, the Netherlands has moved from euthanasia of people who are terminally ill, to euthanasia of those who are chronically ill; from euthanasia for physical illness, to euthanasia for mental illness; from euthanasia for mental illness, to euthanasia for psychological distress or mental suffering—and now to euthanasia simply if a person is over the age of 70 and “tired of living.” Dutch euthanasia protocols have also moved from conscious patients providing explicit consent, to unconscious patients unable to provide consent. Denying euthanasia or pas in the Netherlands is now considered a form of discrimination against people with chronic illness, whether the illness be physical or psychological, because those people will be forced to “suffer” longer than those who are terminally ill. Non-voluntary euthanasia is now being justified by appealing to the social duty of citizens and the ethical pillar of beneficence. In the Netherlands, euthanasia has moved from being a measure of last resort to being one of early intervention. Belgium has followed suit 37, and troubling evidence is emerging from Oregon specifically with respect to the protection of people with depression and the objectivity of the process. [...]'

Where does it stop? How robust are the safeguards?

'[...] The United Nations has found that the euthanasia law in the Netherlands is in violation of its Universal Declaration of Human Rights because of the risk it poses to the rights of safety and integrity for every person’s life. The UN has also expressed concern that the system may fail to detect and to prevent situations in which people could be subjected to undue pressure to access or to provide euthanasia and could circumvent the safeguards that are in place. [...]'
 
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Pimpernel Smith

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Aye:

 

fxh

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This is most concerning (from Clause 5):

'[... ] In 30 years, the Netherlands has moved from euthanasia of people who are terminally ill, to euthanasia of those who are chronically ill; from euthanasia for physical illness, to euthanasia for mental illness; from euthanasia for mental illness, to euthanasia for psychological distress or mental suffering—and now to euthanasia simply if a person is over the age of 70 and “tired of living.” Dutch euthanasia protocols have also moved from conscious patients providing explicit consent, to unconscious patients unable to provide consent. Denying euthanasia or pas in the Netherlands is now considered a form of discrimination against people with chronic illness, whether the illness be physical or psychological, because those people will be forced to “suffer” longer than those who are terminally ill. Non-voluntary euthanasia is now being justified by appealing to the social duty of citizens and the ethical pillar of beneficence. In the Netherlands, euthanasia has moved from being a measure of last resort to being one of early intervention. Belgium has followed suit 37, and troubling evidence is emerging from Oregon specifically with respect to the protection of people with depression and the objectivity of the process. [...]'

Where does it stop? How robust are the safeguards?

'[...] The United Nations has found that the euthanasia law in the Netherlands is in violation of its Universal Declaration of Human Rights because of the risk it poses to the rights of safety and integrity for every person’s life. The UN has also expressed concern that the system may fail to detect and to prevent situations in which people could be subjected to undue pressure to access or to provide euthanasia and could circumvent the safeguards that are in place. [...]'

Pereira's attack on legalizing euthanasia or assisted suicide: smoke and mirrors
J Downie 1, K Chambaere, J L Bernheim

Erratum in
  • Curr Oncol. 2012 Jun;19(3):e227
Abstract
Objective: To review the empirical claims made in: Pereira J. Legalizing euthanasia or assisted suicide: the illusion of safeguards and controls. Curr Oncol 2011;18:e38-45.
Design: We collected all of the empirical claims made by Jose Pereira in "Legalizing euthanasia or assisted suicide: the illusion of safeguards and controls." We then collected all reference sources provided for those claims. We compared the claims with the sources (where sources were provided) and evaluated the level of support, if any, the sources provide for the claims. We also reviewed other available literature to assess the veracity of the empirical claims made in the paper. We then wrote the present paper using examples from the review.
Results: Pereira makes a number of factual statements without providing any sources. Pereira also makes a number of factual statements with sources, where the sources do not, in fact, provide support for the statements he made. Pereira also makes a number of false statements about the law and practice in jurisdictions that have legalized euthanasia or assisted suicide.
Conclusions: Pereira's conclusions are not supported by the evidence he provided. His paper should not be given any credence in the public policy debate about the legal status of assisted suicide and euthanasia in Canada and around the world.
 

Rambo

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Pereira's attack on legalizing euthanasia or assisted suicide: smoke and mirrors
J Downie 1, K Chambaere, J L Bernheim

Erratum in
  • Curr Oncol. 2012 Jun;19(3):e227
Abstract
Objective: To review the empirical claims made in: Pereira J. Legalizing euthanasia or assisted suicide: the illusion of safeguards and controls. Curr Oncol 2011;18:e38-45.
Design: We collected all of the empirical claims made by Jose Pereira in "Legalizing euthanasia or assisted suicide: the illusion of safeguards and controls." We then collected all reference sources provided for those claims. We compared the claims with the sources (where sources were provided) and evaluated the level of support, if any, the sources provide for the claims. We also reviewed other available literature to assess the veracity of the empirical claims made in the paper. We then wrote the present paper using examples from the review.
Results: Pereira makes a number of factual statements without providing any sources. Pereira also makes a number of factual statements with sources, where the sources do not, in fact, provide support for the statements he made. Pereira also makes a number of false statements about the law and practice in jurisdictions that have legalized euthanasia or assisted suicide.
Conclusions: Pereira's conclusions are not supported by the evidence he provided. His paper should not be given any credence in the public policy debate about the legal status of assisted suicide and euthanasia in Canada and around the world.
i am jack's complete lack of surprise.
 

formby002

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Pereira's attack on legalizing euthanasia or assisted suicide: smoke and mirrors
J Downie 1, K Chambaere, J L Bernheim

Erratum in
  • Curr Oncol. 2012 Jun;19(3):e227
Abstract
Objective: To review the empirical claims made in: Pereira J. Legalizing euthanasia or assisted suicide: the illusion of safeguards and controls. Curr Oncol 2011;18:e38-45.
Design: We collected all of the empirical claims made by Jose Pereira in "Legalizing euthanasia or assisted suicide: the illusion of safeguards and controls." We then collected all reference sources provided for those claims. We compared the claims with the sources (where sources were provided) and evaluated the level of support, if any, the sources provide for the claims. We also reviewed other available literature to assess the veracity of the empirical claims made in the paper. We then wrote the present paper using examples from the review.
Results: Pereira makes a number of factual statements without providing any sources. Pereira also makes a number of factual statements with sources, where the sources do not, in fact, provide support for the statements he made. Pereira also makes a number of false statements about the law and practice in jurisdictions that have legalized euthanasia or assisted suicide.
Conclusions: Pereira's conclusions are not supported by the evidence he provided. His paper should not be given any credence in the public policy debate about the legal status of assisted suicide and euthanasia in Canada and around the world.

Do these journals no longer believe in peer review.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Maybe negotiations will go faster if the EU people fly to some virus ridden part of Britain.

Like a reverse of the church meeting between Chamberlain and Hitler.

Once again the continental system Europeans have misunderstood the British character, it's resolve and stoic tendencies.

All they've done is galvanized the resistance and resolve to strike out without the Albatross of Brussels and the EU diktats.

They can laugh all they want, the more they try to tighten the grip and try to make a lesson out of the UK, the more they reveal their vicious and vindictive lack of heart.

The Brits will break out and shame the EU.
 

Kingstonian

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The Daily Mail is just click bait sensationalism. They have to be to exist outside of a paywall.

The language being used by Ursula who increasingly would benefit from Botox and Fillers, is not a good advert of benign intentions of the EU.
The Daily Express is even worse for click bait. Articles to target both Leave and Remain fears and hopes. ‘Experts’ who turn out to be little known academics.

As for Ursula, she is looking fine for her age. She has had seven kids too. She is in far better shape than Frau Merkel or Mrs. May.
 

Kingstonian

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Once again the continental system Europeans have misunderstood the British character, it's resolve and stoic tendencies.

All they've done is galvanized the resistance and resolve to strike out without the Albatross of Brussels and the EU diktats.

They can laugh all they want, the more they try to tighten the grip and try to make a lesson out of the UK, the more they reveal their vicious and vindictive lack of heart.

The Brits will break out and shame the EU.
There is merit in Macron’s idea of letting it go to WTO arrangements.

Neither side loses face.

Macron believes the new circumstances will encourage a British return to the EU. Many Britons believe they will be free at last, without any footnotes in agreements that can hinder the actions of a sovereign nation.

I don’t know how things will pan out for January next year. I have no inside information.
 

sirloin

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The Daily Mail is just click bait sensationalism. They have to be to exist outside of a paywall.

The language being used by Ursula who increasingly would benefit from Botox and Fillers, is not a good advert of benign intentions of the EU.
My takeaway was that the average Daily Mail reader, is most likely not very aware, what goods - outside of butter and bordeaux - the UK imports.
But whatever.
 

Kingstonian

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Terrifying? Not really, more Remainer propaganda i.e. ''A former MEP with contacts...''

That is, not current or with viable sources.

He made a crack about someone being French? Utter BS.

These people don't work at that level. Ever.
Tweet from the weirdo ‘comedy’ actor. Just look at the hooter on him.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Tweet from the weirdo ‘comedy’ actor. Just look at the hooter on him.

I'm looking at the Twitter feed now. Pure Remainer hysteria.

We're leaving so have a cup of tea love and calm down.

Don't worry, you have agent Pimpernel Smith working for you deep in the heart of the EU setting up the underground railway for when we resident Brits get incarcerated in internment camps.
 

güero

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21112017_macron_merkel.jpg
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Let’s see the detail first. If it was WTO you could unequivocally make the statement.

A good song though. Dubliners version definitive. Wolfe Tones only got played after Dubliners stopped singing rebel songs.

We'll see, but at this stage, it looks like the Brexit done!

The response from the Remainers and Guardian readership is a delight to behold.
Not quite the 2020 Farage, who seems to have become an ambassador for Cordings. Next he'll be doing the Tweed Run with Graham Coxon.
 

Kingstonian

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I am reserving judgement on Brexit. They could not even correctly state the number of pages in the document.

Two thousand pages was the number initially touted. Then it was down to 1250. The Daily Fail even mentioned 500 pages - in the same edition as the 1250 page number was quoted.


500 pages long… the historic Brexit deal that has set Britain free from the EU: We've digested it, so you don't have to!​



The standard articles also include

Farage says the war is over.

The EU team look glum

Boris says Brexiteers will love the deal.

So that’s alright then.
 

sirloin

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Since the EU had the best hand going in, my guess is, it will favor the block - but not too much. Game is not done well, if the opponent is humiliated.

On the fishing. In all honesty I find it unsustainable, that we in DEN base a sector so heavily on stock, fished in foreign waters.
 

Fwiffo

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Is there a transition period for the qualifications thing? It would be somewhat stupid if you are a British dentist and then over night you lose your practice or your profession until you apply and get your credentials recognised (again).
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Since the EU had the best hand going in, my guess is, it will favor the block - but not too much. Game is not done well, if the opponent is humiliated.

On the fishing. In all honesty I find it unsustainable, that we in DEN base a sector so heavily on stock, fished in foreign waters.
The Brits gave up a lot of their fisheries didn't they? Lost a lot, they also tried to shut down much of the chemical industries at the time of joining. ICI told the Brits government to go and get stuffed and they would fight them in the courts being a private enterprise.
Is there a transition period for the qualifications thing? It would be somewhat stupid if you are a British dentist and then over night you lose your practice or your profession until you apply and get your credentials recognised (again).
Can't speak for the medical professions, but in my industry, the international recognized and licensed credentials are all USA and UK led. Brexit will not change that. The clients are global and not EU centric. The EU equivalents are well known to be almost at the diploma mill level, if they exist at all.
 

Fwiffo

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I meant more for a lawyer or medical or accountant. I assume those people can find jobs across borders.
 

fxh

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Is there a transition period for the qualifications thing? It would be somewhat stupid if you are a British dentist and then over night you lose your practice or your profession until you apply and get your credentials recognised (again).
Even here in Oz its a bit different between states for many professions
 
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