The All-Inclusive Shoe & Boot Thread

walker

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I dunno much about them but I'm pretty sure that Dr Martens make calf leather boots. All I ever see here are the binder/split leather ones. Anyone got a clue?
alright, doc martens is licensing his soles to boot companies. this might be another route.

fwiw, I thrifted a pair from an local work-boot company and I assume there are other international options available.
 

fxh

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alright, doc martens is licensing his soles to boot companies. this might be another route.

fwiw, I thrifted a pair from an local work-boot company and I assume there are other international options available.
Interesting. Part of my interest was trying to convince a few young kids who wear Docs to go with nice leather, but it seems too complicated for anyone except tragics like us.

And , when I was in uk I tried on a pair of nice DM chukkas/monkey boots that I liked with air sole. Now I can’t even remember what they were called or find then online.
 

walker

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Interesting. Part of my interest was trying to convince a few young kids who wear Docs to go with nice leather, but it seems too complicated for anyone except tragics like us.
ah, alright, exactly like the alden enthusiasts, who neglect the fact that the construction of their shoos/boots consists mainly of assembled spare-parts "made in china". been there, done that ..., what a fwocking disgrace, seriously.
 

Dropbear

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Bakers’ posted more pics of their new horse hide bounty hunters. I’m not a fan of the soft toe that seems popular now. I’m more concerned by that toe turn-up.

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Journeyman

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^Agree. If it wasn't for the squashed, turned up toe, those boots would look really nice (although that line of double stitching does look slightly wonky below the eyelets).
 

Dropbear

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My Dayton’s came back. I had the torn pull-tab replaced and reinforced with a thin strip of webbing and also sized up a half size. Excellent service, all free and no qualms about the additional work.

They are certainly sleeker and more office appropriate than the Bounty Hunters, though I’ll still give the latter the edge in comfort (probably down to the arch ease).

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fxh

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Tough as old boots: a Thames skeleton's durable footwear
Archaeologists say man who died 500 years ago may have been a mudlark or fisherman
Esther Addley
Tue 4 Dec 2018 11.01 AEDT
The remains of medieval leather boots, which were ‘not fashionable at all’ but merely practical, archaeologists say. Photograph: MOLA Headland Infrastructure

He was found lying on his front, head twisted to the side. One arm was bent above his head, suggesting he had fallen – or perhaps had been pushed – to his death in the river more than five centuries ago.
But aside from his puzzling position, the skeleton discovered this year near the shore of the Thames in London was notable for another, very particular reason. Though his clothes had long since decayed, on the man’s feet were a pair of remarkably well preserved – and extremely rare – knee-high leather boots. Might they hold clues, archaeologists wondered, to who the man was and, just possibly, how he died?
The mystery of the man in the medieval wellies was uncovered in Bermondsey by archaeologists working on the Thames Tideway tunnel, the so-called “super-sewer” currently being built to update the capital’s Victorian sewage network.

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The boots during the conservation process. Photograph: MOLA Headland Infrastructure
It’s not unusual to find bodies on the foreshore, but the style and preservation of the man’s footwear, made of leather “quarters” stitched together with waxed flax thread, is exceptional, say archaeologists.
“Leather can be very well preserved in London, especially if it’s found in a ditch that would have been full of water, or near the riverfront,” said Beth Richardson, a finds specialist for the archaeological team from Mola Headland Infrastructure. In the absence of any metalwork or other dating evidence, the style of the boots – unheeled, with a single, flat sole reinforced with “clump soles” at the front and back – dated the skeleton to the late 1400s or early 1500s at the latest.

“But what is unusual about these boots is that we never find high boots like this – they are always shoes or ankle boots,” Richardson said. “High boots are just not very common throughout medieval times, and actually [during] Tudor times and the 17th century as well. If you look at pictures or illuminated manuscripts or portraits, very few people are wearing boots.”

The fact that they reach the knee makes it likely the boots were waders, experts think, making it possible the man worked in or around the river as a dock worker, mudlark or fisherman. Mariners of the time were known to wear long boots, according to Richardson, as evidenced by the large number found on the wreck of the Tudor warship the Mary Rose.
And like their modern-day welly-boot equivalent, they are nothing fancy. “These were very simple boots,” says Richardson. They are not fashionable at all, they haven’t got buckles or anything like that – they are just practical, everyday boots.” Conservation work to preserve the leather is still ongoing, and there is no immediate plan to put the boots on display.
Plant matter found inside the boots is yet to be analysed, but the archaeologists suspect it was a lining of moss that had been added to keep the man’s feet warm as he waded.
Even without his distinctive footwear, however, there are clues to his identity. Evidence of extensive degenerative joint disease along his spine and left hip joint show he lived a physical life and would have suffered pain every day, according to Niamh Carty, an osteologist. Though she could not rule out that he was younger than 35, she believes he was probably much older.


In addition, the man has distinctive grooves in his teeth, “a possible indication of pulling some sort of material over the biting surface of the teeth or holding an object in the teeth for prolonged periods of time,” said Carty. One possibility is that he was pulling rope between his teeth, as a fisherman might.
As for how the man came to die, we will never know for sure, but there is no evidence of foul play, according to the archaeologists.
“He may have been working in the river and the tide got too much for him, he may have fallen over, he may have been tired,” Richardson said. “He may have had too much to drink. We really don’t know.”
 

Dropbear

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how they feeling in comparison to the white's?
Feeling very comfortable. Very difficult to compare the two, but if I had to find difference I’d say the Dayton’s were a little stiffer to begin with and the Whites just felt weird at first (it takes a few days to get used to the arch ease). Both very comfortable.
 

Rambo

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Feeling very comfortable. Very difficult to compare the two, but if I had to find difference I’d say the Dayton’s were a little stiffer to begin with and the Whites just felt weird at first (it takes a few days to get used to the arch ease). Both very comfortable.
i meant more in an arch ease vs. non-arch ease scenario. which do you think you'd pick?
 

The Shooman

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My 30 year old R.M.Williams boots.

This was back in the day before the company was still owned by the family. This was back in the day when they used good leathers and the boots were much more skillfully made.

Notice the close cut waist bevelled waist of the boot, and nice and plump too (so much more work needed to make a boot like this). See....they had the skilled makers who could do such things and put the time into doing it. Now the production of the boots has massively increased and the workers are not trained to do the fine details of the boots anymore. Cost cutting.
RMW - 25 years old 1.jpg
RMW - 25 years old 4.jpg



These days the bushman boots are pale imitations of their former glory. No fancy craftsmans work anymore. No plump waists actually designed for the aussie bush. No close cut waist. Just a run of the mill `plane jane' factory boot where lots of workers are trained in the basic skills and no more. All of the boots are very mass produced now, and quite ugly actually. Edward Green is miles ahead in workmanship and design and last shapes.
RMW bushman puny boot.jpg


No matter what, RMW need to keep their prices low because few want to pay over $500 for a boot, so cost cuts have been made. None-the-less, the high up insiders tell me that RMW has perhaps the most unique shoe market in the world because no other shoe history compares to RMW. Why? Because our boots trade largely on the niche of the aussie bushman's boot, so we don't have to compete on price against other brands. People will ALWAYS buy the RMW boots based on the aussie outback image, and this will ensure the boots will NEVER EVER be made in China and other places. While most other boots go out of business or go offshore, RMW is expanding like never before paying high aussie wages more than twice the U.K rate.

Edward Green and others have got nothing on RMW when it comes to market identity. We have a true niche' market that the world loves. We never have to compete with any other shoe brand on price.
 
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fxh

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haha shooey - mine are the same and nearly 40 years old.

I have both with cuban heels and a brown and black pair. But my black pair are Santa Fe - whats the toe on your black ones. I must get them out and tickle them up. I feel a bit funny in cuban heels these days

I've also got 2 x pairs only year or two old. Flat heels - one brown suede and one brown leather Craftsman. So 4 pairs of RMs. Oh and one pair of suede model chunky chukkas that were a trial model picked up from factory in Adelaide
 

Dropbear

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I have three pairs of Craftsman from about ten years ago and some Gardeners as well. Before LV bought them out, back when they were about $200 a pair (and that seemed exorbitant). They are nice boots for blokes not into dress shoes or seeking something more masculine.

I wish they could bridge the work boot and dress boot divide better, with a nicer, more refined, leather on a last less blobby than the Gsrneder but with a sole up to walking a few k’s.
 

The Shooman

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I have various pairs of RMW somewhere in my closet, but no idea where they are except for a special order chukka boot. I also have classic craftsman model etc. I ended up getting custom made-to-measure RMW lookalike boots in better leather from the long gone workshop called `medal boots' (last of the famous Fitzroy bootmakers in Melbourne).

I really appreciate what RMW does and will always support what they do in my heart. I think they are a fantastic company and really understand their market these days, but it wasn't always like that. When Reg first sold the company a pack of wolves (office kids in management straight from university) started working for the company as consultants to bootmaking in order to cut costs. They started to make suggestions to take loops off clothing and to stop using mutton fat on the boots etc. Soon the bushman started complaining that the clothing/boots so good was no longer any good. A lot of aussie bush blokes complained and stopped using RMW boots and clothing. This was going to spell the end of RMW because once the bushman image was gone RMW would surely fail. Soon Reggy took over the company again and sacked the idiots in the office and put the loops back on the clothes and the mutton fat back on the boots, and soon everything was fixed just how Reg always had it. See...bushman want loops on their clothes to hang various tools when they are in the bush while they are busy with their hands, and they want mutton fat on their boots because that was the only thing stopping them from squeeking. See...Reg knew the old bushman and made a product specially for their unique aussie bush needs. These kids in the office had NO CLUE about the bushman's needs and destroyed all of it in the short time in the name of cost cutting.
 
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The Shooman

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I notice the RMW boots have such blocky heels and uninspiring soles. It makes it so easy for people to be trained without needing years of experience on the grinding machines. Look at how quaint the sole and heel work is on these alligator boots. Very uninspiring and certainly a big reason why l would never buy such boots, and the lasts....not so great either as l said earlier. Very basic sole and heel work here!....notice how far the heel sticks out from the upper....one doesn't have to be too careful not to damage the upper because it sticks out so much. Also, a quaint slab of sole leather just sticked on without any lovely features...just as quaint and basic as it gets.

RMW alligator.png RMW alligator 2.jpg


The bushman models with the brass screwed soles are a different beast. It takes more skill because the heel and sole are closer to the upper,so the machinists needs to take more care finishing these boots with the machine. None-the-less, the brass screwed soles is a dubious construction and certainly not as good as the goodyear welted boots. The brass screws is a real cost cutting measure that negatively effects the construction of the boots perhaps more than any other construction technique. Why? Because it quickly damages the insole and outsole and the doesn't expand to keep moisture out. Before too long those boots will leak and they can mold. The good thing is that they can be repaired easier than goodyear welted boots. On the other hand, goodyear welted is no angel either...while they can last a long time with no problems, sometimes certain things can go wrong that make it impossible to repair under certain circumstances. With cost cutting constructions you get what you pay for.

Brass screwed soles of my custom boots. I still have a spare unworn pair in my closet, a nice tan pair.
Medal boots 3.jpg
 

fxh

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Shooey - way back - both Ms fxh and myself each had pairs of motor bike boots custom made by Tony the Medal bloke in Gertrude Street in early 70s.

They zipped up over the calf and then had huge press studs on a flap that covered the zip. Lasted forever - I gave mine away to a real bike rider. I think Ms still had hers until a while back.

He retired form the shop but in around 2006 opened up at the back just doing a few jobs but retired all together around 2011. I had heard from a bike bloke that he was doing repairs only at the rear a few days a week just a few years ago - 2016.
 

The Shooman

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Shooey - way back - both Ms fxh and myself each had pairs of motor bike boots custom made by Tony the Medal bloke in Gertrude Street in early 70s.

They zipped up over the calf and then had huge press studs on a flap that covered the zip. Lasted forever - I gave mine away to a real bike rider. I think Ms still had hers until a while back.
Yeah, my auntie and her bikie husband had their motorcycle boots made by Tony also. Tough as old boots and virtually indestructable.

fxh said:
He retired form the shop but in around 2006 opened up at the back just doing a few jobs but retired all together around 2011. I had heard from a bike bloke that he was doing repairs only at the rear a few days a week just a few years ago - 2016.
Yeah, his son owns the front of the shop as a computer shop while Tony worked out back with boots. I never knew he was still doing repairs out back, but l did know he was still doing some work and getting boots restitched at a certain cobbler.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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I notice the RMW boots have such blocky heels and uninspiring soles. It makes it so easy for people to be trained without needing years of experience on the grinding machines. Look at how quaint the sole and heel work is on these alligator boots. Very uninspiring and certainly a big reason why l would never buy such boots, and the lasts....not so great either as l said earlier. Very basic sole and heel work here!....notice how far the heel sticks out from the upper....one doesn't have to be too careful not to damage the upper because it sticks out so much. Also, a quaint slab of sole leather just sticked on without any lovely features...just as quaint and basic as it gets.

View attachment 31315 View attachment 31316


The bushman models with the brass screwed soles are a different beast. It takes more skill because the heel and sole are closer to the upper,so the machinists needs to take more care finishing these boots with the machine. None-the-less, the brass screwed soles is a dubious construction and certainly not as good as the goodyear welted boots. The brass screws is a real cost cutting measure that negatively effects the construction of the boots perhaps more than any other construction technique. Why? Because it quickly damages the insole and outsole and the doesn't expand to keep moisture out. Before too long those boots will leak and they can mold. The good thing is that they can be repaired easier than goodyear welted boots. On the other hand, goodyear welted is no angel either...while they can last a long time with no problems, sometimes certain things can go wrong that make it impossible to repair under certain circumstances. With cost cutting constructions you get what you pay for.

Brass screwed soles of my custom boots. I still have a spare unworn pair in my closet, a nice tan pair.
View attachment 31317
What's the cost of those alligator Chelsea's?
 

The Shooman

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What's the cost of those alligator Chelsea's?
When l looked 3 - 4 years ago they were $4,000. It's a good price with decent crocadile, but if l am going croc in a high price range l am going to pay extra to get the boot made just right. For example, if l am going alligator l am going to do something like G&G and have all the bells and whistles and something that looks great on the foot, or even more likely, Cleverley bespoke alligator shoes. I am not going to pay big bucks for nice croc on an ordinary looking boot with no bells and whistles. Even paying big bucks for croc/alligator on goodyear welted footwear is a no no for me. If l am doin' it l am doin' it all the way!
 

The Shooman

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Who makes a good mid range (goodyear) Chelsea these days Shooey?
Definitely not Camina or C&J benchgrade (the single brick house). You'd have to go the double brick house build made with good leather, so maybe a C&J handgrade or the Church's benchgrade made to the old standards (not the modern goodyear Church's in cheap leathers, new lasts and flimsy built shoes that skimp on inner leather in the making). Basically a really decent midend English brand that looks great and well built inside to go the distance and keep it's shape well. In other words, to buy a good midend brand that looks great and is built like the highend goodyear shoes with plenty of leather inside the side area near the waist and under the shoe near the waist to keep it sturdy and strong. I have an old Grenson Masterpiece chelsea and it is a beauty...top leather and blows the RMW out of the water. Money is never wasted on a good shoo imo.
 

The Shooman

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R M Williams goodyear boots = flimsy and not built like the real good stuff. A single brick house. Just a middle tier of the mid range shoes. Not a good midend boot and not a bad midend boot, just a so so midend boot.

C&J benchgrade = single brick house

Camina = single brick house

Church's modern lasts = single brick house

Church's traditional shoes = double brick house

Johnny Lobb and EG etc = double brick house.


Double brick house === more handwork inside shoes (more cut pieces of leather to be put inside the shoe to reinforce it) and holds up better over time and more sturdy.

I'll never forget the post Leatherman made years ago when the C&J salesman stated the obvious, he said that the Church's were better made shoes than the C&J benchgrade because more materials went into the making of the shoes so they held up better. And of course it could only have been that way, the old Church's were made like the high end goodyear shoes, they were made to last. Sadly many of the new church's are not that way.

If your gonna get a boot, get a good one!
 
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sirloin

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I was about to suggest C&J in my initial post. Got a few pairs of shoos and boots from them, and.. it is just easy to go there, but not 100% satisfying if I am honest. Want something else to wear for the long run. No use in buying, if the magic fades away.
My Vass got that little extra, you know. EG have never got my blood pumping, for some reason.
Have been looking at J.M. Weston. Looked at some of their classic pairs in Paris, a couple of months ago - the loafer, demi-chasse, jodhpur and I had totally forgot, their Chelsea. All seemed very nice.
 

The Shooman

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I was about to suggest C&J in my initial post. Got a few pairs of shoos and boots from them, and.. it is just easy to go there, but not 100% satisfying if I am honest. Want something else to wear for the long run. No use in buying, if the magic fades away.
My Vass got that little extra, you know. EG have never got my blood pumping, for some reason.
Have been looking at J.M. Weston. Looked at some of their classic pairs in Paris, a couple of months ago - the loafer, demi-chasse, jodhpur and I had totally forgot, their Chelsea. All seemed very nice.

Definitely got to get a shoe that gets the blood pumping, definitely spending extra if that's what it takes.

* I love John Lobb for the elegance, unique rich colours and the patterns (something that other top rtw doesn't do as well imo).
* I love Edward Green for the beautifully made shoes with all the details and lovely antiquing. I have one EG that is a medium brown that looks like antique wood, and it is STUNNING. It has improved with age. Wish l could post pics of it.
* I love Vass for the grand shoe wearing experience. It is sturdy and manly and they can make classics which makes wearing Vass the ultimate for me. It's always the greatest treat to wear them. If l only had one make of shoos to choose from it would be Vass or Santoni bentivegna constructed shoos.
* I love the G&G, those are really pretty boys and are so comfortable with all the bells and whistles, but they don't float my boat like the EG and Lobb.
* I love the old Church's too. They are not pretty or elegant, but they are great because they are a no nonsense manly shoe, and the old types are well built inside.


Btw, here is a very good video worth watching.
 

The Shooman

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This is a wonderful video. Why? Because it talks about how difficult it is to work with top quality leather outsoles and it shows how he closes the channel of the outsole and talks about various techniques he uses. All the video is good, but gets extra interesting after 20 minutes. At 30 minutes Jim just talks and talks as he is working and it makes for some real great youtube moments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRFRfoLFT-Q&t=227s

I've got to give Kirby credit where credit is due. He is totally tearing it up on youtube and getting a good business following too l assume. He has filled a massive gap in the `shoo world' with these videos. He has hit the nail right on the head.
 
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The Ernesto

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Definitely got to get a shoe that gets the blood pumping, definitely spending extra if that's what it takes.

* I love John Lobb for the elegance, unique rich colours and the patterns (something that other top rtw doesn't do as well imo).
* I love Edward Green for the beautifully made shoes with all the details and lovely antiquing. I have one EG that is a medium brown that looks like antique wood, and it is STUNNING. It has improved with age. Wish l could post pics of it.
* I love Vass for the grand shoe wearing experience. It is sturdy and manly and they can make classics which makes wearing Vass the ultimate for me. It's always the greatest treat to wear them. If l only had one make of shoos to choose from it would be Vass or Santoni bentivegna constructed shoos.
* I love the G&G, those are really pretty boys and are so comfortable with all the bells and whistles, but they don't float my boat like the EG and Lobb.
* I love the old Church's too. They are not pretty or elegant, but they are great because they are a no nonsense manly shoe, and the old types are well built inside.


Btw, here is a very good video worth watching.
No blood pumping for Cleverley? Too prosaic?
 

The Shooman

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No blood pumping for Cleverley? Too prosaic?
Anthony Cleverley is in a whole different league from all the other English rtw shoes. The `last' shape is a thing of genius with nothing else that compares in the rtw shoo world. It took 3 years to design that last. G&G and EG rtw don't even come close. The AC last is one of exceptional elegance, and the only two other lasts that can approach it is the Lobb 7,000 and 8,000 lasts, but the AC chisel toe is the clear winner. The AC is magic on the feet from 6 feet away, it makes the foot look STUNNING!!!! It has that classic Cleverley bespoke elegance. Anthony Cleverley will always be my favourite of them all because it is one of a kind in rtw. Nothing in the world can touch that masterly design imo. The biggest issue is that it is only made for certain feet, and so is the 7,000 and 8,000 last for Lobb, it is because those lasts are so elegant and wouldn't be suitable for many. The Edward Green and G&G lasts are more suitable for mere mortal feet.

I don't talk about Anthony Cleverley much when talking about English shoos because it is rare and very very special. Even the Cleverley bespokes are super elegant...a whole different ballgame from Lobb London and various other bespokes. I was only looking at the Gaziano & Girling bespokes the other night online and admiring how much better the handwork was on my Cleverley bespokes...but then again Cleverley really went all out for me and did their best work possible, and it shows. That alligator pair is right up there with the best of Delos. I am not saying G&G can't make as good a pair, but makers have time constraints so perfection is rarely reached, but Cleverley took extra time for my pair because they knew l was the type of person it was worth doing it for, and they did reach perfection.

I wouldn't want anything else except Berluti bespoke. Cleverley are an amazing maker and l greatly admire their approach to last making especially, sheer genius!!! Wow, they really know how to do it.
 
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