The SF/AAAC/FNB trainwreck thread

Riva

New Member
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4
I'm both amazed and saddened by people who seem compelled to buy eight or ten watches, with each watch costing $4 - $5,000 and sometimes many multiples of that.
I appreciate your condolences. I think back of how many bespoke suits I could have made to get all those reps and likes at SF instead of getting those 70 watches. Then again seeing how Alan fared there probably not.
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
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2,483
foxandhound said:
Crompers, that bald headed pay-for-play bespoke bandit, looks positively tame by comparison.
:rofl:


Journeyman said:
There's certainly been individuals with that sort of behaviour on SF from time to time (and I think that most people on SF, including myself, are guilty of it to some extent). Some people stick with one type of thing, while others cycle through various clothing-related obsessions - business clothing; business shoes; casual/streetwear clothing; sneakers; watches and more.
It can be quite shocking. I was reading all the umbrella threads the other week and some guys are even addicted to highend umbrellas and have a large collection of them. The threads were entertaining and they were starting to have me dreaming of owning multiple umbrellas, but when l got my first world class umbrella l looked at it for 10 seconds, got bored with it and put it behind the door. Umbrellas can be nice, but nothing to get excited about, but shoos and cashmere jumpers....now that is a different story.



Journeyman said:
At least shoes aren't *that* bad
That depends. I have seriously considered a number of times going to the top and start the habit of buying $10,000 pairs of Berluti bespoke. Would they be worth it? You bet they would be, but it is a mighty expensive habit to have, and not a sensible way to spend money despite the immense satisfaction l would get. Then there was the deepest of rabbit holes with the $36,000 Lattanzi shoo habit; l seriously thought about it for 10 seconds and then said "nah...far too crazy" and then forgot about it. Probably well worth it for the satisfaction l would get, but a terrible waste of money. So yes, shoes can be a very expensive habit in the wrong hands, you can blow a fortune quickly when a shoo addict is fulfilling his dreams at the highest level, it can be just as expensive as a watch habit, especially if l made my dreams come true...alligator this and alligator that by Lattanzi and Lobb etc. Even if you were Trump, you could blow a fortune really fast with a shooman's dreams.

Journeyman said:
It's also amazing how quickly people will graduate from buying Loake or Allen Edmonds - and thinking that they're quite expensive - to buying Edward Green or John Lobb Paris shoes and then talking about the merits of high-end shoes.
This is the thing which amazes me. So few men were into shoes 25 years ago, now it seems many men are into them. The internet. I aspired for years to own the good ones, long before the internet was invested. True shooman were few and far between....few men ever wanted the adventure of owning the good ones, but the men who did were hungry and made the sacrifice.

I laugh my head off when these guys get addicted to shoos, and l laugh when they try to quit cold turkey and promise not to buy anymore. I've been telling myself for 20 years "just one more shoo and l will quit". NEVER HAPPENS. I told myself I would quit buying Scottish cashmere jumpers 60 jumpers ago. Funny enough though, l've had my days. I'm over it all now, l don't see the point anymore. I don't get the thrill anymore. Materialism bores me now, but l see all these young bucks, they are chasing the thrill...l know the feeling, i've been there. Shoos are very hard to resist and they are very addictive....too easy to keep buying them.

I am glad l never started a shoo collection these days as a young bloke. The internet would have been my ruin. I was climbing the shoo ladder and l was hungry as heck to climb that ladder, and l would have bought those suckers one after another as a young bloke. I would have had less control and bought all the expensive ones. Luckily for me we didn't have all these $$$$ shoos that we see now days. No wonder young blokes are blowing fortunes...they are super hungry to climb that ladder, and everything is at their finger tips. They don't do drugs these days, they do SHOOS, and some young blokes do bespokes shoos. S.F is the ruin of many blokes l imagine.
 

Mattrick

Well-Known Member
Messages
95
Shooman, have you shared photographs of your shoecollection? It sounds like it would be a sight to behold. How many pairs do you have?
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
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2,483
Great White Snark said:
One think that keeps me from falling in is knowledge of the law of diminishing returns. It’s fine to own or aspire to having some nice things around you which bring you enjoyment, but are those $1500 Edward Greens REALLY sooooo much better than the $500 Carminas?
Some men want to have great enjoyment of very nice things, and the enjoyment they get far outweighs any enjoyment they would get of something less. I know a number of men who wore Camina and soon woke up that they were not living the shoe dream, they quickly stopped wearing them. See...that is what it is all about, it is about living the dream in the world of shoos. The Japanese do it, aussie shoomen do it, and other blokes do it too...because they get it!...and they know what it is all about. Would l wear Camina? No! Because it is not living the dream, it is a shoo made for many men who don't belong in the higher echelons of the shoo world.

Same with jumpers. Is it a regular Johnston of Elgin cashmere or Hermes made-in-Scotland? Some men want to live the dream so they only want the best. Why do they want the best? Because they want to experience what it is like. Soon you can't settle for anything less.

Journeyman said:
Of course not. And to the person on the subway or in the restaurant they wouldn’t know the difference anyway. How much value did you get from the extra $1000 you spent?
Some men get immense satisfaction from that extra 1k, that's why they keep on doing it, they can't go back. When a shooman comes part of the highend shoo world, his life changes forever. It is a world few men get to experience, but when a man enters that world he KNOWS what it is all about, he knows the secrets. It's a world that is earned, it is a world that not just any man can enter...and it comes with sacrifice, so only those who are truly worthy will be allowed to come in. None-the-less, even those undeserving have come in, but they are not members of the highend shoo world because they don't know what it is all about; that is the difference!

I remember l made a video talking about this in Tom Cruise style like in this video. I never released it. Maybe one day l will.
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
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2,483
Shooman, have you shared photographs of your shoecollection? It sounds like it would be a sight to behold. How many pairs do you have?
In the triple figures, but collected over decades. Was never a crazy buyer, but still bought 20 pairs a year in multiple years, and some quiet years l may have bought 10, and really quiet years maybe just 5 pairs. They add up. I was always looking and on the hunt. In the early days a score was really treasured because `good ones' were hard to come buy. Not many blokes had goodyear welted shoes in Melbourne, only the really dedicated blokes had them. It was a really special shoo club in those days, some blokes have shoos in their blood and belong to a different breed of man.

Tried photographing them, but took all day to get them out and couldn't all fit in the photo. My collection is in many areas. I feel very fortunate to have them. No regrets at all. Would l like more pairs? You bet l would...I would like a thousand more pairs, even two thousands more pairs, but l would never be satisfied no matter how many l owned, but what is the point. I could buy shoos all day for the next 20 years and i'd still be chasing and on the hunt, so I know it's time to call it a day and quit while l am ahead so l can be at peace. Can't have a peaceful mind if one is on the hunt.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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5,009
I think you old codgers undererstimate the age of most who go down this consumerist rabbit hole. It's usually guys in their early 20s looking to dress better or family guys in their 30s who are bored and instead of going getting a hobby they get sucked into cordovan boots and before they know it drop 2k on a pair of EGs without ever having been fitted. Most have never made any money and now want instant gratification, for one that's the 5th Rolex, the 3rd bike or the 20th fountain pen. In your 50s you know that all that crap will just collect dust on some shelf but for them it's probably about the thrill of feeling something apart from their wife snoring next them watching Netflix, the old hunter and gatherer.

Still, 10k on shoes is hardly outlandish these days. That's what? 6 or 7 pairs of EGs? Maybe double as many Carminas? While you shouldn't liquidate your kid's college fund even a minor rotation of 5 or 6 pairs will set you back 3 or 4 thousand $ and unless you're eating spaghetti with ketchup for months it's fine.
When you're young you need to experience these things to know that you ain't missing anything special. It may well be right that you can answer all of life's answers close to one's own doorstep in your kitchen, but if you've never owned a Rolex, or Johnny Lobb Paris, or lived abroad long enough to experience exotic cultures, how do you know that these are not the answers? These are essential questions to get answers to.

In your 50s, or very near to 50 in my case, you know the essential is often invisible. Experience trumps things, but you still need a comfortable upper middle class income and lifestyle. You also are well aware that certain things you buy, like luxury watches, shoes, jackets and even shirts in a large enough rotation have potential to out live you. That gives a different perspective on life, compared to your 20s and early 30s.
 

Mattrick

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Messages
95
Shooman, I do understand where you're coming from. Once you've had, say, jackets with hand-stitched buttonholes, then a jacket with machine-made just seems piss poor. Those perfect-but-boring machine holes seem like glaring flaws spoiling the front of your jacket. The same goes for all of the other ways in which higher end stuff differs from the mediocre.

I'm just now really getting into shoes. I own or have owned shoes from John Lobb, Vass and others without really appreciating what I had. I couldn't spot the signs of a good shoe, but now I can and what has been seen cannot be unseen. For example, now I see an open channel as an ugly, gaping gash which, like gashes in general, should be covered from sight even when out of view.

Anyway, I get the impression that you've mainly collected shoes and cashmere, so perhaps you can take a proper wade into the ocean of tailoring.
 

The Shooman

A Pretty Face
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2,483
Shooman, I do understand where you're coming from. Once you've had, say, jackets with hand-stitched buttonholes, then a jacket with machine-made just seems piss poor. Those perfect-but-boring machine holes seem like glaring flaws spoiling the front of your jacket. The same goes for all of the other ways in which higher end stuff differs from the mediocre.

I'm just now really getting into shoes. I own or have owned shoes from John Lobb, Vass and others without really appreciating what I had. I couldn't spot the signs of a good shoe, but now I can and what has been seen cannot be unseen. For example, now I see an open channel as an ugly, gaping gash which, like gashes in general, should be covered from sight even when out of view.

Anyway, I get the impression that you've mainly collected shoes and cashmere, so perhaps you can take a proper wade into the ocean of tailoring.
I do tailoring too, but my rotation is small. Well paired essentials. I keep it in check because it could easily become a hard addiction. Custom and bespoke clothing is the most rewarding indulgence of all.
 
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Journeyman

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I appreciate your condolences. I think back of how many bespoke suits I could have made to get all those reps and likes at SF instead of getting those 70 watches. Then again seeing how Alan fared there probably not.
😛

Well, you're in a bit of a different category, as you're not (or certainly don't appear to be) tied to a job and a fortnightly wage.

It's one thing to buy multiple, expensive watches if you are wealthy. It's another thing entirely to spend $50 - $100,000 on watches when you're an office worker on a wage who needs to also pay for a car, house, retirement fund and so on.

I appreciate your eclectic tastes, and that you are willing to experiment. So many people on places like SF buy Rolex, Omega, Patek and a couple of other brands. That's due to a variety of reasons - snobbery, social signalling, advertising, Instagram and so on. I think it's also due to perceived value - when people don't actually have a lot of money, they'll buy things that (consciously or not) they perceive to be a store of value, hence the frequent discussions about resale value on watch fora.

It becomes really boring to see the same watches over and over again, and to hear the same discussions, time after time.

Although you've probably got some hideously expensive watches, I like the way you also buy cheaper watches from little-known brands, like that Scottish one with the enamel dials and various others.
 

Sprezzatura

Active Member
Messages
30
Can we also attach Dutch sf-member posts here? This is Tim Mureau. Used to be an active contributor to the Dutch forum. Big friends with Bernhard Roetzel I believe.

His facial hairgame seems to be on par with Dropbear Dropbear . No offense!

6F02ABDA-57FA-4D02-821E-A500A4B1F104.png
 

Kingstonian

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1,844
:rofl:




It can be quite shocking. I was reading all the umbrella threads the other week and some guys are even addicted to highend umbrellas and have a large collection of them. The threads were entertaining and they were starting to have me dreaming of owning multiple umbrellas, but when l got my first world class umbrella l looked at it for 10 seconds, got bored with it and put it behind the door. Umbrellas can be nice, but nothing to get excited about, but shoos and cashmere jumpers....now that is a different story.




That depends. I have seriously considered a number of times going to the top and start the habit of buying $10,000 pairs of Berluti bespoke. Would they be worth it? You bet they would be, but it is a mighty expensive habit to have, and not a sensible way to spend money despite the immense satisfaction l would get. Then there was the deepest of rabbit holes with the $36,000 Lattanzi shoo habit; l seriously thought about it for 10 seconds and then said "nah...far too crazy" and then forgot about it. Probably well worth it for the satisfaction l would get, but a terrible waste of money. So yes, shoes can be a very expensive habit in the wrong hands, you can blow a fortune quickly when a shoo addict is fulfilling his dreams at the highest level, it can be just as expensive as a watch habit, especially if l made my dreams come true...alligator this and alligator that by Lattanzi and Lobb etc. Even if you were Trump, you could blow a fortune really fast with a shooman's dreams.



This is the thing which amazes me. So few men were into shoes 25 years ago, now it seems many men are into them. The internet. I aspired for years to own the good ones, long before the internet was invested. True shooman were few and far between....few men ever wanted the adventure of owning the good ones, but the men who did were hungry and made the sacrifice.

I laugh my head off when these guys get addicted to shoos, and l laugh when they try to quit cold turkey and promise not to buy anymore. I've been telling myself for 20 years "just one more shoo and l will quit". NEVER HAPPENS. I told myself I would quit buying Scottish cashmere jumpers 60 jumpers ago. Funny enough though, l've had my days. I'm over it all now, l don't see the point anymore. I don't get the thrill anymore. Materialism bores me now, but l see all these young bucks, they are chasing the thrill...l know the feeling, i've been there. Shoos are very hard to resist and they are very addictive....too easy to keep buying them.

I am glad l never started a shoo collection these days as a young bloke. The internet would have been my ruin. I was climbing the shoo ladder and l was hungry as heck to climb that ladder, and l would have bought those suckers one after another as a young bloke. I would have had less control and bought all the expensive ones. Luckily for me we didn't have all these $$$$ shoos that we see now days. No wonder young blokes are blowing fortunes...they are super hungry to climb that ladder, and everything is at their finger tips. They don't do drugs these days, they do SHOOS, and some young blokes do bespokes shoos. S.F is the ruin of many blokes l imagine.
“True shooman were few and far between....few men ever wanted the adventure of owning the good ones, but the men who did were hungry and made the sacrifice.”

That’s a great line.

‘Ripping Yarns’ territory or a movie trailer for the new superhero ‘Shooman’. He is just an average chap but then he puts on a pair of his magic shoes and goes to the aid of the good people of Gotham City. Probably have to be an American though....
 
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Sprezzatura

Active Member
Messages
30
I'm glad that he's found a wife and wish them both happiness, health, wealth and above all a charmed life.

He wrote a few postings on his adventures at F.G. van den Heuvel and is also a big fan of Margaret Thatcher.
He seems happy. And indeed he’s a pretty decent writer. Have you also seen his pieces on mid level watches?
 

Pimpernel Smith

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5,009
He seems happy. And indeed he’s a pretty decent writer. Have you also seen his pieces on mid level watches?
No, please post. I haven't seen any of his stuff for several years, I thought he had disappeared off the sartorial forums. Not that I was looking for him.

I like it that he's overweight, over blown, likely has health/thyroid problems, is slightly camp in taste and he's still going for it.

That's the kind of person I admire more than someone with a chiseled chin and natural good looks and charisma.
 

Sprezzatura

Active Member
Messages
30
No, please post. I haven't seen any of his stuff for several years, I thought he had disappeared off the sartorial forums. Not that I was looking for him.

I like it that he's overweight, over blown, likely has health/thyroid problems, is slightly camp in taste and he's still going for it.

That's the kind of person I admire more than someone with a chiseled chin and natural good looks and charisma.
Curiously, he wasn’t overweight when he started posting on the fora. Look at the pictures that ASSHAT ASSHAT attached.

I’ll upload some of his journalism stuff later if I can still find it.
 

Journeyman

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So the current discussion over in the Bespoke thread involving past personalities on SF, AAAC, FNB and so on got me thinking about this thread.

Coincidentally, I was looking through a thread over on SF today and someone mentioned Grayson, which was a name that I hadn't heard for a long time (cue Ben Kenobi GIF).

So a quick search led to this article, written by Christian Chensvold of Ivy Style: http://www.dandyism.net/2006/12/12/fop-culture/

(I note that Jan Libourel Jan Libourel was mentioned in the article, too!)

Anyway, it had this to say about Grayson and about clothing fora such as SF:

When Marc Grayson brought his new girlfriend to his apartment, all she could say was “Oh, my”: Inside Grayson’s two-bedroom New York City pad were two walk-in closets overflowing with clothes, and the extra bedroom was full of commercial garment racks loaded with suits, sportcoats and slacks.

Grayson (his online username, not his real name) is an admittedly extreme example of the kind of clothes-obsessed coxcomb who frequents the men’s fashion forums. A 35-year-old businessman whose father also had a taste for finery, Grayson estimates that over the past 15 years he’s spent over $300,000 on 50 custom-made suits (some running $4,000 each), 50 more custom sportcoats, 40 pairs of high-end shoes, 100 neckties and 15 leather jackets he “bought on sale.”

And he’s not even rich: Some small investments provide him with the discretionary income necessary to indulge his love of bespoke apparel, Grayson says.

Grayson is a regular contributor at Film Noir Buff, having been banned from Style Forum and Ask Andy for what he says was criticizing the work of some well-known New York tailors. “I couldn’t dare talk about clothes with the outside world because I would be looked upon as being way too self-conscious and self-absorbed,” says Grayson, who often stops by his tailor just to touch the fabric swatches and imagine the possibilities.

But indulging his vice is increasingly giving Grayson pause for reflection. “It does bother me,” he says of the expense. “And I’ve been thinking about it with greater intensity, if it’s money that could have been better spent. It is almost an addiction.”

And that is the final function of online men’s clothing forums. For if they are information resources, support groups, surrogate fathers and debating clubs, they are also enablers of addiction. “If you stay on the forums, you stay focused on indulging in clothing,” says Grayson. “It’s like being a gambler and going into chat rooms talking about how you love to gamble. There’s very little discussion about the unattractiveness of being so self-centered.”

Somewhat wistfully, Grayson admits that the conventional view of fastidiously dressed men as vain and superficial may be entirely justified: “It is a completely self-absorbed state of mind we’re in on these forums.”


* * *

I do remember seeing some photos posted by Grayson back around 2004 or 2005. I remember that he had very sloping shoulders and that the cut of his suits didn't flatter him at all. Also, the walls of his apartment really needed a coat of paint!

Ultimately, he spent $300,000 on clothes that didn't flatter him, when he could have better spent that money on, amongst other things, painting his apartment.
 
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ASSHAT

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169
I remember this article by Chinsfold but dont recall seeing photos of Grayson himself. I remember seeing photos of a couple of jackets of his on hangars or laid our flat including a beautiful Russell tweed.
 

formby002

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Messages
244
I sometimes wonder what happened to Grayson. He was quite the curmudgeon at times...

He also had a side-kick who he fixed-up with his shirtmaker to have his suits made. His shirtmaker was originally a tailor IIRC.
 

ASSHAT

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169
I sometimes wonder what happened to Grayson. He was quite the curmudgeon at times...

He also had a side-kick who he fixed-up with his shirtmaker to have his suits made. His shirtmaker was originally a tailor IIRC.
Yes a chap with a Spanish sounding name, they both shared the same Roman shirt maker, who also made very Roman looking suits for this guy. He definitely posted photos of himself in these very continental looking suits.
 

formby002

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244
Yes a chap with a Spanish sounding name, they both shared the same Roman shirt maker, who also made very Roman looking suits for this guy. He definitely posted photos of himself in these very continental looking suits.
Cruz Diez. He could be curmudgeonly also. LOL.

Cruz did post pics of stuff he had made by the Roman-one, one of which IIRC was a large scale PoW London Lounge cloth.

The tailoring looked good, if, perhaps, a little stiff...Photos can mislead however.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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5,009
Dig it: ''$300,000 on 50 custom-made suits....''

That's the kind of status that a number of new comers and their allies or should it be affiliates on this site crave.

Can't stop laughing myself. Queue the dog turd likes.
 

ASSHAT

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Messages
169
Dig it: ''$300,000 on 50 custom-made suits....''

That's the kind of status that a number of new comers and their allies or should it be affiliates on this site crave.

Can't stop laughing myself. Queue the dog turd likes.
i agree completely. As this figure is over a 13 year period, and includes ties, sportcoats, suits, shoes and leather jackets, so 23k usd a year for all that gear, it does sound like a reasonable, if slightly high, sum for our big daddy newcomers to shoot for, of course with slight adjustments depending on their clothing needs, yearly income, and other expenses. Not everyone can be a big daddy, so they shouldn’t feel bad about that.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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5,009
They love their Big Daddy's in these here parts:





i agree completely. As this figure is over a 13 year period, and includes ties, sportcoats, suits, shoes and leather jackets, so 23k usd a year for all that gear, it does sound like a reasonable, if slightly high, sum for our big daddy newcomers to shoot for, of course with slight adjustments depending on their clothing needs, yearly income, and other expenses. Not everyone can be a big daddy, so they shouldn’t feel bad about that.
It states specifically on suits, does it not? But yes, it is interesting you consider newcomers should be aiming at the sum as reasonable as they work their way up the Big Daddy hierarchy. The nouveau riche.
 
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Lobbster

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172
Don't forget that these numbers are 14 years old. Going by price hikes in tailoring, shoemaking etc. it's easy to assume that 300k$ wouldn't get you half this stuff today or you'd have to pay at least twice as much.
 

ASSHAT

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169
But yes, it is interesting you consider newcomers should be aiming at the sum as reasonable as they work their way up the Big Daddy hierarchy. The nouveau riche.

it is interesting that you (and certain protected by the management members) fail to see that whole big daddy thing is just a little joke based on a certain legendary members posting style. Well perhaps its not so funny. But then you often bite at the traps.

Since it clearly agitates you, and i honestly love the posts of a certain legendary shoo man, perhaps after two whole days, it is time to retire it? Anyway just a matter of time before something else pushes you over the ledge.

Finally, while i can certainly appreciate old money’s gripe with the nouveau riche, when that gripe comes from the very middle of the middle class it reeks of typical class anxiety.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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5,009
A lot of continental types have never developed the same instinct towards freedom and democracy like the Brits have. Your history speaks for itself.

You can't quite grasp the concept that it is better to be a poor master than a rich servant.

The Brits are going and not for the reasons you state above. It's because of democracy and desire to be master of their own destiny.

it is interesting that you (and certain protected by the management members) fail to see that whole big daddy thing is just a little joke based on a certain legendary members posting style. Well perhaps its not so funny. But then you often bite at the traps.

Since it clearly agitates you, and i honestly love the posts of a certain legendary shoo man, perhaps after two whole days, it is time to retire it? Anyway just a matter of time before something else pushes you over the ledge.

Finally, while i can certainly appreciate old money’s gripe with the nouveau riche, when that gripe comes from the very middle of the middle class it reeks of typical class anxiety.
I'm not protected at all. As the management will tell you, they don't actually dig me at all.

No problem with the Big Daddy stuff, am I not too jesting?

It's your poised sartorial snobbery with your cod -it's only good if its exclusively expensive- that I consider rather vulgar and shallow. I also know with one person here, it's a completely fake online fantasy.

You state that you appreciate old money's gripe with the new rich, but then you state that you have a problem with that statement as it came from me. You have a problem with me personally, that's ad hominem. You also admit that you are trying to lay traps. Clearly you're a troll.

I don't have a problem with that, but I do suggest you recognize your own bias and that's not coming from a moral or noble position.
 

ASSHAT

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169
It's your poised sartorial snobbery with your cod -it's only good if its exclusively expensive- that I consider rather vulgar and shallow.
this is not something i have ever stated or implied in any serious matter. That fact that you interpret my posts this way speaks more about you than it does about me. There are only two things that i can be snobbish about and that is the fit/cut of ones clothes and perhaps the choice of cloth. I do think that most rtw suits and jackets look dreadful on all men regardless of their size. But I have never advocated the use of ultra expensive or famous tailors over the more reasonably priced local options. And I certainly wouldnt have any issue with someone who needed only five suits or none at all.

The rest of your post is the result of bad reading comprehension and deranged fantasies that I couldn’t even begin to address it in any serious fashion, so i’ll give you a pass on all that jive.
 
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