The SF/AAAC/FNB trainwreck thread

[Pimpernel Smith]

The rest of your post is the result of bad reading comprehension and deranged fantasies that I couldn’t even begin to address it in any serious fashion, so i’ll give you a pass on all that jive.

Please do.

 

[The Shooman]

So the current discussion over in the Bespoke thread involving past personalities on SF, AAAC, FNB and so on got me thinking about this thread.

Coincidentally, I was looking through a thread over on SF today and someone mentioned Grayson, which was a name that I hadn't heard for a long time (cue Ben Kenobi GIF).

So a quick search led to this article, written by Christian Chensvold of Ivy Style: http://www.dandyism.net/2006/12/12/fop-culture/

(I note that Jan Libourel was mentioned in the article, too!)

Anyway, it had this to say about Grayson and about clothing fora such as SF:

When Marc Grayson brought his new girlfriend to his apartment, all she could say was “Oh, my”: Inside Grayson’s two-bedroom New York City pad were two walk-in closets overflowing with clothes, and the extra bedroom was full of commercial garment racks loaded with suits, sportcoats and slacks.

Grayson (his online username, not his real name) is an admittedly extreme example of the kind of clothes-obsessed coxcomb who frequents the men’s fashion forums. A 35-year-old businessman whose father also had a taste for finery, Grayson estimates that over the past 15 years he’s spent over $300,000 on 50 custom-made suits (some running $4,000 each), 50 more custom sportcoats, 40 pairs of high-end shoes, 100 neckties and 15 leather jackets he “bought on sale.”

And he’s not even rich: Some small investments provide him with the discretionary income necessary to indulge his love of bespoke apparel, Grayson says.

Grayson is a regular contributor at Film Noir Buff, having been banned from Style Forum and Ask Andy for what he says was criticizing the work of some well-known New York tailors. “I couldn’t dare talk about clothes with the outside world because I would be looked upon as being way too self-conscious and self-absorbed,” says Grayson, who often stops by his tailor just to touch the fabric swatches and imagine the possibilities.

But indulging his vice is increasingly giving Grayson pause for reflection. “It does bother me,” he says of the expense. “And I’ve been thinking about it with greater intensity, if it’s money that could have been better spent. It is almost an addiction.”

And that is the final function of online men’s clothing forums. For if they are information resources, support groups, surrogate fathers and debating clubs, they are also enablers of addiction. “If you stay on the forums, you stay focused on indulging in clothing,” says Grayson. “It’s like being a gambler and going into chat rooms talking about how you love to gamble. There’s very little discussion about the unattractiveness of being so self-centered.”

Somewhat wistfully, Grayson admits that the conventional view of fastidiously dressed men as vain and superficial may be entirely justified: “It is a completely self-absorbed state of mind we’re in on these forums.”

* * *

I do remember seeing some photos posted by Grayson back around 2004 or 2005. I remember that he had very sloping shoulders and that the cut of his suits didn't flatter him at all. Also, the walls of his apartment really needed a coat of paint!

Ultimately, he spent $300,000 on clothes that didn't flatter him, when he could have better spent that money on, amongst other things, painting his apartment.

Grayson had everything and the best of everything, and l am sure the $300,000 amount quoted is vastly understated. Manton once estimated his suit spending being at $500,000 about 15 years ago, and that is only going from some of the admissions made about his addiction. He had ordered multiple suits from many of the big bespoke names (sometimes up to 6 bespoke suits at a time), had overcoats, leather jackets, trousers, multiple bespoke and rtw shoes etc etc. He had an endless supply of bespoke and highend clothes with racks busting from the weight of the clothes, and there is no way he only spent $300,000. More likely far in excess of that. He also ordered 25 highend bespoke shirts and other huge orders.

I do have a photo of Grayson in some of his suits from the old days, but l will not show anyone. He liked many very traditional medium grays with patterns of all sorts. One day he even posted himself in 50 of his bespoke Rapheal suits. He loved suits so much that he even wore them to the local dog show...pretty much wore a really traditional bespoke suit everyday. I was thinking about him the other day actually....wondering if he still fit in all those suits, hopefully he does.

Grayson was the John McEnroe of the clothing forums. If he got upset he'd poke you in the eye for starters, and then he would come out swinging. Was my favourite poster, l loved his enthusiasm.

Cruz Diez had nice taste and really knew his stuff, and he wouldn't suffer igents gladly. He'd give a bloke a good poke in the ribs if he needed it, but not in Grayson's league....Grayson would bust blokes in half and spit `em out and then beat his chest. I won't say anymore because if he reads this he might start roaring his head off.

 

[The Shooman]

Grayson estimates that over the past 15 years he’s spent over $300,000 on 50 custom-made suits (some running $4,000 each), 50 more custom sportcoats, 40 pairs of high-end shoes, 100 neckties and 15 leather jackets he “bought on sale.”

But we do know that is a lie because he once posted about how much stuff he had in 2003, and some of his numbers were far more than that. As l said, he greatly underestimated in that article how much stuff he really had. For eg, he had twice that many shoes.


The BIG Daddies on the net - the early years
Grayson was the first BIG daddy. Smoothjazz was the second of the BIG daddies closely followed by Ed Hayes, but Grayson was the big grand daddy of daddies, he had the presence and he ruled the roost in the early days, and everyone knew he was `the daddy'. When he talked everyone would listen. In the beginning he was the guy.

T4phage (phage-monster) was a big daddy too in the early days, and still is, but his pedigree isn't as pure as the old school big daddies because he has ego where-as the true big daddies take it all in their stride. He was one of the first daddies high up on the ladder in the early days. @Truth sounded like a big daddy too, but he wasn't in the league of those HUGE big daddies that were there in the beginning.

Gary Tok is one of the new big daddies, and he has played the role to very high levels. One would think he had been a daddy all his life.

I think we should start a thread called `History of the BIG daddies', and we can talk about all the BIG daddies on the clothing forums and how they shaped the forums. Those big daddies played a significant role in shaping the forums and the role igents would play to this very day. Style forum wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't for the BIG daddies.

 

[doghouse]

I do have a photo of Grayson in some of his suits from the old days, but l will not show anyone.

You are killing us Shoeey

 

[ballmouse]

How does that English chap Bown who had his own website with all his bespoke reviews rank in this list?

 

[doghouse]

Francis Bown is a legend.

 

[formby002]

The O-riginal Grifter, Grifter with a CAPITAL G.

 

[Kingstonian]

How does that English chap Bown who had his own website with all his bespoke reviews rank in this list?

He got found out.

 

[Kingstonian]

But we do know that is a lie because he once posted about how much stuff he had in 2003, and some of his numbers were far more than that. As l said, he greatly underestimated in that article how much stuff he really had. For eg, he had twice that many shoes.


The BIG Daddies on the net - the early years
Grayson was the first BIG daddy. Smoothjazz was the second of the BIG daddies closely followed by Ed Hayes, but Grayson was the big grand daddy of daddies, he had the presence and he ruled the roost in the early days, and everyone knew he was `the daddy'. When he talked everyone would listen. In the beginning he was the guy.

T4phage (phage-monster) was a big daddy too in the early days, and still is, but his pedigree isn't as pure as the old school big daddies because he has ego where-as the true big daddies take it all in their stride. He was one of the first daddies high up on the ladder in the early days. @Truth sounded like a big daddy too, but he wasn't in the league of those HUGE big daddies that were there in the beginning.

Gary Tok is one of the new big daddies, and he has played the role to very high levels. One would think he had been a daddy all his life.

I think we should start a thread called `History of the BIG daddies', and we can talk about all the BIG daddies on the clothing forums and how they shaped the forums. Those big daddies played a significant role in shaping the forums and the role igents would play to this very day. Style forum wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't for the BIG daddies.

“I think we should start a thread called `History of the BIG daddies', and we can talk about all the BIG daddies on the clothing forums and how they shaped the forums”

Please do. You know more about them than most. I am not even sure what the definition of ‘big daddy’ is.

William Wardrobe had lots of stuff and always travelled with a steamer trunk even for weekend breaks. I don’t think he is included in the term though. Manton had a lot to say but I don’t think he was referenced either.

 

[Kingstonian]

There was voxsartoria too. He always looked well turned out.

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

There was voxsartoria too. He always looked well turned out.

Remember the name, but not the look.

 

[doghouse]

Remember the name, but not the look.

Steed as far as the eye can see.

He still posts on Insta all the time if anyone wants to follow him,

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

Steed as far as the eye can see.

He still posts on Insta all the time if anyone wants to follow him,

The Insta account is excellent...looking through it now...was he the chap who's father was in Vietnam and he himself had a brush with cancer several years ago? I think he had been in the military too. He had a lot of writing on the web back in 2009/10/11.

 

[The Shooman]

There was voxsartoria too. He always looked well turned out.

Vox was never a big daddy, he lacked the character needed. Same with Aportney and Francis Bown. All three never had what it took to have that honoured title. A big daddy is a special breed of man, and there are not that many of them. Men are born to play the role, you can't try to become one. Only certain men are able to do it.

Immit (Iammatt) was kind of a big daddy. Snubbed English shoes and always talked up italian clothes and shoes. Interesting man.

 

[belinmad]

I am not even sure what the definition of ‘big daddy’ is.

this, +1

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

this, +1

As I've posted previously, Big Daddy is very much a Southern USA phenomena. Linguistically and historically.

The Talking Heads had ago too:

 

[formby002]

I think shoosta is referring to those Sartorial Colossi who originally be-strode the clothing fora crushing pretenders under their well shod feet...

No-quarter was given...

 

[doghouse]

olo.

 

[formby002]

Scary stuff...

 

[The Shooman]

I think shoosta is referring to those Sartorial Colossi who originally be-strode the clothing fora crushing pretenders under their well shod feet...

No-quarter was given...

Exactly!

Few big daddies, loads of pretenders.
They might look the same on the outside, but they are world's apart.
The big daddies don't need to show off to people on the internet, but the pretenders do (little insecure boys trying to big note themselves to strangers).

I like big daddies, they are good blokes.

 

[Kingstonian]

‘Sartorial Colossi who originally be-strode the clothing fora crushing pretenders under their well shod feet...

No-quarter was given...’

The second opinion was very helpful.

I would have been none the wiser from the words they were ‘good blokes’.

 

[The Shooman]

A BIG daddy
the definition in the context of clothing forums (the pure-bloods)

* A man who appreciated and was into high quality clothes/shoos before he ever posted on clothing forums

* A man who buys the best stuff because he is into clothes, ie, is prepared to pay the big bucks because he UNDERSTANDS quality.

* A man who knows what he wants and what he likes, he doesn't need forums to inspire him or teach him his own style. He doesn't buy for the sake of buying stuff, he has a real appreciation of what he buys, ie, he buys with purpose and with love. A big daddy is his own man.

* A man who doesn't need to show off to people on the internet. If the internet shut down tomorrow he would still happily continue his love of clothes quietly.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Note: those igents who start buying lots of expensive clothes and suits when they join a forum are NOT big daddies. They are Johnny-come-lately types, ie, they are nobodies. They are a flash in the pan, and they are forum made men instead of self made men. Their foundations are weak because it is based on something outside of themselves (it does not come from them, it comes from the forums), and many of these types don't really know what they want so they buy lots of stuff to compensate for being clueless.

Walker and myself are big daddies of the `shoo world'. Why? Because we have been doing it all our lives. We have shoos in our blood, ie, we loved shoos as kids, we are born with it (pure-bloods). We pay for quality and don't balk at the price because we understand what it is all about. We don't need to show off.

Note: the most pure are the ones who are born with it. From a very young age they desire nothing but the best clothing/shoos. Those guys are extremely rare and l feel lucky to be in that distinguished group of shoomen.

 

[Kingstonian]

Heck, if I quote selectively I could make the case for Cruiser from AAAC to be included :-

A man who knows what he wants and what he likes, he doesn't need forums to inspire him or teach him his own style. He doesn't buy for the sake of buying stuff, he has a real appreciation of what he buys, ie, he buys with purpose and with love. A big daddy is his own man.

* A man who doesn't need to show off to people on the internet. If the internet shut down tomorrow he would still happily continue his love of clothes quietly.

 

[The Shooman]

Heck, if I quote selectively I could make the case for Cruiser from AAAC to be included :-

A man who knows what he wants and what he likes, he doesn't need forums to inspire him or teach him his own style. He doesn't buy for the sake of buying stuff, he has a real appreciation of what he buys, ie, he buys with purpose and with love. A big daddy is his own man.

* A man who doesn't need to show off to people on the internet. If the internet shut down tomorrow he would still happily continue his love of clothes quietly.

Cruiser doesn't fit all the definitions. A big daddy can only qualify on all points. Most men can never claim the title of BIG daddy because it is something few are qualified for. It is a title `for the few'.

Kingstonian, please do not erode the title of Big daddy to something so common. That is not the way things are meant to be done, and it tells me you don't understand the finer points of being a BIG daddy because you don't move in those circles or you are not part of that world. The way you applied the title to Cruiser was so crude and flippant, and it made me cringe. Cruiser was far from a big daddy, he wasn't even a big daddies bootlace. To call him a big daddy is an insult to big daddies.

 

[doghouse]

OLO.

 

[formby002]

Cruiser doesn't fit all the definitions. A big daddy can only qualify on all points. Most men can never claim the title of BIG daddy because it is something few are qualified for. It is a title `for the few'.

Kingstonian, please do not erode the title of Big daddy to something so common. That is not the way things are meant to be done, and it tells me you don't understand the finer points of being a BIG daddy because you don't move in those circles or you are not part of that world. The way you applied the title to Cruiser was so crude and flippant, and it made me cringe. Cruiser was far from a big daddy, he wasn't even a big daddies bootlace. To call him a big daddy is an insult to big daddies.

Wasn't Crusier the twat with the Mickey Mouse watch? Why on earth would somebody like him join a clothing forum.

 

[formby002]

We need a definitive list of Big Daddies...

 

[ASSHAT]

We need a definitive list of Big Daddies...

Other than Grayson and Shooman the rest are open to debate.

 

[Thruth]

Other than Grayson and Shooman the rest are open to debate.

such an exclusive list!

 

[ASSHAT]

such an exclusive list!

Maybe FNB too. He totally smashed those idiots on SF and was uncompromising about his version of English style. Although I found him to later be a bit less interesting i guess it was very nice of him to open a forum up for all you misfits.

T4Phage also had an extraordinary influence on the Euro scene in the early days for both suits and shoos. His cryptic posting style was also legendary. Heard he was a fairly lousy dresser in real life though.

 

[sirloin]

From what I have come across, teh oldest T4 posts aren't cryptic. Wondering when his posting style changed,
I thought he was a yankee, not a euro?

 

[formby002]

Maybe FNB too. He totally smashed those idiots on SF and was uncompromising about his version of English style. Although I found him to later be a bit less interesting i guess it was very nice of him to open a forum up for all you misfits.

T4Phage also had an extraordinary influence on the Euro scene in the early days for both suits and shoos. His cryptic posting style was also legendary. Heard he was a fairly lousy dresser in real life though.

I found his posting style irritating, more irritating than my own.

 

[formby002]

I was thinking of nominating RSS, even though I know he would find being called a 'big daddy' amusing, he was more an aesthete.

Still, he had an impressive collection of SR tailoring.

 

[Thruth]

I found his posting style irritating, more irritating than my own.

'orses for courses?

 

[formby002]

'orses for courses?

Aye...

 

[Thruth]

Maybe FNB too. He totally smashed those idiots on SF and was uncompromising about his version of English style. Although I found him to later be a bit less interesting i guess it was very nice of him to open a forum up for all you misfits.

T4Phage also had an extraordinary influence on the Euro scene in the early days for both suits and shoos. His cryptic posting style was also legendary. Heard he was a fairly lousy dresser in real life though.

If you go back to the earliest archived discussions there was good information and far less brand whoring. Far fewer pictures too.

 

[doghouse]

Maybe FNB too.

FNB wasn't (and still isn't) going for the outrageous overconsumption though. He and I actually have very similar interest in the philosophy of clothing and aesthetics.

 

[doghouse]

I found his posting style irritating, more irritating than my own.

Unpossible.

 

[Walter]

From what I have come across, teh oldest T4 posts aren't cryptic. Wondering when his posting style changed,
I thought he was a yankee, not a euro?

Neither euro nor yankee. He went to university in the states though

 

[Kingstonian]

A BIG daddy
the definition in the context of clothing forums (the pure-bloods)

* A man who appreciated and was into high quality clothes/shoos before he ever posted on clothing forums

* A man who buys the best stuff because he is into clothes, ie, is prepared to pay the big bucks because he UNDERSTANDS quality.

* A man who knows what he wants and what he likes, he doesn't need forums to inspire him or teach him his own style. He doesn't buy for the sake of buying stuff, he has a real appreciation of what he buys, ie, he buys with purpose and with love. A big daddy is his own man.

* A man who doesn't need to show off to people on the internet. If the internet shut down tomorrow he would still happily continue his love of clothes quietly.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Note: those igents who start buying lots of expensive clothes and suits when they join a forum are NOT big daddies. They are Johnny-come-lately types, ie, they are nobodies. They are a flash in the pan, and they are forum made men instead of self made men. Their foundations are weak because it is based on something outside of themselves (it does not come from them, it comes from the forums), and many of these types don't really know what they want so they buy lots of stuff to compensate for being clueless.

Walker and myself are big daddies of the `shoo world'. Why? Because we have been doing it all our lives. We have shoos in our blood, ie, we loved shoos as kids, we are born with it (pure-bloods). We pay for quality and don't balk at the price because we understand what it is all about. We don't need to show off.

Note: the most pure are the ones who are born with it. From a very young age they desire nothing but the best clothing/shoos. Those guys are extremely rare and l feel lucky to be in that distinguished group of shoomen.

“Walker and myself are big daddies of the `shoo world'.” Great scene where Walker leaves the airport. Big shoes too!