Brexit - The UK and the EU

güero

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More like they bluffed and their bluff was called. Then they huffed and puffed which made the current shambles look even more ridiculous. You don't have any negotiating power after that.
It's not a bluff if the other side knows your hand.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Intriguing that the Remainers are trying to skewer Boris on ''motives'' in the courts. Worked in Scotland with the help of some 13th century precedent, gone down like the proverbial lead zeppelin elsewhere. I cannot perceive a tactic used by Stalin will ultimately prevail in the British High Court.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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So the courts say Boris was wrong. I guess they are in on it too.
What seems like a tactical victory, is likely a strategic disaster for Remain. Same as the meaningful vote on May's surrender treaty.

When you have to utilize precedents from 1611, your position might unravel under the realpolitik of 2019. Still, the arachnid broach was a cute touch.
 

Scherensammler

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What seems like a tactical victory, is likely a strategic disaster for Remain. Same as the meaningful vote on May's surrender treaty.

When you have to utilize precedents from 1611, your position might unravel under the realpolitik of 2019. Still, the arachnid broach was a cute touch.
Well, the majority of voters in the UK will have lost all trust in the political system by now.
Not much better elsewhere, though.
Labour can tell itself it will win the next election, but I'm sure they'll get a nasty surprise in the next GE.
Same with the Libdems. All a bunch of turncoats.
Parliament will be back tomorrow to discuss Brexit a bit more. Like 3 1/2 years weren't enough.
At least the GBP went up again, yay!
 

Rambo

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What seems like a tactical victory, is likely a strategic disaster for Remain. Same as the meaningful vote on May's surrender treaty.

When you have to utilize precedents from 1611, your position might unravel under the realpolitik of 2019. Still, the arachnid broach was a cute touch.
Yes much better to have to talk to the 90 year old monarch completely disconnected from society as a whole.
 

foxandhound

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What seems like a tactical victory, is likely a strategic disaster for Remain. Same as the meaningful vote on May's surrender treaty.

When you have to utilize precedents from 1611, your position might unravel under the realpolitik of 2019. Still, the arachnid broach was a cute touch.
What a spoofer.


Been hanging out with some horses recently? Pimpernel Smith
 

Kingstonian

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Well, the majority of voters in the UK will have lost all trust in the political system by now.
Not much better elsewhere, though.
Labour can tell itself it will win the next election, but I'm sure they'll get a nasty surprise in the next GE.
Same with the Libdems. All a bunch of turncoats.
Parliament will be back tomorrow to discuss Brexit a bit more. Like 3 1/2 years weren't enough.
At least the GBP went up again, yay!
If Conservatives fail on Brexit they will go the way of The Whigs.

I suspect no party will command a majority in a General Election and there will be alliances and more bickering
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Yes much better to have to talk to the 90 year old monarch completely disconnected from society as a whole.
The monarch hasn't stepped-in and whilst she still does formally possess such powers, as a constitutional monarch this is largely ceremonial and is bound by constitutional convention and government advice. Her role, as of yet, is not that of a player.

Or it's just the court reading the law and has nothing to do with this imaginary battle you've conceived.
The legal challenge was brought by anti-Brexit factions with Gina Miller citing her usual tropes about democracy, the constitution and parliamantary supremacy, but really it is all about Remain. It was a political act.

What a spoofer.
Not really, the Miller v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union resulted in May's deal/surrender deal being voted on in parliament. If it wasn't for Miller we would already have BRINO. So that tactical win, translated into a later strategic defeat.

Been hanging out with some horses recently? Pimpernel Smith
Only Deano and Red Norvo:


If Conservatives fail on Brexit they will go the way of The Whigs.
None of the old parties are going to survive this in present forms.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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The eminent John Redwood:

The battles so far over Brexit have concerned the need for an Act of Parliament to send the letter of notification of withdrawal, and the refusal of prorogation owing to the importance of the Brexit issue. The biggest clash lies ahead. The government claims it has authority to take the UK out of the EU on 31 October. There are two Acts of Parliament to that effect, a referendum vote and the 2017 Election result. It is the government’s job to negotiate a possible new Withdrawal Agreement and to decide on a No deal or a Withdrawal deal exit. Some in Parliament say its European Withdrawal Act No 2 trumps the other two pieces of legislation and expects the Courts to enforce its requirement of the Prime Minister to seek a further delay in our exit. Is it good law to demand a PM to do the opposite of his promises and Manifesto? How are its terms enforceable?

 

fxh

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Have you watched any of the Dean Martin Shows on Youtube? You couldn't be that brilliantly careless and regardless of perfection these days. It feels more modern than now!
I hate all the melismatic over singing these days.
No one can do it like those older singers. Frank, Sammy, Dean, Bobby Darin, Mel Torme, Sarah Vaughn, Anita O'Day, Odetta....
 

Pimpernel Smith

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''Clause 40 of Magna Carta promises that justice will not be denied or delayed or sold. We have just seen something much worse: our very constitution and political traditions bought and sold to the highest bidder....''

 

Kingstonian

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Boris latest letter is not really Brexit. It is just avoiding the backstop. Some of the EU do not even like that.

Boris says UK is leaving with or without a deal. We will soon see how that works out.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Boris latest letter is not really Brexit.
It's there, subtle, measured and in cool tones designed to make the EU technocracy throw a hissy-fit and for the Remainers in the UK to deny they've even read it, which is exactly what has happened. Even the poisoned dwarf in the Commons has lost his voice. Fear not gentle reader, the decisive moment approaches.....
 

Kingstonian

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“Boris, binning the Backstop still isn’t Brexit” Here are 12 simple reasons
1. This Agreement – even without the ‘Backstop’ - will put the UK under the de facto jurisdiction of a group of 27
foreign powers, leaving the UK powerless to veto laws or procedures affecting the UK and its citizens. (Articles 4, 86, 87, 89, 132, 168, 174)
2. The EU27 can make decisions behind closed doors which can profoundly affect British businesses, citizens, and the economy. They can impose new taxes on the UK and prevent state aid, crippling vital industries as well as the UK’s all-important financial sector. Parliament will be able to do nothing about it. (Articles 86, 93, 95, 132 (2c), 159)
3. It gives the EU an effective veto on our foreign policy too. We will not be allowed to undertake “any action or initiative” which the EU thinks might damage the EU's interests, and it positions UK defence under the EU Global Strategy, threatening our position in the ‘Five Eyes’ intelligence alliance, and unacceptably constraining our freedom of action on the world stage. (Articles 129, 132, 156-157)
4. Any amended Northern Ireland Protocol will impose existing and new Single Market rules, with no UK say over them, and it will effectively split off Northern Ireland, breaking the United Kingdom in two. (Protocol Ireland/NI, esp. Art.6)
No taking back control
5. The UK will remain under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. This will last during ‘transition’ and the agreement makes provision to extend this until 01 Jan 2023. (Articles 4, 6(2), 87, 95, 128, 132, 158, 168, 174)
6. In some parts of the law, British courts will have to obey the EU’s courts for over 100 years. (Article 39)
7. We will have no control of our waters for the UK’s fishermen and we will not be able to make ourselves more
competitive on the world stage for our industry or service sectors. (Articles 130, 185 (Art. 6 of the NI Protocol); Article 129 (7)) No trade deals, a continuation of the trade deficit, and continuing to subsidise the EU27
8. The UK will have no right to do international free trade deals – a key economic benefit of Brexit – because it must stick to protectionist EU tariffs. The British public will not benefit from an independent trade policy, which would result in cheaper imported goods and stronger exports. (Articles 40-49, 75-78, 127, 129 (4), 132)
9. The EU can do new free trade agreements with other countries, and the UK will have to match the new lower tariffs, but the countries involved will not have to offer the new low tariffs to the UK. (See 8. above)
10. Instead, our £100bn annual trade deficit with the EU will continue – a deficit which means lost jobs and lost money which could be spent on services, infrastructure and investment at home.
11. The Agreement will mean the UK paying the biggest divorce settlement in history, over £39 billion, with no new UK-EU trade deal in return. The final amount will be decided by the EU, with no say by the UK. (138-144, 152-155)
This is not Brexit in any way, shape, or form, and doesn’t even give us a trade deal
12. The Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration – even without ‘the Backstop’ - lock the UK into a continuing and subservient relationship with the EU, agreeing to match and ‘build upon’ current arrangements, giving away money, sovereignty, laws, and even decisions on the very composition of the United Kingdom itself.
The UK will not be a truly sovereign nation until we leave the EU completely. A clean-break Brexit is now the only way to go forward.
For more on this go to https://facts4eu.org/news/2019_sep_brexit_fightback_1
 

Pimpernel Smith

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3,434


“Boris, binning the Backstop still isn’t Brexit” Here are 12 simple reasons
1. This Agreement – even without the ‘Backstop’ - will put the UK under the de facto jurisdiction of a group of 27
foreign powers, leaving the UK powerless to veto laws or procedures affecting the UK and its citizens. (Articles 4, 86, 87, 89, 132, 168, 174)
2. The EU27 can make decisions behind closed doors which can profoundly affect British businesses, citizens, and the economy. They can impose new taxes on the UK and prevent state aid, crippling vital industries as well as the UK’s all-important financial sector. Parliament will be able to do nothing about it. (Articles 86, 93, 95, 132 (2c), 159)
3. It gives the EU an effective veto on our foreign policy too. We will not be allowed to undertake “any action or initiative” which the EU thinks might damage the EU's interests, and it positions UK defence under the EU Global Strategy, threatening our position in the ‘Five Eyes’ intelligence alliance, and unacceptably constraining our freedom of action on the world stage. (Articles 129, 132, 156-157)
4. Any amended Northern Ireland Protocol will impose existing and new Single Market rules, with no UK say over them, and it will effectively split off Northern Ireland, breaking the United Kingdom in two. (Protocol Ireland/NI, esp. Art.6)
No taking back control
5. The UK will remain under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. This will last during ‘transition’ and the agreement makes provision to extend this until 01 Jan 2023. (Articles 4, 6(2), 87, 95, 128, 132, 158, 168, 174)
6. In some parts of the law, British courts will have to obey the EU’s courts for over 100 years. (Article 39)
7. We will have no control of our waters for the UK’s fishermen and we will not be able to make ourselves more
competitive on the world stage for our industry or service sectors. (Articles 130, 185 (Art. 6 of the NI Protocol); Article 129 (7)) No trade deals, a continuation of the trade deficit, and continuing to subsidise the EU27
8. The UK will have no right to do international free trade deals – a key economic benefit of Brexit – because it must stick to protectionist EU tariffs. The British public will not benefit from an independent trade policy, which would result in cheaper imported goods and stronger exports. (Articles 40-49, 75-78, 127, 129 (4), 132)
9. The EU can do new free trade agreements with other countries, and the UK will have to match the new lower tariffs, but the countries involved will not have to offer the new low tariffs to the UK. (See 8. above)
10. Instead, our £100bn annual trade deficit with the EU will continue – a deficit which means lost jobs and lost money which could be spent on services, infrastructure and investment at home.
11. The Agreement will mean the UK paying the biggest divorce settlement in history, over £39 billion, with no new UK-EU trade deal in return. The final amount will be decided by the EU, with no say by the UK. (138-144, 152-155)
This is not Brexit in any way, shape, or form, and doesn’t even give us a trade deal
12. The Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration – even without ‘the Backstop’ - lock the UK into a continuing and subservient relationship with the EU, agreeing to match and ‘build upon’ current arrangements, giving away money, sovereignty, laws, and even decisions on the very composition of the United Kingdom itself.
The UK will not be a truly sovereign nation until we leave the EU completely. A clean-break Brexit is now the only way to go forward.
For more on this go to https://facts4eu.org/news/2019_sep_brexit_fightback_1
Boris was using the backstop as spring board for other discussions, he made clear in the letter, we're leaving and there will be no legislative continuation or later convergence. The EU believe the machinations of the poisoned dwarf and the Supreme Court will trump the democratic will of the people and they just need to hang-on. Guess again.
 

Fwiffo

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Boris was using the backstop as spring board for other discussions, he made clear in the letter, we're leaving and there will be no legislative continuation or later convergence. The EU believe the machinations of the poisoned dwarf and the Supreme Court will trump the democratic will of the people and they just need to hang-on. Guess again.
Who's the poisoned dwarf?
 

Kingstonian

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Boris was using the backstop as spring board for other discussions, he made clear in the letter, we're leaving and there will be no legislative continuation or later convergence. The EU believe the machinations of the poisoned dwarf and the Supreme Court will trump the democratic will of the people and they just need to hang-on. Guess again.
I do not know what Boris is up to, or whether he really wants to leave with No Deal.

There was talk that he was hoping a Hungarian veto on a Brexit extension would help him out.

Whether he has a cunning plan or is just bluffing remains to be seen. Trust is in short supply after Mrs. May.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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All hail the God Emperor Speaker Bercow:


 
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Fwiffo

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The Queen says the government's priority "has always been to secure the United Kingdom's departure from the European Union on the 31 October".
 

sirloin

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I was in Edinburgh last week. Nice place. Should I have stayed, to participate in the constitutional shenanigans coming up?
 

Pimpernel Smith

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I was in Edinburgh last week. Nice place. Should I have stayed, to participate in the constitutional shenanigans coming up?
By all means do, especially as a mainland European, it is after all your entitlement as a non-Brit. But as I remember, the EU collectively shit a brick with the contemplation of adding another non-contributing state to the empire. They're going nowhere.

The Remainers are being boxed-in, the EU has disowned them, what happens next may well be like Jonestown 1979 when they have to accept the shame of defeat as fanatics.

Do you think the Blairite constructions haven't been gamed in? Any so called constitutional shenanigans will be ruthlessly slapped down this time.

They were allowed to get away with it once to expose Spider Woman and her Common Purpose ilk.

Now the serious adults take over.
 

Pimpernel Smith

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Looks like Bercow won't given them the vote!

The three letters was a good tactic, but what now my love?

This is a good piece worthy of a read on the current clerisy:

 

Scherensammler

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Looks like Bercow won't given them the vote!

The three letters was a good tactic, but what now my love?

This is a good piece worthy of a read on the current clerisy:

Great article, though a bit hard to comprehend for a foreign pleb like myself...
The author is right about the victimhood. On BBC radio (and I'm sure TV, too) you get that all the time.
Latest version was being a "victim" of Northern Rail cancelling trains or running them with delays.
With regards to Johnson and others, I'm always worried when I hear him utter lines like "the most globalist country"! Words also used by Theresa May back in the day!
 

Fwiffo

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I thought Bercow resigned? Or at least I read he was stepping down from the circus at the earliest possible time. I would have assumed a new PM would appoint another one.
 
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