Fall of Afghanistan

[Grand Potentate]

Yeah, no. It's the people. We are a land of cargo short wearing Applebee's eating Target shopping shitheads.

and what would you have us do? honestly. you have to have realized that our "votes" mean absolutely nothing at all. it was proven that our leaders lied to get us into the war to begin with. lets not pretend that the entire society is specifically set up to have "democracy" eliminated at every turn.

 

[doghouse]

Again, it's your elites (and Britain's) who cannot lead, who have no talent, are obsessed with presentation, who blows in the wind ready to attach to any fashionable nonsense that gets them some media coverage, is unserious, and unfit to govern.

Which makes them a manifestation of us, just as I have been saying. You are just proving my point.

 

[doghouse]

and what would you have us do? honestly. you have to have realized that our "votes" mean absolutely nothing at all. it was proven that our leaders lied to get us into the war to begin with. lets not pretend that the entire society is specifically set up to have "democracy" eliminated at every turn.

I'd have us not be terrible. This doesn't even have anything to do with democracy or politics for that matter. It's cultural.

 

[formby002]

Which makes them a manifestation of us, just as I have been saying. You are just proving my point.

Well, does the culture make the people or, do the people make the culture?

 

[doghouse]

Well, does the culture make the people or, do the people make the culture?

In a macro sense, the latter obviously. Everyone does both to some degree, some are more influenced, some do the influencing. But it's all driven on over the millennia by the people.

 

[Grand Potentate]

I'd have us not be terrible. This doesn't even have anything to do with democracy or politics for that matter. It's cultural.

Hang on. The culture of what exactly? We got rid of the draft for this precise reason - everyone wanted to go to the mall instead. After Vietnam, it’s been hands off when it comes to day-to-day life. This is what our parents made the country. Hell we don’t even show the dead bodies coming home from war. It’s all just happening “over there”, which is precisely what our leaders and elites want. This way they’re free to do whatever the fuck they want - kill civilians, bomb wedding parties, deal heroin, all away from the watchful eye of the American public.

 

[doghouse]

It’s all just happening “over there”, which is precisely what our leaders and elites want

Dude it's what we want. Not the "elites". We want to sit in our comfort and makes stupid threads like this bemoaning the plight of the Afghan people while never having to do any actual sacrifice ourselves after we wrapped ourselves in the flag 20 years ago and demanded retribution for 9/11 and then promptly forgot the fuck all about it.

 

[formby002]

In a macro sense, the latter obviously. Everyone does both to some degree, some are more influenced, some do the influencing. But it's all driven on over the millennia by the people.

Well, your previous postings suggest that you believe it's more the former, than the latter. No matter, it's a philosophical question.

Anyway, I believe the elites in both our countries no longer reflect their respective cultures and haven't for at least 30 years, in some cases, they despise it and in others openly hostile to it. Both Trump and Brexit are outcomes of this disconnected elite.

The late Christopher Lasch wrote about this 30 yrs ago. Very perceptive writer and prescient in my opinion.

 

[formby002]

 

[doghouse]

Anyway, I believe the elites in both our countries no longer reflect their respective cultures and haven't for at least 30 years, in some cases, they despise it and in others openly hostile to it.

In that case I believe you don't know our countries and their respective cultures. We have provided the environment for this to happen. It didn't spontaneously spring from the primordial ooze.

This all just keeps underlining what I'm saying anyway, the bogeyman elites, the people kept down. It's all just excusing our own failure. We don't exercise agency because we are tranquilized with comfortable consumer culture of where we experience no real consequence, then scream into the wind about how unfair all our trials and tribulations are.

At any rate it goes way beyond Afghanistan. This is something I've been pointing out for decades, and it's only getting worse. The western middle class is just a conglomerate of overgrown children.

 

[doghouse]

Oh noes, the elites are keeping us down.

 

[formby002]

In that case I believe you don't know our countries and their respective cultures. We have provided the environment for this to happen. It didn't spontaneously spring from the primordial ooze.

This all just keeps underlining what I'm saying anyway, the bogeyman elites, the people kept down. It's all just excusing our own failure. We don't exercise agency because we are tranquilized with comfortable consumer culture of where we experience no real consequence, then scream into the wind about how unfair all our trials and tribulations are.

At any rate it goes way beyond Afghanistan. This is something I've been pointing out for decades, and it's only getting worse. The western middle class is just a conglomerate of overgrown children.

I'm not saying that the 'elites' are keeping anyone down, what I'm saying is that they have become detached from those they wish to represent.

 

[doghouse]

I've got a bunch of worthless white moms with no meaningful troubles in life going to school board meetings and mocking children (children!!) who want masks for their safety. And I mean mocking them to their face in public. They are planning protests on the first day of school, inflicting god knows what trauma on the kids then.

 

[doghouse]

Nobody is saying that the 'elites' are keeping anyone down, what I'm saying is that they have become detached from those they wish to represent.

Well I don't completely disagree with that. But there is an important and distinct difference between saying "These people are doing a shit job" and "It's all their fault".

The whole notion of "elites" though is just some laughable bogeyman.

 

[formby002]

Well I don't completely disagree with that. But there is an important and distinct difference between saying "These people are doing a shit job" and "It's all their fault".

The whole notion of "elites" though is just some laughable bogeyman.

Well, the concept of an elite isn't a bogeyman. Every country has them. It comprises those who run the country and its institutions it's not some secret society. In Britain, it's often referred to as The Establishment.

The Establishment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[doghouse]

Well, the concept of an elite isn't a bogeyman. Every country has them. It comprises those who run the country and its institutions it's not some secret society. In Britain, it's often referred to as The Establishment.

The Establishment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes, I know, "The Man"


Anyway, back on topic

 

[Grand Potentate]

View attachment 40659

War room Tom isn’t exactly the best source on this.

Dude it's what we want. Not the "elites". We want to sit in our comfort and makes stupid threads like this bemoaning the plight of the Afghan people while never having to do any actual sacrifice ourselves after we wrapped ourselves in the flag 20 years ago and demanded retribution for 9/11 and then promptly forgot the fuck all about it.

Right but what choice do you have? Sign up to fight in a war we all know is dumb?
Also, we don’t even care about other Americans much less a bunch of foreign Muslims.

Well I don't completely disagree with that. But there is an important and distinct difference between saying "These people are doing a shit job" and "It's all their fault".

The whole notion of "elites" though is just some laughable bogeyman.

Again, you’re ascribing blame to regular Americans, but what could we have possibly done? What could we do now? All of this take place entirely out of our control.

 

[Lobbster]

In that case I believe you don't know our countries and their respective cultures. We have provided the environment for this to happen. It didn't spontaneously spring from the primordial ooze.

This all just keeps underlining what I'm saying anyway, the bogeyman elites, the people kept down. It's all just excusing our own failure. We don't exercise agency because we are tranquilized with comfortable consumer culture of where we experience no real consequence, then scream into the wind about how unfair all our trials and tribulations are.

At any rate it goes way beyond Afghanistan. This is something I've been pointing out for decades, and it's only getting worse. The western middle class is just a conglomerate of overgrown children.

So what do you suggest? I'm honestly curious.

 

[Fwiffo]

I believe he suggested I shouldn't post alarmist things from the comfort of bourgeois western culture.

Blame can't be shifted to the elites and those in power because we, the people, knowing or unknowingly let them run the course of the events. Then we post about it on TikTok where we want to appear to everyone that we care for X seconds until we see an advert on a new consumer bauble and we tap on that with equal glee.

Hypocrisy. Lack of authenticity and general immaturity in the vast majority of people's weltanschauung.

I think I summed it up.

 

[doghouse]

Again, you’re ascribing blame to regular Americans, but what could we have possibly done? What could we do now?

Well, not outsource our troubles for starters. We literally created this monster. Like I said, the current political situation didn't spring from the primordial ooze.

All of this take place entirely out of our control.

This is nonsense. We can stop the merry go round whenever we want. I will tell you a little story why. An old friend of my wife and I was the biggest peacenik, peace sign wearing, Obama loving liberal fair trade supporting Beatles fan you ever met. Graduated college on the Tommy Boy timeline with a degree in Fashion & Design Marketing. Somewhere along the way she got a job for ADS, who is a local company here that originally was a commercial dive gear provider. They began to outfit the SEALS on contract, then with the GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR™ parlayed that into all sorts of insane military contracts that go along with that which rob the rest of us for billions to line the pockets of a few defense industry cronies. After awhile, she networked that job to a job with Sig Sauer, the firearms manufacturer. I got great stories about how US CBP are so stupid they have to give them unloaded guns so they didn't shoot themselves. Now, 11,000 dead mass shooting victims later, she is the most fervent "It's not the guns it's the people" and "I have to pay my bills somehow" person you have ever met. Nevermind she easily can pay her mortgage with a regular job. It's greed and weakness, nothing else. Every single person along the way in this anecdote is the reason, anyone who participates in this particular ponzi scheme of the military industrial complex. It's not elites, or the man, or what the fuck ever thing you want to assign besides the fact we are toddlers, but the fact is it's complete caused by normal people partaking in this. I know plenty of the people involve in everything I just wrote, they aren't fucking elites in any way shape or form. They are just shitheads.

This is just a single anecdote, this plays out every day by millions of Americans across every nook and cranny of our lives. Be it corruption or just my neighbor voting for Trump and Republicans because he talks mean about brown people and the gays. This is how we enable it to go on and it is totally our fault.

So what do you suggest? I'm honestly curious.

I wish I knew Lobbster. If people aren't willing to take agency in their own lives and sacrifice short term comfort for long term gain, then there's nothing we can do. I mean look at the climate change fiasco. People won't react until it's too late.

I have plenty of things I would love to see us do. And it's tempting to say shit like "make everyone wear a suit and tie every day". But I fundamentally believe we get whatever we make, and I'm a dyed in the wool classic liberal. So while I can give suggestions, it's all just pissing in the wind. I live my life in a self actualized manner and do the best I can. At the end of the day that's all anyone can do.

War room Tom isn’t exactly the best source on this.

I mean I've seen it myself

 

[doghouse]

I believe he suggested I shouldn't post alarmist things from the comfort of bourgeois western culture.

Blame can't be shifted to the elites and those in power because we, the people, knowing or unknowingly let them run the course of the events. Then we post about it on TikTok where we want to appear to everyone that we care for X seconds until we see an advert on a new consumer bauble and we tap on that with equal glee.

Hypocrisy. Lack of authenticity and general immaturity in the vast majority of people's weltanschauung.

I think I summed it up.

Quite well I might add. We do love you regardless.

 

[formby002]

Well, not outsource our troubles for starters. We literally created this monster. Like I said, the current political situation didn't spring from the primordial ooze.



This is nonsense. We can stop the merry go round whenever we want. I will tell you a little story why. An old friend of my wife and I was the biggest peacenik, peace sign wearing, Obama loving liberal fair trade supporting Beatles fan you ever met. Graduated college on the Tommy Boy timeline with a degree in Fashion & Design Marketing. Somewhere along the way she got a job for ADS, who is a local company here that originally was a commercial dive gear provider. They began to outfit the SEALS on contract, then with the GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR™ parlayed that into all sorts of insane military contracts that go along with that which rob the rest of us for billions to line the pockets of a few defense industry cronies. After awhile, she networked that job to a job with Sig Sauer, the firearms manufacturer. I got great stories about how US CBP are so stupid they have to give them unloaded guns so they didn't shoot themselves. Now, 11,000 dead mass shooting victims later, she is the most fervent "It's not the guns it's the people" and "I have to pay my bills somehow" person you have ever met. Nevermind she easily can pay her mortgage with a regular job. It's greed and weakness, nothing else. Every single person along the way in this anecdote is the reason, anyone who participates in this particular ponzi scheme of the military industrial complex. It's not elites, or the man, or what the fuck ever thing you want to assign besides the fact we are toddlers, but the fact is it's complete caused by normal people partaking in this. I know plenty of the people involve in everything I just wrote, they aren't fucking elites in any way shape or form. They are just shitheads.

This is just a single anecdote, this plays out every day by millions of Americans across every nook and cranny of our lives. Be it corruption or just my neighbor voting for Trump and Republicans because he talks mean about brown people and the gays. This is how we enable it to go on and it is totally our fault.



I wish I knew Lobbster. If people aren't willing to take agency in their own lives and sacrifice short term comfort for long term gain, then there's nothing we can do. I mean look at the climate change fiasco. People won't react until it's too late.



I mean I've seen it myself

The war on terror wasn't initiated by the American people it was initiated/justified by the Bush Doctrine which itself was influenced by a cabal of neo-conservatives.

Whilst I agree with you that the American people (and my own) are to a degree infantilised it isn't a new critique. Tom Wolfe wrote about it back in the 70s (The Me Generation/Decade)

Let me ask you a question: Why do you think Trump was voted in?

 

[doghouse]

Tom Wolfe wrote about it back in the 70s (The Me Generation/Decade)

Of course, that's how long this has been going on. I'm not talking about 5, 10, 20 years. This has been half a century of choices that's led to Bush and Trump.

Let me ask you a question: Why do you think Trump was voted in?

infantilised

100% this. Full stop. My fee fees are hurt and I'm going to show all you meanies.

I'm sure will posit something about dissatisfaction, not feeling heard, it's the elites failing us or some other thing but it's pure unadulterated infantilism coupled with a quirky electoral system. You must remember a majority of the country didn't vote for him.

 

[formby002]

Leading British 'journalist' weighs in:

 

[doghouse]

Leading British 'journalist' weighs in:

View attachment 40660

Well shit, I was hoping we would at least go a week before these types came out if the woodwork

 

[Dropbear]

Warm fuzzies alert!

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

Leading British 'journalist' weighs in:

View attachment 40660

It's the British equivalent of the ''They seem rather friendly'' moment.

There's a canker in the body politic in both America and the UK. An elite and Establishment as you correctly state that despises it's masses as uncouth and unclean. And at the same time isn't sure of itself and doubts it's mission and wallows in empty virtue signalling, grimaces and gimmicks to maintain the legitimacy of power. To paraphrase Joe Strummer if Al Qaeda flew in today they would send the limousine anyway.

Hence the struggle of the likes of the BBC to maintain an audience as it drifts further and further away from reality.

But perhaps the BBC was always built on lies and disinformation. The scandal of Jimmy Savile and how they groomed Princess Diana and fed her paranoia with lies that everyone in her family were out to get her.

At least there's Andrew Neil:

ANDREW NEIL asks - how can Joe Biden ever recover?

ANDREW NEIL: In U.S. President Joe Biden's speech, his abject surrender to the Taliban was dressed up as political reality and common sense.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Warm fuzzies alert!

Apparently after they finished on the dodgems, they trashed the fun fair, as there can be no joy under the Taliban regime.

 

[Grand Potentate]

I wish I knew Lobbster. If people aren't willing to take agency in their own lives and sacrifice short term comfort for long term gain, then there's nothing we can do. I mean look at the climate change fiasco. People won't react until it's too late.

I have plenty of things I would love to see us do. And it's tempting to say shit like "make everyone wear a suit and tie every day". But I fundamentally believe we get whatever we make, and I'm a dyed in the wool classic liberal. So while I can give suggestions, it's all just pissing in the wind. I live my life in a self actualized manner and do the best I can. At the end of the day that's all anyone can do.

isn't this effectively you just invalidating all of this?

This is nonsense. We can stop the merry go round whenever we want. I will tell you a little story why. An old friend of my wife and I was the biggest peacenik, peace sign wearing, Obama loving liberal fair trade supporting Beatles fan you ever met. Graduated college on the Tommy Boy timeline with a degree in Fashion & Design Marketing. Somewhere along the way she got a job for ADS, who is a local company here that originally was a commercial dive gear provider. They began to outfit the SEALS on contract, then with the GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR™ parlayed that into all sorts of insane military contracts that go along with that which rob the rest of us for billions to line the pockets of a few defense industry cronies. After awhile, she networked that job to a job with Sig Sauer, the firearms manufacturer. I got great stories about how US CBP are so stupid they have to give them unloaded guns so they didn't shoot themselves. Now, 11,000 dead mass shooting victims later, she is the most fervent "It's not the guns it's the people" and "I have to pay my bills somehow" person you have ever met. Nevermind she easily can pay her mortgage with a regular job. It's greed and weakness, nothing else. Every single person along the way in this anecdote is the reason, anyone who participates in this particular ponzi scheme of the military industrial complex. It's not elites, or the man, or what the fuck ever thing you want to assign besides the fact we are toddlers, but the fact is it's complete caused by normal people partaking in this. I know plenty of the people involve in everything I just wrote, they aren't fucking elites in any way shape or form. They are just shitheads.

This is just a single anecdote, this plays out every day by millions of Americans across every nook and cranny of our lives. Be it corruption or just my neighbor voting for Trump and Republicans because he talks mean about brown people and the gays. This is how we enable it to go on and it is totally our fault.

Well, not outsource our troubles for starters. We literally created this monster. Like I said, the current political situation didn't spring from the primordial ooze.

no we've always been a country of cunts. but what do you mean by "outsource our troubles?"

 

[Kingstonian]

Leading British 'journalist' weighs in:

View attachment 40660

Well Taliban PR has certainly improved over the last few decades. (Perhaps they have been on media training courses?)

Even if the reality fails to live up to the words.

 

[fxh]

After the triumph of global capitalism, (the) spirit of collective engagement was repressed, and now this repressed stance seems to return in the guise of religious fundamentalism.

If we really want to change our entire way of life, the individualist “care of the self” which focuses on our use of pleasures will have to be superseded

 

[doghouse]

isn't this effectively you just invalidating all of this?

Uh, no. Diagnosing the problem is a completely different but related conversation to solving it.

no we've always been a country of cunts. but what do you mean by "outsource our troubles?"

It refers to the professionalization of our military, it a pretty common descriptor for it. In and of itself is not a wholly bad thing, as you say it is an outgrowth of Vietnam. But there been volumes written about the myriad problems that have arisen from this. The two big ones germane to this discussion being it's created an almost wholly segregated second society that's the military economy, and Americans are a lot more cavalier about waging war because it's not their sons, daughters, sisters and brothers doing the fighting. The first part is why the military industrial complex and crony capitalism in the defense industry has exploded to astronomical levels. It's not from malign forces or 'elites', it's because of choices we have made as a society.

Just as a sidebar, I think most people on here are aware I know and have relationships with the people I'm speaking of that are involved in that community. I've had several friends deploy to Iraq and Afghanistan, among other regions, and even take part in probably the most famous operation of any of our lives( I'm sure you guys can piece together which one I mean). I see how this works up close and personal in a way that most Americans don't while living in fantasy land in whatever suburbs. While the runaway defense industry isn't the whole problem, its a huge problem because it generates staggering amounts of cash, which then go back to influencing national politicians and thus suppressing your political influence.

 

[formby002]

Uh, no. Diagnosing the problem is a completely different but related conversation to solving it.



It refers to the professionalization of our military, it a pretty common descriptor for it. In and of itself is not a wholly bad thing, as you say it is an outgrowth of Vietnam. But there been volumes written about the myriad problems that have arisen from this. The two big ones germane to this discussion being it's created an almost wholly segregated second society that's the military economy, and Americans are a lot more cavalier about waging war because it's not their sons, daughters, sisters and brothers doing the fighting. The first part is why the military industrial complex and crony capitalism in the defense industry has exploded to astronomical levels. It's not from malign forces or 'elites', it's because of choices we have made as a society.

Just as a sidebar, I think most people on here are aware I know and have relationships with the people I'm speaking of that are involved in that community. I've had several friends deploy to Iraq and Afghanistan, among other regions, and even take part in probably the most famous operation of any of our lives( I'm sure you guys can piece together which one I mean). I see how this works up close and personal in a way that most Americans don't while living in fantasy land in whatever suburbs. While the runaway defense industry isn't the whole problem, its a huge problem because it generates staggering amounts of cash, which then go back to influencing national politicians and thus suppressing your political influence.

Eisenhower warned about this when he was President. I think he actually coined the term Military-Industrial Complex.

 

[doghouse]

Eisenhower warned about this when he was President. I think he actually coined the term Military-Industrial Complex.

Indeed

 

[formby002]

This guy is the Chief of Staff for the British Armed Forces:

 

[doghouse]

Of course they did. It's the fucking Taliban

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

Uh, no. Diagnosing the problem is a completely different but related conversation to solving it.



It refers to the professionalization of our military, it a pretty common descriptor for it. In and of itself is not a wholly bad thing, as you say it is an outgrowth of Vietnam. But there been volumes written about the myriad problems that have arisen from this. The two big ones germane to this discussion being it's created an almost wholly segregated second society that's the military economy, and Americans are a lot more cavalier about waging war because it's not their sons, daughters, sisters and brothers doing the fighting. The first part is why the military industrial complex and crony capitalism in the defense industry has exploded to astronomical levels. It's not from malign forces or 'elites', it's because of choices we have made as a society.

The whole of Washington DC appears run on lobbyists. Every office building I've been in is filled to the brim by various industry representative bodies with the mission of getting support from the government.

The problems of crony capitalism in the military is an issue in the UK as well. Lots of procurement scandals in the MOD and revolving doors from the military direct into arms and armour manufacturers who have a history of delivering design and hardware failures. The latest being the next to useless Ajax tank.

This guy is the Chief of Staff for the British Armed Forces:



View attachment 40676

He's typical of a certain type, fantasies of being a T.E. Lawrence, running around with the Arabs and Pashtuns with a young native boy in tow.

 

[Dropbear]

Everyone is tippingtoeing around the Taliban while evacuation operations are ongoing at the airport. If the Taliban decided to kick the infidels out it would be a bloodbath, with so many civilians packed in there hoping to leave.

 

[doghouse]

Everyone is tippingtoeing around the Taliban while evacuation operations are ongoing at the airport. If the Taliban decided to kick the infidels out it would be a bloodbath, with so many civilians packed in there hoping to leave.

Precisely

 

[formby002]

Everyone is tippingtoeing around the Taliban while evacuation operations are ongoing at the airport. If the Taliban decided to kick the infidels out it would be a bloodbath, with so many civilians packed in there hoping to leave.

That makes sense. Lets hope you're right.

 

[doghouse]

I wonder whatever happened to Rain Man . I'd love to hear his take. I think he was a Ranger